This is now very little ability to disagree with the Left

[marcus]

9 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

Ok, so you are just acting like an opposition party would. Critique and talking is easy but I want to hear policies, what should we (whatever that means) do ? If you can list some concrete solutions, I am curious. Again you are dismissing the individual and creating an attitude of us and them. 

I am not in a position to create 'concrete solutions'. This needs to be done through proper channels with people who understand the situation better and deeper. It must be done in conjunction with the communities who are effected. We must show respect for how they function as societies and communities. We must abandon the engrained mindset that we know best.

There are some initial steps we need to take in full.

Step 1 - Accepting that there is a problem. Unfortunately, there are people who think the issues are not something we should waste our time on and that we should just leave them to figure it out. Look at the post from WestCanMan and he calls people lazy and useless. Many people are still stuck on step 1.
Step 2 - Accepting that how the First Nation were treated during the colonization of this land and actions taken after have had an enormous effect on their culture and the disadvantages that they are in. We're not there yet. As you are seeing on this forum, there are people who still deny this.
Step 3 - Look at the steps we have taken, refine them, remove some of them that only apply a bandaid and introduce better plans.

Those steps need to be taken in order for us to have a chance to succeed in nurturing and helping groups and people out of the cycle.

Quote

And I agree about the cycle, on both sides, this reminded of an event that I shared a few weeks ago:

I have a very good friend of mine that I met through a volunteering position. He is native and struggled with substance abuse when he was on the reservation. He mentioned the amount of hatred daily what he heard about the outside world in there prevented him to get help earlier. He moved by himself to Toronto and now he has his own apartment and works a decent job. 

I am extremely happy for him, I joke with him all the time saying that he was lucky that he did not meet any enlightened social studies degree holder that would tell him that society is the reason he was struggling. He does not fully agree with me haha, but hey, that's why this is one of the greatest country on Earth, we are allowed to disagree.

To me, it's understandable why they have this hatred. Don't you agree? Look at what has been done to them and how our system continues to fail them.

I'm glad that one person was able to get out of the vicious cycle, but a vast majority will not be able to.

Edited June 6, 2020 by marcus

[marcus]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Wrong. You are an "equality of outcome" proponent, which is like rewarding people for being lazy and useless.

Your statement shows that you don't understand the disadvantage and the word priviledge.

Here is a video that might help you understand:

Only a very small percentage of people who are able to overcome the big disadvantage they have in starting life. You calling people "lazy and useless" is why we're not moving forward quick enough to have a better society. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by marcus

[WestCanMan]

7 minutes ago, marcus said:

I get the criticism of the Canadian government's handling of the situation, especially at the very beginning. However, it's baffling that you somehow believe that Trump got it right. This is why I believe you have credibility issues.

You think I have credibility issues because you don't understand what I'm talking about, with regards to Trudeau/Trump/covid.

CTV, CBC and Global are Canadian. They're supposed to hold OUR politicians accountable. When our politicians are making idiotic mistakes that get people killed our MSM is supposed to notice, and they're supposed to care. They should step up and be a voice for Canadians.

What did they do when Dr Tam said masks are bad? They toed the line and said "MASKS ARE BAD!" They didn't think about it from a neutral POV and examine the topic. They didn't wonder why Drs and nurses have worn masks for over a century. They just tried to propagate that narrative.

What did they do when Trump closed off travel from China? (@ eyeball - yes he allowed Americans to come home so it wasn't really a travel ban lol) They followed Trudeau's lead and piled on Trump for "racism". They even quoted sources that said "it might violate international law". They didn't care that Japan and Taiwan also did it. They didn't even mention it at the time, because it was contrary to their narrative of racism as a primary motive. Our MSM was busy trashing Trump instead of thinking. Instead of following conventional wisdom. Age-old wisdom. Common sense. They didn't have our backs, they backed the turd.

Now our MSM is busy trying to mop up Trudeau's mess. Trying to make it like "We did way better than the US!!!! Look at these stats!!!!"

The stats are that if we had America's population, we'd have 67,800 covid deaths, and that's if our population density was still somehow only 1/8th of what America's is. We don't have a NYC subway station with 4.3M riders daily, in a city with the UN headquarters. We didn't have a superbowl during covid. Our airports are 1/10th the size of US airports. The simple fact is, that if you went back in time and put Canada's covid strategy in place in the US, the'd have far more than just 110,000 deaths. 

Our covid laws were STUPID, top to bottom, back to front, just extremely stupid in every way imaginable. We had travellers from covid hotspots flying in just 1 week before we were banned from hiking on remote trails in our own country. 

FYI my position has always been that Donald Trump didn't "get it right". Shinzo Abe got it right. Trump just did better than Trudeau, and our media wasn't only wrong about that, they vilified Trump for doing the right thing. They even vilified him for blocking funding to the WHO, pending an investigation. The WHO had one job - to give the world the right advice during a pandemic. The WHO got outsmarted by Donald Trump. You of all people should think that's reason for an investigation, based on your opinion of Trump.

[Argus]

16 hours ago, marcus said:

There are children who start their lives at a big disadvantage. They start life in poverty and in insecurity and they are not random. Data shows there are specific ethnic/racial groups that have a higher chance of being in poverty. Data also shows that these specific groups have had experienced trauma for at least 1 generation. 

None of this is relevant in Canada except with regard to natives. All the rest of our visible minorities are immigrants and their kids. So if there's poverty among the visible minority population that's due to our immigration industry bringing in so many people without the requisite skillsets to thrive and prosper here.

Native impoverishment is due to an archaic Indian Act which was born an era where no one on either side could even imagine natives living together with whites, and has never been removed because no one can agree on what to replace it with. Getting the agreement of 600 'nations' and now agreement between the hereditary and band chiefs is practically impossible except where they demand more money and more power and less oversight from Ottawa.

Nevertheless, all natives are free to 'emigrate' to Canada, just like millions of others have done. They even have the benefit of speaking the same language and not having to apply.

Quote

In the U.S., the traumatized group is mostly the African American population.

And yet African immigrants do better in American than blacks who are born there. Because they tend to marry, raise children together, value education, and not break the law.

By the way, weren't Jews kind of traumatized just a little bit a generation or two back? Or is that just fiction?

Edited June 6, 2020 by Argus

[WestCanMan]

9 minutes ago, marcus said:

Your statement shows that you don't understand the disadvantage and the word priviledge.

Here is a video that might help you understand:

Only a very small percentage of people who are able to overcome the big disadvantage they have in starting life. You calling people "lazy and useless" is why we're not moving forward quick enough to have a better society. 

I completely understand disadvantage and privilege. That's why I worked hard, saved money, and bought a condo before I had a kid. 

I was in the military and worked in a sawmill. I didn't get $1 to buy my place. My kid will have advantages because of the years of hard work that I put into getting my life in order and that's the way it should be. That's the way it would be in a tribal society, before there was ever such a thing as money. That's life.

Will Smith's kids will have more advantages and opportunities than my kid will too. WS earned it. He chose a tough path, with a very low percentage chance of success, he worked like a mofo, and it paid off. Good for him. Should my kid get all kinds of private tutoring and nice cars, just like his? Nope. I didn't earn that. That's on me. 

You can't have a society of "guaranteed equal outcomes" and still have a creative, individual-friendly environment. Communism doesn't work that way. 

[WestCanMan]

33 minutes ago, taxme said:

 Personally think that Tam is a Chinese communist spy. 

At the very best she's an idiot. I don't know how you can be smart enough to get through med school and still be as dumb as Dr Tam.

[Army Guy]

 

18 hours ago, jacee said:

I stand corrected. I was aware of preferences, not restrictions.

Racism in hiring is systemic and has to be addressed directly. 

These hiring practices where put in place to try and level the playing field, and if you cancel these practices , just how do you solve the problem ? 

[Argus]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

I completely understand disadvantage and privilege. That's why I worked hard, saved money, and bought a condo before I had a kid. 

I was in the military and worked in a sawmill. I didn't get $1 to buy my place. My kid will have advantages because of the years of hard work that I put into getting my life in order and that's the way it should be. That's the way it would be in a tribal society, before there was ever such a thing as money. That's life.

Will Smith's kids will have more advantages and opportunities than my kid will too.

This is the thing about the woke. They're not being honest when they consign all whites to the role of oppressors with the guilt of their ancestors. They don't take into account the dirt-poor white man barely surviving, and they don't take account of the rich black man. You are guilty of having original sin, of having white privilege simply because you are born. Anyone with more than half a brain can see that any privilege is derived from the economic success of ones parents, and that many white parents have none. Go back a hundred years and the vast majority of white people were fighting for their lives trying to feed themselves and their kids and living in miserable hovels. Go back two hundred, five hundred, a thousand years and it was no different for 98% of the white population of Europe. Right up until probably the 1950s most whites worked their asses off to try and survive and provide for their families. My mother grew up in near poverty (what we would call poverty today). Eight kids and a wife looking to my elevator operator grandfather for their support.

And yet the woke crowd refers to this as a history of white privilege.

[marcus]

4 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I completely understand disadvantage and privilege. That's why I worked hard, saved money, and bought a condo before I had a kid. 

I was in the military and worked in a sawmill. I didn't get $1 to buy my place. My kid will have advantages because of the years of hard work that I put into getting my life in order and that's the way it should be. That's the way it would be in a tribal society, before there was ever such a thing as money. That's life.

Will Smith's kids will have more advantages and opportunities than my kid will too. WS earned it. He chose a tough path, with a very low percentage chance of success, he worked like a mofo, and it paid off. Good for him. Should my kid get all kinds of private tutoring and nice cars, just like his? Nope. I didn't earn that. That's on me. 

You can't have a society of "guaranteed equal outcomes" and still have a creative, individual-friendly environment. Communism doesn't work that way. 

I appreciate you sharing that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you probably were not born into a family where your parents were absent, or with a parent who was an addict, with another in prison? Unfortunately, there is a high rate of children who start life in that setting. 

[WestCanMan]

8 minutes ago, marcus said:

I appreciate you sharing that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you probably were not born into a family where your parents were absent, or with a parent who was an addict, with another in prison? Unfortunately, there is a high rate of children who start life in that setting. 

My dad was an alcoholic and died just before he turned 65 from general organ failure. He wasn't violent though, I had a good enough childhood. I lived in a house without running water from gr 8 until I left home, but it wasn't poverty or anything. I always had decent food to eat. 

FWIW I totally support giving underprivileged children a break in life. I just don't go for the total equality of opportunity thing. I think that de-motivates people. Life is tough, and if we don't work hard as a society we will not have a nice country to live in. 

[marcus]

22 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

You think I have credibility issues because you don't understand what I'm talking about, with regards to Trudeau/Trump/covid.

CTV, CBC and Global are Canadian. They're supposed to hold OUR politicians accountable. When our politicians are making idiotic mistakes that get people killed our MSM is supposed to notice, and they're supposed to care. They should step up and be a voice for Canadians.

What did they do when Dr Tam said masks are bad? They toed the line and said "MASKS ARE BAD!" They didn't think about it from a neutral POV and examine the topic. They didn't wonder why Drs and nurses have worn masks for over a century. They just tried to propagate that narrative.

What did they do when Trump closed off travel from China? (@ eyeball - yes he allowed Americans to come home so it wasn't really a travel ban lol) They followed Trudeau's lead and piled on Trump for "racism". They even quoted sources that said "it might violate international law". They didn't care that Japan and Taiwan also did it. They didn't even mention it at the time, because it was contrary to their narrative of racism as a primary motive. Our MSM was busy trashing Trump instead of thinking. Instead of following conventional wisdom. Age-old wisdom. Common sense. They didn't have our backs, they backed the turd.

Now our MSM is busy trying to mop up Trudeau's mess. Trying to make it like "We did way better than the US!!!! Look at these stats!!!!"

The stats are that if we had America's population, we'd have 67,800 covid deaths, and that's if our population density was still somehow only 1/8th of what America's is. We don't have a NYC subway station with 4.3M riders daily, in a city with the UN headquarters. We didn't have a superbowl during covid. Our airports are 1/10th the size of US airports. The simple fact is, that if you went back in time and put Canada's covid strategy in place in the US, the'd have far more than just 110,000 deaths. 

Our covid laws were STUPID, top to bottom, back to front, just extremely stupid in every way imaginable. We had travellers from covid hotspots flying in just 1 week before we were banned from hiking on remote trails in our own country. 

FYI my position has always been that Donald Trump didn't "get it right". Shinzo Abe got it right. Trump just did better than Trudeau, and our media wasn't only wrong about that, they vilified Trump for doing the right thing. They even vilified him for blocking funding to the WHO, pending an investigation. The WHO had one job - to give the world the right advice during a pandemic. The WHO got outsmarted by Donald Trump. You of all people should think that's reason for an investigation, based on your opinion of Trump.

Trump has not done better than Trudeau, just because he stopped flights from China a few days earlier.

Japan closed its borders on March 15 to Chinese passport holders. They added most other countries on April 1st.

United States issued its travel ban to China, Iran and some European countries on March 11th.

Canada issued its travel ban on March 18th.

Not much difference between the 3 countries. So you're holding on a view/opinion that lacks proper facts.

---

One thing that seems to be lost on Dr. Tam’s harshest critics is the fact that this is a novel virus. We have literally never encountered this virus before. That means that public health officials are responding to new information in real time and making policy decisions dependent on the data that is in front of them.

When I asked Isaac Bogoch, an infectious diseases specialist at the University of Toronto and Toronto General Hospital, about some of the reaction to Dr. Tam’s policy, he told me: “Nobody should be free from scrutiny, and we should always hold our politicians and other officials to account, but we’ve had reasonable policy throughout this. The federal policy evolved with the evolving epidemic.”

Link

 

 

[Army Guy]

On 6/4/2020 at 12:09 PM, Boges said:

It's not about calling all White People Racist. 

It's about recognizing that being white has some serious built-in benefits from years of systemic racism and discrimination. 

Denying that White privilege exists is being wilfully ignorant. 

I wonder how many living in a New Brunswick trailer park would consider themselves Privileged, for being white, you make it sound like they have an advantage over the same black people living in the same trailer park, all living off the same government check...

Or I wonder how much white privilege one would have living in the South Africa when they seized their farms without compensation...being white does have it's benefits when your in a mostly white nation....as being black in a mostly black country would have it's benefits...

My point is not every one has access to white privilege.. Atleast not in NB anyway with the lack of big cities, with separated neighborhoods... with exception of the reserves...

[Army Guy]

Even Maclean's magazine gives trump some credit, all while dumping on Canada's response to the covid 19....there is lots of evidence out there to back up any statement that Justin blew it,

But hey I get it Justin has his own group of groupies where shit don't stick to anything..

.https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/how-canada-has-bungled-the-covid-19-endgame/ar-BB14QLjz?ocid=spartanntp

[WestCanMan]

16 minutes ago, marcus said:

Trump has not done better than Trudeau, just because he stopped flights from China a few days earlier.

Japan closed its borders on March 15 to Chinese passport holders. They added most other countries on April 1st.

United States issued its travel ban to China, Iran and some European countries on March 11th.

Canada issued its travel ban on March 18th.

Not much difference between the 3 countries. So you're holding on a view/opinion that lacks proper facts.

---

Trump banned travellers from entering the US who had been to China within 14 days on Jan 31. 42 days later, on March 13th, Trudeau re-stated his criticism of Trump's travel ban. 3 days later, on March 16th, Trudeau did an about-face and announced his travel ban. 

Japan banned travellers from China's Hubeii province earlier than March 15th: https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2020/01/15025cbcccfc-breaking-news-new-coronavirus-carriers-to-be-barred-entry-to-japan-abe.html Jan 31 they announced it. 

Why was banning travel from Hubeii good enough for Japan? Because the Chinese gov't had a ban on travel within the country for people from Hubeii. Canada didn't though. Neither the Chinese gov't nor the Cdn gov't stopped flights from Hubeii province (where Wuhan is) from coming to Canada. That's not cool. 

The Japanese gov't also handed out masks to their citizens. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/28/national/science-health/masks-helped-fight-coronavirus/#.XtwTzy8ZNQI

My opinion doesn't lack facts, at all. 

Quote

One thing that seems to be lost on Dr. Tam’s harshest critics is the fact that this is a novel virus. We have literally never encountered this virus before. That means that public health officials are responding to new information in real time and making policy decisions dependent on the data that is in front of them.

When I asked Isaac Bogoch, an infectious diseases specialist at the University of Toronto and Toronto General Hospital, about some of the reaction to Dr. Tam’s policy, he told me: “Nobody should be free from scrutiny, and we should always hold our politicians and other officials to account, but we’ve had reasonable policy throughout this. The federal policy evolved with the evolving epidemic.”

Link

Stopping pandemics at the source isn't a novel idea, and masks work for reasons which aren't specific to the DNA strands of novel viruses. 

[dialamah]

54 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Stopping pandemics at the source

In British Columbia, most of the viruses sequenced back to Eastern Canada, Europe and the States.  

The virus that hit New York originated in Europe.  

Closing borders might help, but you have to close borders to all visitors not just one region. People travelling from China to Europe brought the virus with them, and then Europeans brought it to the States and Canada.  

Edited June 6, 2020 by dialamah

[dialamah]

Also interesting: in January, a strain of the virus arrived in Washington State, from Wuhan, and within weeks travelled to several other States, Canada, Australia, Iceland, the UK, Mexico, Uraguay and the Grand Princess cruiseship.  According to scientists, that strain accounts for 25% of cases in the US.  

[WestCanMan]

28 minutes ago, dialamah said:

In British Columbia, most of the viruses sequenced back to Eastern Canada, Europe and the States.  

The virus that hit New York originated in Europe.  

Closing borders might help, but you have to close borders to all visitors not just one region. People travelling from China to Europe and then to the States and Canada brought the virus with them.

Talk about conspiracy theories and utter bullshit.

You think I'm going to take your word that people really know what countries the virus came from, or that they'd be honest about it if they did? Do you remember how many lies came out about HCQ, from major sources that we honestly should be able to rely on, within two days of Trump first mentioning it? It was absurd how desperate they were to discredit an off-patent drug. 

And if what you're saying is true, then Trump's travel ban actually worked because it forced the virus to take a circuitous route to enter the US. IE, it didn't come from people who were in China, but from people who were in contact with people who were in China that then went to the US. That is almost a 14-day grace period. Thanks Trump.

 

I forgot to mention, in Japan their travel ban was even more specific than the US ban. They just banned people from Hubeii province. Japan kicked covid's ass. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by WestCanMan

[Argus]

"In area after area, what were religious positions have been translated into political positions. One of the reasons why twitter is so horrible is that woke culture has now become a new orthodoxy. And the twitterati enforce it as though they were Dominican inquisitors. And if you actually look at twitter basting, if those people could burn you, in real life, they would. Far from a liberalization of culture, we're enforcing a new orthodoxy. These are new articles of faith."

"I think one of the reasons why we don't find much wokery in France, or Italy is because all of this liberalism we're talking about latches onto the back of English puritanism and non-conformity, that immense self-righteousness, that belief you are the elect, that belief that most of the rest of human beings are deplorable people. You know, it's the Salem witch trials. They've got to be whipped into line because they're fundamentally wicked. The Left believes people with beliefs like mine are not simply wrong but are fundamentally wicked." -- David Starkey

Edited June 7, 2020 by Argus

[dialamah]

23 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

You think I'm going to take your word

Talk about conspiracy theories and utter bullshit.

You think I'm going to take your word that people really know what countries the virus came from

My word?  Did you not read the articles about scientists tracking various covid strains?  Or are you just the usual extremist right-wing, anti-science type?

[Argus]

Do we have to have this endless argument about Trump and his shutdowns and the virus across every damned topic?

Edited June 7, 2020 by Argus

[Argus]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

Talk about conspiracy theories and utter bullshit.

You think I'm going to take your word that people really know what countries the virus came from, or that they'd be honest about it if they did? D

WRONG TOPIC

[WestCanMan]

16 hours ago, dialamah said:

My word?  Did you not read the articles about scientists tracking various covid strains?  Or are you just the usual extremist right-wing, anti-science type?

Riiiight. “Scientists”.

It’s funny how scientists are instantly discredited by everyone on the left when they say some thing that leftists don’t like, but as soon as one scientist says something that leftists like it’s carved in stone.

That crap was posted here over a month ago. Theoretically, within a couple weeks of Covid being in America, “scientists” were really able to see exactly where every human in NYC got the virus from, and what race of people had it before them.

Maybe the strain that infected Europeans also infected Americans at the same time. Two airplanes with infected people could’ve left Wuhan on the same day with 50 infected people on each one of them. No one knows that that’s not the case. It’s not impossible that it was people from New York that infected Europeans. The truth is that no one knows. It’s impossible to know. Anyone who pretends to know for certain just has an agenda that they’re trying to push.

Why were CNN’s vaunted “scientists” so wrong about HCQ’s side-effects? It’s not like they had to research them themselves and they just made a few mistakes or anything, they could’ve just googled it. They could’ve looked at the 50-year-old studies, or all the side effects that happened when it was given to literally millions of patients over the past 40 years.

Unfortunately, in the age of misinformation, the last thing that we can really do is rely on the what “scientists” tell us. Even the world health organization gets things 100% wrong and they only have to give really simple advice, that has been known for centuries.

And like I said, even if somehow we stumbled onto some honest scientists and they got it right, that means that the virus got to the US from Europe, which means that Trump’s China travel ban pushed covid’s entry into the US back by about 14 days.

[WestCanMan]

15 hours ago, Argus said:

WRONG TOPIC

Not really, I got onto the topic of Global News vilifying conservative MPs for questioning Dr. Tam’s seemingly sinister advice. 
 

That’s totally on the topic of people being censured for questioning leftist dogma. In fact, it couldn’t be any more on topic.

[WestCanMan]

15 hours ago, Argus said:

Do we have to have this endless argument about Trump and his shutdowns and the virus across every damned topic?

MAGA

[Independent1986]

52 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

MAGA

Canada First ! Patriotism should be to your home country

Edited June 7, 2020 by Independent1986