Canada is faced with deciding if it's time to end relations with evil China/BRICs?

[Rue]

12 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada's relations were far worse because of Trudeau.   Don't even ask about the negative impact of oil prices and who you sell "your oil" to.

Get back to me when you figure out airborne is not an American war movie starring Ronnie Reagan and the Rock...no not Dwayne.. Mr. Hudson. 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Rue

[Queenmandy85]

14 hours ago, Right To Left said:

I find it peculiar you don't seem to be aware of publicly available data  that the BRICs nations have much lower numbers of Covid infections and fewer deaths than the US and Europe.

Are you saying that a virus somehow chooses who to infect? Does a virus have economic or political aims?

A virus has only one agenda...to replicate. It choses the course of opportunity and least resistance. 

[Rue]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The result of Canada and / or the US failing to honour their obligations regarding debt repayment would bring about a total collapse of the economy. We are already getting into perilous territory with the current need to support our economies during the Covid-19 crisis. China has helped a lot of countries that we have distanced ourselves from because we didn't like them. China basically owns them and we depend on the resourses they produce. 

China is a leader in the developement of LIFTR reactors. We should be working with them. 

Xi is ruthless indeed but while you judge him, remember Mao and Stalin. What was Xi's experience in the cultural revolution?

President Bolsonaro of Brazil poses a great threat to us, over the long term. He is just as ruthless as Xi. Then there are people like Kim and Duterte. You must never chose your allies because they are nice people. Allies are nations who will give you leverage and an edge. In 1941 - 1945, one of our closest allies was Stalin's USSR. 

In previous posts, there has been discussion of military confrontation. China is a major nuclear power. We cannot have a confrontation between nuclear armed nations.

China is rotting  from within.. It created a pyramid predator economic system totally dependent on controlling its currency on world markets to create trade deficits and debts in its favour againstvghd West by price dumping and selling shit to us because of our own short sighted Greece. In so doing it has  exposed the myth that trade can be free.

The economic shut down in the West will now  mean much of the debt China creates  in others in favour of itself will now never be collected and so its economy will not be able continue to grow like  it has which in turn will trigger unemployment and a  revolution from within.. Hong Hong  and this virus are early warning signs of its impending turmoil even though it's people return to work in the same infected markets continuing to spit, piss and shit on anything they eat or sell

It's own wet markets infected the very blood it needs to suck and live off of .

China and its puppet oil slave Russia may feel any economic competitor other than one owned by China or the Russian mob is the enemy but they are their own worst enemies and they fear their own people and  revolutions from within far  more than we neurotic Westerners fear viruses and think totalitarian regimes will save us from the zombie appocolypse.

The insatiable appetite of China to sell so it can  consume at all costs had triggered a Tsunami gaining momentum and circling its way back to swamp them.

Trump is a flatulent Ferrengi, Putin a joke of a Klingon leader, the Chinese just  Borg with a major malfunction and Trudeau is Jar Jar Binks. 

That of corse makes you Lt. O'hoora.

Regards, WC Fields

Edited April 9, 2020 by Rue

[eyeball]

8 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The world has been floating on a sea of debt for generations....even more so now post pandemic.

Floating like a leaky old prune barge far from shore with failing pumps and no lifeboats.

Quote

Well, debt and trade are two very different things, loosely related to currency valuations and foreign debt held.   In general, you don't want debtor nations to fail and default on their debt.   Wishing Canada would fail just to punish China is not a good strategy.

No one is wishing to fail but we can only punish ourselves by remaining tied to a dictatorship for so long.

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It's more complicated than that.  China promised access to the largest potential market in the world in exchange for playing ball.

China is no longer just a pool of cheap labour, and is hell bent on moving to the top of the food chain.

China didn't promise us anything, our leaders sold us on the promise that China's society would become more like ours instead of our governments becoming more like theirs - ruthless calculating bastards.

Well, I was raised on Star Trek and part of that story included humanity hitting rock bottom before finally deciding to be civilized. I always got that and I'd much prefer that direction than one that's predicated on China's dictatorship being too big too fail.

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So far, they are on plan.

You really admire that too don't you?

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No one is wishing to fail but we can only punish ourselves by remaining tied to a dictatorship for so long.

 

Canada was proudly tied to the largest imperialist power in recorded history...by choice.   Still has the monarch as head of state.

Has China done that yet ?

 

Quote

China didn't promise us anything, our leaders sold us on the promise that China's society would become more like ours instead of our governments becoming more like theirs - ruthless calculating bastards.

 

I don't know what they promised Canada (which was already on a downturn from NAFTA), but they did provide access to U.S. corporations in exchange for technical transfer of IP, as promised.    GM now sells more autos in China than in North America.

 

Quote

Well, I was raised on Star Trek and part of that story included humanity hitting rock bottom before finally deciding to be civilized. I always got that and I'd much prefer that direction than one that's predicated on China's dictatorship being too big too fail.

 

Star Trek is scientific fantasy.    China is economic and political reality.    Learn the difference.

 

Quote

You really admire that too don't you?

 

I admire reality....not fantasy.    China's culture is over 5,000 years old, with many ups and downs.   

Remember, British Columbia is the favourite for money laundering.

[eyeball]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

...post pandemic.

That didn't take long, they're probably dusting off the Mission Accomplished banner as we speak.

39 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

China's culture is over 5,000 years old, with many ups and downs.

That's a pretty stupid reason for following them - didn't your mom tell you anything about jumping off bridges with your buddies? 

[bush_cheney2004]

12 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That didn't take long, they're probably dusting off the Mission Accomplished banner as we speak.

 

If economies do not collapse and nations do not fail, then it is "Mission Accomplished".

 

Quote

That's a pretty stupid reason for following them - didn't your mom tell you anything about jumping off bridges with your buddies? 

 

The U.S. is putting up more of a fight than your weak-ass nation.    Hell, the U.S. went to war with your imperialist empire as well....and won.

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Queenmandy85]

53 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Hell, the U.S. went to war with your imperialist empire as well....and won.

Not the second time. (1812)

[Army Guy]

14 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I think trade with China does provide incentive for China and the West to not fight each other.  At the same time it's making China much more powerful and more able to fight us militarily. 

Trump is doing a lot of tree shaking in regards to the economy, because they want a better deal. And now other nations are also doing the same thing, Australia is having fits with China ownership of most of their resources and industry plus they to want to now limit the amount of business they do with china, on top of many other nations not to haapy that the wet markets have been reasonable for 3 virus pandemics so far, and they want change on that front........And on the military front US/ UK naval fleets continue to respond to China aggression in the pacific...IE building of military bases on  islands and claiming a 12 km limit, in strategic water ways...this is on top of Japanese and South Korean fleets having their own issues with China in which the US fleet is helping out with... For nations that their economies are intertwined they sure don't play nice. 

When ever we climb out of this virus shit hole, things may look a little different..., a lot of countries have been talking about nationalizing some of its manufacture items such as med supplies, med equipment, medicines multi bil dollar industries ,just to start, perhaps this list will grow in size.. all being manufacture in their own country's .  

[Queenmandy85]

When it comes down to it, there is only one country capable of invading Canada successfully. That is the USA. That makes us pretty damn safe, right Bush-Cheney?  

[Tdot]

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Trump is doing a lot of tree shaking in regards to the economy, because they want a better deal. And now other nations are also doing the same thing, Australia is having fits with China ownership of most of their resources and industry plus they to want to now limit the amount of business they do with china, on top of many other nations not to haapy that the wet markets have been reasonable for 3 virus pandemics so far, and they want change on that front........And on the military front US/ UK naval fleets continue to respond to China aggression in the pacific...IE building of military bases on  islands and claiming a 12 km limit, in strategic water ways...this is on top of Japanese and South Korean fleets having their own issues with China in which the US fleet is helping out with... For nations that their economies are intertwined they sure don't play nice. 

When ever we climb out of this virus shit hole, things may look a little different..., a lot of countries have been talking about nationalizing some of its manufacture items such as med supplies, med equipment, medicines multi bil dollar industries ,just to start, perhaps this list will grow in size.. all being manufacture in their own country's .  

This, is beautiful.

[Army Guy]

Other news coming out of Japan , also concerned with the global supply chain , and how it was disrupted without of any thought to the rest of the world. Japan in it's new economic package is setting aside 2.2 bil us dollars to have Japanese parent companies move back to japan, they are also putting aside millions to have any company move any where else in the world.

Since trump has been shaken the trees more than 50 companies have moved back to the US, with added pressure from trump many more are considering moving...things are starting to move from one global supplier to perhaps many. 

 

[Army Guy]

23 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

When it comes down to it, there is only one country capable of invading Canada successfully. That is the USA. That makes us pretty damn safe, right Bush-Cheney?  

Thats one of the largest myths told in this nation, There is a large number of nations that could launch an invasion of Canada, and be successful, because of the state of our military and the age of the equipment....The only reason Canada as a nation is protected is Uncle Sam, not because they like us , but rather they don't want it to spill into the US. After all what would they do with all those screaming liberal Canadians fleeing into the US thats what the US is afraid of, Canada's left.   

Before you relax in that armchair, we have signed multi defense agreements with the US and UK, not only NATO, NORAD, ABCANZ, and others, we would be obliged to come to the aid if a conflict would to break out, to what extent I don't know,  but we are going to be involved....

 

[Queenmandy85]

The logistics of moving an invasion force with equipment across the Pacific, Atlantic or the arctic would be horrendous. The English Channel was hard enough. OTOH, I defer to your expertise. Thanks.

[Right To Left]

On 4/8/2020 at 8:22 PM, Tdot said:

Exactly!!

Yes you put the cart before the horse and now I get to, Thank you, for solidifying my stance here re China's evil onto non-BRICs humans.

And how does that prove your incendiary theory OR would recent evidence that CSIS and the big eye of the 'five eyes' to our south were studying the Coronovirus outbreak in Wuhan Province as far back in January and November respectively, indicate that our spooks knew far in advance about what was coming our way but did nothing or said nothing about it till late February, could be regarded as criminal negligence at best, or go as far as deliberately assisting a population dieoff of the old, sick and poor?

[Right To Left]

On 4/9/2020 at 3:27 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

When it comes down to it, there is only one country capable of invading Canada successfully. That is the USA. That makes us pretty damn safe, right Bush-Cheney?  

Well, now that news has leaked out about two carriers with Covid outbreaks on board, and suspected outbreaks on some military bases, maybe USA now is going to be too busy trying to figure out what to do with lots of sick soldiers and seamen to be invading anywhere...even their long-hoped for excuse to invade Venezuela now.

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The logistics of moving an invasion force with equipment across the Pacific, Atlantic or the arctic would be horrendous. The English Channel was hard enough. OTOH, I defer to your expertise. Thanks.

Well there has been some assume improvements since 1944, and don't take my word for it, goggle that stuff. besides it would not take mush of a force to defeat Canada's military.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Army Guy

[Right To Left]

On 4/9/2020 at 11:23 AM, Rue said:

China is rotting  from within.. It created a pyramid predator economic system totally dependent on controlling its currency on world markets to create trade deficits and debts in its favour againstvghd West by price dumping and selling shit to us because of our own short sighted Greece. In so doing it has  exposed the myth that trade can be free.

 

This paragraph could describe the US now more than China! They have apparently been successful in dealing with their disease pandemic, over here it's just beginning! 

And, America is steeped in debt.....$23 Trillion without adding up all of the most recent promises to Wall Street and other bailouts of the super-rich! The US economy was already headed for a steep downturn because it has so much debt at all levels of society, and the only ones who will get bailed out......once again, are the ones who caused and profited most from financial recklessness. 

[Right To Left]

On 4/9/2020 at 10:54 AM, Queenmandy85 said:

Are you saying that a virus somehow chooses who to infect? Does a virus have economic or political aims?

A virus has only one agenda...to replicate. It choses the course of opportunity and least resistance. 

The virus is targeting those who are most completely ruled by capitalism and capitalist values! That's why it's hitting the US so hard now....and as little as I care for JT and his cautious fence-sitting ways, at least we don't have that goddammed Harper still running the Country and trying to turn us into an even more America North!

I had an argument 3-4 weeks ago with one of my brothers about postponing a family get-together! I argued that the beginning of March was going to be as good a chance as we would have for at least 6 months/he insisted that it would all blow over in 2 or 3 weeks for some reason.......look where we are now!

[Tdot]

3 hours ago, Right To Left said:

And how does that prove your incendiary theory OR would recent evidence that CSIS and the big eye of the 'five eyes' to our south were studying the Coronovirus outbreak in Wuhan Province as far back in January and November respectively, indicate that our spooks knew far in advance about what was coming our way but did nothing or said nothing about it till late February, could be regarded as criminal negligence at best, or go as far as deliberately assisting a population dieoff of the old, sick and poor?

Okay, I can respect that.  Although USA's failure to know how to respond, is certainly irrelevant to the reality of China's choice China's decision China's evil in sabotaging the humans with this disease. True?

[Right To Left]

5 hours ago, Tdot said:

Okay, I can respect that.  Although USA's failure to know how to respond, is certainly irrelevant to the reality of China's choice China's decision China's evil in sabotaging the humans with this disease. True?

"China's evil in sabotaging the humans with this disease?  WTF!

Didn't this disease ravage China first, before it spread out around the world? 

And where do you get the notion that this disease was created? 

Did the USA 'sabotage' the world in 1918, when they kept a bunch of sick army recruits at Fort Riley, Kansas and then sent them over along with other troops in the final year of WWI, which turned into the Spanish Influenza outbreak that lasted through 1920, and killed 50 to 100 million around the world. 

[Tdot]

1 hour ago, Right To Left said:

"

Didn't this disease ravage China first? ... 

China GOVT does not care if its population loses a few hundred thousand humans ---for obvious reasons.  China GOVT cares about getting back at the USA/President Trump specifically, for embarrassing them with his trade war. 

And no, I never once said China created this disease, did I?

[Right To Left]

13 hours ago, Tdot said:

China GOVT does not care if its population loses a few hundred thousand humans ---for obvious reasons.  China GOVT cares about getting back at the USA/President Trump specifically, for embarrassing them with his trade war. 

And no, I never once said China created this disease, did I?

That could better describe US policy and that of many other western governments....like Sweden, who was celebrated at first by making a test run of the "herd immunity" "let the old bastards die off" strategy. Now that disease rates are climbing faster in Sweden, they're starting to push the panic button and talking about increasing restrictions on 'safety zones' and closing public places.

Trump and a bipartisan pack of American liberals and conservatives are all agreed on using the growing pandemic at home as a launching point for a propaganda war against China that may soon turn into a real war....depending on the support within military leadership, health of sailors and soldiers and ability to pay for a big war...the clock may be ticking on that one, and that's why Trump wants to open everything up in May. He needs money to support his military goals.

[Zeitgeist]

On 4/9/2020 at 1:18 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

If economies do not collapse and nations do not fail, then it is "Mission Accomplished".

 

 

The U.S. is putting up more of a fight than your weak-ass nation.    Hell, the U.S. went to war with your imperialist empire as well....and won.

 

No it was a stalemate   The War of 1812 made no gains for the US.  Eventually the US did overcome Britain in financial and military might. Now, after this disastrous management of C-19, the weakening of the US has been laid bare.  I don’t celebrate that, but there’s only one path I can see that’s left for the Anglo-American alliance and perhaps for liberal-democracy as we know it: Tell China and all similar trade partners in no uncertain terms that the only way to maintain trade without punishing tariffs is to shut down the wet markets and adhere to higher standards on food, labour, greenhouse gas emissions, rule of law, and human rights.  If the US and her allies can’t stand up for the principles that have defined the way these countries operate and require them of her trading partners before free trade can exist, then all is lost.

I understand that the Trump administration thinks the WHO, the WTO, and perhaps the UN itself, are in the hands of China and can no longer be trusted as China uses them to make its global takeover.  Yet, many of the biggest challenges we face are global in scale and require a coordinated international response.  Who is going to lead that response?  How has America First served Americans, really?  How has alienating allies strengthened America against China?  Who today is standing for generosity rather than selfishness?  I want it to be the US, but events of the past few years have made Canadians realize that we need strong institutions that we can trust, because while we also want and need allies that we can trust, we have been given good reason to question how much we can trust our allies.

That’s why rules are important.  Rules around trade, labour, the environment, food safety, health, and more, protect people, not just from despotic foreign governments, but from the possible rise of despotism within one’s own country.  That’s what I support.  Nothing else can be trusted.  I don’t trust Trump or BoJo or Trudeau, but I do trust our people and strong rules-based institutions, national and international, and certainly as a condition of free trade.

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

No it was a stalemate   The War of 1812 made no gains for the US.  Eventually the US did overcome Britain in financial and military might. Now, after this disastrous management of C-19, the weakening of the US has been laid bare. 

 

The Revolutionary War was a violent and successful rejection of the British imperialists.    Even weakened by pandemic, the U.S. remains far more dominant than the UK.    This is why Canada shifted economic dependencies south to the bastard Americans long ago.

 

Quote

 If the US and her allies can’t stand up for the principles that have defined the way these countries operate and require them of her trading partners before free trade can exist, then all is lost.

 

All is not lost....it will just be different.   An over reliance for U.S. leadership (and power) has led to this very circumstance when America pivots in a different direction.   Europe, with 500 million people, can't even adequately defend itself militarily.    Canada is left to scramble for a new champion of rules based order that it cannot enforce.    Begging Trump to do so (a la Chrystia Freeland) is an impotent strategy.

 

Quote

I understand that the Trump administration thinks the WHO, the WTO, and perhaps the UN itself, are in the hands of China and can no longer be trusted as China uses them to make its global takeover.  Yet, many of the biggest challenges we face are global in scale and require a coordinated international response.  Who is going to lead that response?  How has America First served Americans, really?  How has alienating allies strengthened America against China?  Who today is standing for generosity rather than selfishness?  I want it to be the US, ...Canadians realize that we need strong institutions that we can trust, because while we also want and need allies that we can trust, we have been given good reason to question how much we can trust our allies.

 

How can bearing the largest burden in blood and treasure continue to benefit America ?   Why can't America just become a more populated Canada or Germany ?     You want it to be the U.S. because that is the easiest path for you, but Americans will decide what their future will be, not "allies" who worship at the globalist alter.   America has already confronted China on trade....Canada has largely not.

Being an ally of the U.S. does not mean freedom from competition or military impotency to the point of pride.    "Allies" has become an often invoked excuse for Canada and other nations.   China is not an "ally", but it sure as hell knows how to compete.

 

Quote

 

That’s why rules are important.  Rules around trade, labour, the environment, food safety, health, and more, protect people, not just from despotic foreign governments, but from the possible rise of despotism within one’s own country.  That’s what I support.  Nothing else can be trusted.  I don’t trust Trump or BoJo or Trudeau, but I do trust our people and strong rules-based institutions, national and international, and certainly as a condition of free trade.

 

If you trust such order, then pay for it.    Trust starts at home, not in the United States.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by bush_cheney2004