Did Trudeau Fail His Country On Covid-19

[Boges]

8 minutes ago, Argus said:

Public Health Officials: "Masks are useless. Don't even think about wearing them."

Public Health Officials: "We're desperate for more masks for our people! If we don't get them they'll die!!"

 

Yeah because nurses and doctors are getting sneezed on and having to intubate people dying of the virus. 

Are you? 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Boges

[Argus]

10 minutes ago, Boges said:

Yeah because nurses and doctors are getting sneezed on and having to intubate people dying of the virus. 

Are you? 

From what I can see even health care workers sitting at reception desks or pushing carts or cleaning or doing other routine chores are wearing masks. It's not like the only people wearing them are doctors and nurses dealing directly with Covid patients.

Am I at a lower risk than health care workers? Sure. Am I at NO risk? No. More than half the new cases are local transmission where no one can figure out the source. How do you think that's happening? Are you willing to guarantee no one will sneeze or cough when I'm around? That there'll be no droplets in the air as I walk past? No, you're not. So why wouldn't wearing a mask provide at least SOME protection to me? And suppose I have the virus and don't know it? Wouldn't a mask help prevent me from infecting others?

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Argus

[Argus]

There is an unexplained disconnect between what health care authorities say in Asia and what they're saying in the West.

Public-health officials in North America have discouraged healthy people from wearing masks, maintaining there’s no evidence they provide effective protection against the spread of the coronavirus. But in parts of Asia, public authorities have suggested the opposite.

Zhong Nanshan, senior medical adviser to the Chinese government, told the public in late January that it’s important to wear a face mask as a precautionary measure. In places such as Shanghai, Beijing and Hubei province, the original epicentre of the outbreak, wearing a mask in public became mandatory. In South Korea, health authorities advised everyone to use masks, regardless of whether they presented symptoms. Singapore and Japan have distributed masks to residents.

The different messages have left many Asians living in the West, including Mr. Park, confused.

Cultures clash over wearing masks

[Shady]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

This also speaks to the idea that, unless you're being sneezed on by someone in public, you don't really need a mask. 

You're not likely to get COVID-19 if share the breathable air with someone else. 

True.  Even if you're sneezed on, the only real chance of getting the virus is by touching your face.  If you don't touch your face before washing your hands, you're almost guaranteed to not get it.  To get the virus by airborne means you'd have to be in an enclosed area like a car with somebody for an extended period of time.  Doctors are learning more and more about it as things go on.

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, Shady said:

 To get the virus by airborne means you'd have to be in an enclosed area like a car with somebody for an extended period of time. 

This is simply not accurate. We've seen multiple examples of large numbers of people getting this from being at conventions and meetings and religious gatherings.

[Shady]

Just now, Argus said:

This is simply not accurate. We've seen multiple examples of large numbers of people getting this from being at conventions and meetings and religious gatherings.

Yes, primarily from touching their face after being in contact with the virus.  It's not an airborne virus.  

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Shady said:

Yes, primarily from touching their face after being in contact with the virus.  It's not an airborne virus.  

Oh, okay. Then all those doctors and nurses don't need masks either.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

From what I can see even health care workers sitting at reception desks or pushing carts or cleaning or doing other routine chores are wearing masks. It's not like the only people wearing them are doctors and nurses dealing directly with Covid patients.

Am I at a lower risk than health care workers? Sure. Am I at NO risk? No. More than half the new cases are local transmission where no one can figure out the source. How do you think that's happening? Are you willing to guarantee no one will sneeze or cough when I'm around? That there'll be no droplets in the air as I walk past? No, you're not. So why wouldn't wearing a mask provide at least SOME protection to me?

And that's why you should stay the fuck home. 

I'm more afraid of what I'm touching than what I'm breathing EI at the Grocery store. 

If you Social Distance, then it's pretty tough for you to be exposed to water droplets in the air. 

[Shady]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

Oh, okay. Then all those doctors and nurses don't need masks either.

CNN had a physician from Johns Hopkins on, and stated that 99% of cases involved touching their face after being in contact.  As for doctors and nurses, no, they should definitely have masks.  They can be in confined spaces with patients, who both have and don't have the virus.  It's a protection from them getting it, or spreading it.  Obviously if you want to wear a mask, it isn't going to hurt.  But if you're diligent about washing your hands, and not touching your face. you have better odds of winning the lottery.

[Boges]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

This is simply not accurate. We've seen multiple examples of large numbers of people getting this from being at conventions and meetings and religious gatherings.

Have you seen the first 20 minutes of Contagion? It's very easy for everything you touch to become infected. 

[Boges]

It's amusing that member Argus is making the case that he needs N95 masks but doctors and nurses don't. 

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, Boges said:

And that's why you should stay the fuck home. 

I'm more afraid of what I'm touching than what I'm breathing EI at the Grocery store. 

If you Social Distance, then it's pretty tough for you to be exposed to water droplets in the air. 

Ever heard of this thing called an "elevator"? It's new but a lot of people do wind up spending time in them. And I'm also more afraid of what I'm touching at grocery stores. That doesn't mean that a basic, elementary precaution of wearing a mask wouldn't help.

[Argus]

4 minutes ago, Boges said:

It's amusing that member Argus is making the case that he needs N95 masks but doctors and nurses don't. 

It's amusing that member Boges is making the case that doctors and nurses and other health care workers desperately need masks but nobody else can derive the slightest benefit from them. Apparently logic is not a concept with which member Boges has much familiarity.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Argus

[Boges]

Just now, Argus said:

It's amusing that member Boges is making the case that doctors and nurses and other health care workers desperately need masks but nobody else can derive the slightest benefit from the slightest benefit from them. Apparently logic is not a concept with which member Boges has much familiarity.

If you're interacting with patients. Especially ones that may have COVID-19. You not only need one mast but several. You should be changing masks after each interaction. 

How can you contend that the risk is comparable when you go to a grocery store? Which is probably the only thing in public you should be doing other than work that's not in an office environment. 

[Boges]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

Ever heard of this thing called an "elevator"? It's new but a lot of people do wind up spending time in them. And I'm also more afraid of what I'm touching at grocery stores. That doesn't mean that a basic, elementary precaution of wearing a mask wouldn't help.

You know it's funny, I haven't had to use an Elevator since all this happened. 

I probably wouldn't go on an Elevator with someone else on it, in this environment. 

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

If you're interacting with patients. Especially ones that may have COVID-19. You not only need one mast but several. You should be changing masks after each interaction. 

How can you contend that the risk is comparable when you go to a grocery store? Which is probably the only thing in public you should be doing other than work that's not in an office environment. 

I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that member Boges has such poor comprehension skills. I've already stated that my risk of encountering the virus is certainly not up there with that of doctors and nurses. In a post to member Boges, in fact. Perhaps member Boges should go read it again. Or get someone else to read it for him.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

You know it's funny, I haven't had to use an Elevator since all this happened. 

I probably wouldn't go on an Elevator with someone else on it, in this environment. 

Some people have no choice. And the virus can linger in the unmoving air of that elevator long after someone who had it was in there.

[Boges]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

Some people have no choice. And the virus can linger in the unmoving air of that elevator long after someone who had it was in there.

I'm not sure if water droplets spend time in the air. Otherwise the disease would be aerosolized. 

Look, if you want to wear a mask, go nuts. The more prudent measure would be staying 2 meters away anyone. 

[cannuck]

38 minutes ago, Argus said:

1. Sure. But that's like saying "You know, people are too stupid to drive cars. I've seen a million stupid things they do while driving. So nobody but professionals should be allowed to own one.

2. It's an assumption based on observation and judgement. I'm not saying they were responsible, but that they're a part of the set of tools Asian countries used. And Asian countries are the only ones who have managed to keep their infection rate down.

And aren't you making an assumption too, that wearing the masks has had no impact?

Yes, I said that. At the same time given the desperation health professionals show in getting masks it would be idiotic to suggest they're not of any use in protection. Or do you think all the health care professionals who use them are simply confused and mistaken.

 

1.  You are editorializing.  I did not say nor infer that only professionals should do this or do that, but that professionals advise against such things with fatal outcome such as using tobacco, drugs, alcohol to excess and driving while impaired or distracted, yet we do all of those things in HUGE excess.

2.  Once again, you are editorializing what I said.  I clearly stated that there was too much "noise" in the data to be conclusive, not that they did not contribute to outcome.

3.  I think sick care professionals wear masks in the OR or exam rooms to protect the patient, not the practicioner.   I also believe that they are educated in and live in a culture of bio-science, not filtration science and technology.   I can agree that mask are not a bad idea because of lack of data, but I can guarantee you that a non-sealing mask is just that: false hope EXCEPT for largish droplets for the time until the water evaporates.

[cannuck]

38 minutes ago, Argus said:

1. Sure. But that's like saying "You know, people are too stupid to drive cars. I've seen a million stupid things they do while driving. So nobody but professionals should be allowed to own one.

2. It's an assumption based on observation and judgement. I'm not saying they were responsible, but that they're a part of the set of tools Asian countries used. And Asian countries are the only ones who have managed to keep their infection rate down.

And aren't you making an assumption too, that wearing the masks has had no impact?

Yes, I said that. At the same time given the desperation health professionals show in getting masks it would be idiotic to suggest they're not of any use in protection. Or do you think all the health care professionals who use them are simply confused and mistaken.

 

1.  You are editorializing.  I did not say nor infer that only professionals should do this or do that, but that professionals advise against such things with fatal outcome such as using tobacco, drugs, alcohol to excess and driving while impaired or distracted, yet we do all of those things in HUGE excess.

2.  Once again, you are editorializing what I said.  I clearly stated that there was too much "noise" in the data to be conclusive, not that they did not contribute to outcome.

3.  I think sick care professionals wear masks in the OR or exam rooms to protect the patient, not the practicioner.   I also believe that they are educated in and live in a culture of bio-science, not filtration science and technology.   I can agree that mask are not a bad idea because of lack of data, but I can guarantee you that a non-sealing mask is just that: false hope EXCEPT for largish droplets for the time until the water evaporates.

[cannuck]

38 minutes ago, Argus said:

1. Sure. But that's like saying "You know, people are too stupid to drive cars. I've seen a million stupid things they do while driving. So nobody but professionals should be allowed to own one.

2. It's an assumption based on observation and judgement. I'm not saying they were responsible, but that they're a part of the set of tools Asian countries used. And Asian countries are the only ones who have managed to keep their infection rate down.

And aren't you making an assumption too, that wearing the masks has had no impact?

Yes, I said that. At the same time given the desperation health professionals show in getting masks it would be idiotic to suggest they're not of any use in protection. Or do you think all the health care professionals who use them are simply confused and mistaken.

 

1.  You are editorializing.  I did not say nor infer that only professionals should do this or do that, but that professionals advise against such things with fatal outcome such as using tobacco, drugs, alcohol to excess and driving while impaired or distracted, yet we do all of those things in HUGE excess.

2.  Once again, you are editorializing what I said.  I clearly stated that there was too much "noise" in the data to be conclusive, not that they did not contribute to outcome.

3.  I think sick care professionals wear masks in the OR or exam rooms to protect the patient, not the practicioner.   I also believe that they are educated in and live in a culture of bio-science, not filtration science and technology.   I can agree that mask are not a bad idea because of lack of data, but I can guarantee you that a non-sealing mask is just that: false hope EXCEPT for largish droplets for the time until the water evaporates.

[Argus]

Just now, Boges said:

I'm not sure if water droplets spend time in the air. Otherwise the disease would be aerosolized. 

Look, if you want to wear a mask, go nuts. The more prudent measure would be staying 2 meters away anyone. 

I don't want to wear a mask. They're not very comfortable. My position from the get-go has been that we should emulate the Asian countries who have succeeded in gaining control of this virus. And masks are one of the ways they're doing it. They're not perfect, of course. But if I'm wearing one, and the guy a little ways ahead is wearing one, and one of us coughs, it's somewhat less likely we'll infect the other than if neither of us had a mask on. Still possible, of course, but less likely. There are no perfect protections other than a hazmat suit and tanked air. So we do what we can to reduce the odds of catching something. Prudent measures. Yes. Social distancing. Yes. Masks. Sure.

Why do you think we maintain a 2 meter distance, btw if the disease is not aerosolized?

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, cannuck said:

1.  You are editorializing.  I did not say nor infer that only professionals should do this or do that, but that professionals advise against such things with fatal outcome such as using tobacco, drugs, alcohol to excess and driving while impaired or distracted, yet we do all of those things in HUGE excess.

What percentage of us do these things a lot? I don't do any of that stuff. I've never done any of that stuff. Some of us are responsible individuals who know enough to not constantly play with our mask or touch our face.

3 minutes ago, cannuck said:

2.  Once again, you are editorializing what I said.  I clearly stated that there was too much "noise" in the data to be conclusive, not that they did not contribute to outcome.

But that's all I said. That they likely contribute to the outcome.

3 minutes ago, cannuck said:

 I can agree that mask are not a bad idea because of lack of data, but I can guarantee you that a non-sealing mask is just that: false hope EXCEPT for largish droplets for the time until the water evaporates.

Presuming I wear a mask and the other guy wears a mask, if one of us coughs near the other are the chances of contagion likely lessened? I believe it is. Therefore, wearing masks is a reasonable thing to do.

[cannuck]

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

Presuming I wear a mask and the other guy wears a mask, if one of us coughs near the other are the chances of contagion likely lessened? I believe it is. Therefore, wearing masks is a reasonable thing to do.

wearing a SEALED mask might be, wearing one that leaks not as likely.   Paper and cloth masks do not seal.

Edited March 30, 2020 by cannuck

[Argus]

18 minutes ago, cannuck said:

wearing a SEALED mask might be, wearing one that leaks not as likely.   Paper and cloth masks do not seal.

And yet medical people routinely use surgical masks around patients. And they are not sealed. They wear them to prevent their own germs from infecting the patient, yes. But it should work equally well on anyone else. If I am talking to you and I unknowingly have the virus would it not be better for you if I'm wearing such a mask?

Edited March 30, 2020 by Argus