The Coronavirus

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

That is a lot of words to deny what you earlier said and you see no irony in your using avoidance and therefore denial of your own words to attack someone else as a denier.

I'm not sure what this even means. Do you? I didn't deny anything. I merely pointed out the difference between them.

1 hour ago, Rue said:

He disagrees with you define managing the virus or how you describe it, not that it is serious or real.

Yes he does. And his disagreement is not with me but with every medical authority on the planet.

[eyeball]

38 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Not saying there is no problem, I am asking is there a better way to handle the situation, given the facts on the ground now? Because we're shedding like a billion dollars an hour here. Might be worth asking these questions, if thagt's alright. Unless I get vilified by the frightened masses, as I dare to challenge the wisdom of our pooh bahs at the helm?

So what are we to make of the vilification you heap on anyone who doesn't have their discombobulator tuned to the exact same frequency as your's and they challenge the pooh bahs you'd rather have at the helm?

There is a better way to handle the situation and starting from the ground up.  Stop politicizing asshole! And stay the **** at home!

Quote

Ok. Guess I'm Hitler to you people then.

No you just seem really concerned...I can relate to that.

Edited April 11, 2020 by eyeball

[taxme]

5 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

You are absolutely right, there needs to be another way found that allows people to work again. Most people would rather go to work and wear PPE such as gloves, mask and even the goddamn goggles if the COVID Nazis insist (they would), rather than stay home and have their life f*cked anyway. Especially now that our PM is saying this could be a year.

Can you imagine having a leader like this village idiot saying something like that? Another year? This guy has to be absolutely nuts in the head. There can be no way any of those trained Canadian seals out there will be able to stay home for a whole year let alone another month of this bull shit. I cannot see that happening. It must end now and let's all get back to work. Those laid off people needs their jobs back so they can get themselves back to normal. It's not so much being all about those front line workers that we should be praising. We should be also praising those people who are out of work and see no future for themselves right now. 

But anyway, those trained seals are already starting to get restless. In my walks with my wife I am starting to notice more people outside these days and starting to enjoy the sun and warmer temperatures. After all, it is a well known fact that viruses cannot stand the sun. The sun burns those nasty little bastards all up. It's better and safer to be outside rather then being locked up inside and starting to go mad because that will happen, especially if parents have to stay at home for a year with their kids. Yikes. Lol.  Those fascists politicians are insisting and demanding way too much from we the people for them to be able to go on much longer with this plandemic hoax.  

Question more as old Larry King always use to say at the end of his show. Canadians need to start doing the bloody dam same thing and start asking questions.

Works well for me. 

 

[OftenWrong]

23 minutes ago, eyeball said:

So what are we to make of the vilification you heap on anyone who doesn't have their discombobulator tuned to the exact same frequency as your's and they challenge the pooh bahs you'd rather have at the helm?

Calling you people a buncha frightened rabbits is not the same as calling someone a nazi sympathizer. That would be rude. Think of it more as a term of endearment, like "Poor little, frightened rabbits".

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There is a better way to handle the situation and starting from the ground up.  Stop politicizing asshole! And stay the **** at home!

Sorry, I cannot. I am among those who must work to sustain the remnants of society, while you and others sit comfortably at home ordering direct-to-door mimosas. I'll refrain at this point from the rabbit analogy, but if you can see where you have one man driving to work in the morning and the sun's out, spring is sprung but everyone is inside and the road is empty, exactly why he might feel like rolling down the window and shouting "Frightened rabbits! Come outside!" Then I continue on my way.

So for me there is no virus, do you freaking get that? You people are just a crazy annoyance. Nothing has really changed either.

So excuse me if I'm a political asshole after a long day

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Calling you people a buncha frightened rabbits is not the same as calling someone a nazi sympathizer. That would be rude. Think of it more as a term of endearment, like "Poor little, frightened rabbits".

Awww.  Get in line okay. I've been associated with Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, Bin Laden, Mohammad, Hannibal, did I mention Hilter and who can forget scum?  But I definitely draw the line at Trudeau.

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Sorry, I cannot. I am among those who must work to sustain the remnants of society, while you and others sit comfortably at home ordering direct-to-door mimosas. I'll refrain at this point from the rabbit analogy, but if you can see where you have one man driving to work in the morning and the sun's out, spring is sprung but everyone is inside and the road is empty, exactly why he might feel like rolling down the window and shouting "Frightened rabbits! Come outside!" Then I continue on my way.

Yeah well you know something I'd be making 5 times as more at work right than I am stuck at home. Do you really think I prefer to be here bellyaching over things with you?   Maybe instead of acting like some petulant jealous prole who can't get over making .25 an hour less than some dude down the line you might think a little more about things like the guy looking down on us from his office who earned more by noon on Jan 1st than we could ever hope to make by Dec 31st.

I think you guys that are holding it together should be on a tax holiday as well as receiving a bonus and I make no bones about who's account that bonus and tax holiday should be charged to.

Quote

 

So for me there is no virus, do you freaking get that? You people are just a crazy annoyance. Nothing has really changed either.

So excuse me if I'm a political asshole after a long day

 

No. There's no fucking excuse for your shitty attitude or losing your perspective over it. Get a goddamn grip.

Edited April 11, 2020 by eyeball

[Rue]

6 hours ago, bcsapper said:

No, we don't.  But like I said, it's a good way you have of deflecting an argument.  You read exactly what I said, chose to ignore it, then chose to decide on what nonsense interpretation you would actually reply to. 

You do and the fact you can not acknowledge it makes it no different than what you accuse Often Wrong as. You two need to cool off.

Calling people holocaust deniers because they disagree with you is bullshit.

You want to use the death of my relatives  or any dead to vilify anyone you disagree with and make you feel morally superior  of course will call you out on it and say cool off  man tone it down. Both of you know better and if you do not know what front LINE  fatigue is ask him.

He  is as worried  as you are BC only he doesn't get to show it and  its wasted emotion if he did.

Neither of you get to use dead people as props to make you feel morally superior to  him or others.

If you disagree with him  kindly avoid the holocaust reference. Let it go.

Virus my ass. Its death you are talking about man.  Its people. They have names.  They die for may reasons and you see one reason that frightens you

Often Wrong sees many other reasons you do not and is fed up explaining to you somebody  can only wash so many damn floors in a day and not all of them dirty floors is from covid patients.  You think you know better, come wash some floors man.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Rue

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Rue said:

You do and the fact you can not acknowledge it makes it no different than what you accuse Often Wrong as. You two need to cool off. Calling people holocaust deniers because they disagree with you us bullshit. You want to use thecd3athb ou f my relatives to vilify anyone you disagree with  I will call you out on it and be decent enough to tone it down. Both of you know better. 

Nobody called anyone a holocaust denier.  Holocaust deniers are people who find it within themselves to deny truths that hit them in the face like a shovel at full speed.  Same with 9/11 truthers, flat earthers, climate change deniers, and those who think we are going to fix climate change. 

People who think the current situation is comparable to the seasonal flu are just ignoring the shovel. 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by bcsapper

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

...and those who think we are going to fix climate change.  

No, it can't be fixed but we can stop contributing to it and making it worse. Action on climate change is an issue of preparedness or lack thereof, something I would expect to have more impact these days.

What was that about a shovel?

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No, it can't be fixed but we can stop contributing to it and making it worse. Action on climate change is an issue of preparedness or lack thereof, something I would expect to have more impact these days.

What was that about a shovel?

You saw it coming and ducked.  Good job.  As for your assertion that we can stop contributing to it and making it worse, I don't think we will.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say the first full year we are past this Covid thing will see the biggest annual increase in atmospheric CO2 concentrations this century.

You heard it here first, folk.

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

You saw it coming and ducked.  Good job.  As for your assertion that we can stop contributing to it and making it worse, I don't think we will.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say the first full year we are past this Covid thing will see the biggest annual increase in atmospheric CO2 concentrations this century.

You heard it here first, folk.

On the heels of the biggest annual decrease?  Okay, we'll let you that one but then it's right back to destroying the economy again.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

On the heels of the biggest annual decrease?  Okay, we'll let you that one but then it's right back to destroying the economy again.

I meant once things were back to normal, but you make a good point.  Still, do you think letting people see what it actually takes will encourage them to keep it up?

[eyeball]

25 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I meant once things were back to normal, but you make a good point.  Still, do you think letting people see what it actually takes will encourage them to keep it up?

Do you honestly believe this sort of economic upheaval is what serious activists want?  I have no doubt there's deniers who believe climate action would be even worse than COVID-19.

Recall how they said we'd all be back to hunting and gathering and living life spans of 2 or 3 decades again if climate activists had their way. I haven't heard anyone predicting this pandemic will knock us that far back on our asses. Have you?

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by eyeball

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Do you honestly believe this sort of economic upheaval is what serious activists want?  I have no doubt there's deniers who believe climate action would be even worse than COVID-19.

Recall how they said we'd all be back to hunting and gathering and living life spans of 2 or 3 decades again if climate activists had their way. I haven't heard anyone predicting this pandemic will knock us that far back on our asses. Have you?

 

No, that's not what I believe.  I don't think they want that at all.  What I believe is that they are not going to get what they want. 

As to your second question, I don't recall, but I'll take your word that some said that.  Currently we are actively seeking a way to stop it doing just that, and spending trillions of dollars to keep afloat long enough to start it all up again, just so we don't go back to that.

[OftenWrong]

8 hours ago, Argus said:

Yes, in fact, he has. Repeatedly.

 

Looking for a cite now please, and repeatedly.

[OftenWrong]

8 hours ago, Argus said:

nd let's get those restaurants and bars and strip clubs open again already!

 

Please cite where any such thing was said by me. 

[OftenWrong]

Radio this morning: "We're all stuck at home..." No, we're not. Not all of us. I saw a lot of people out there last week. Coming home from work, roads were just as busy as any other time. People out walking their dogs. Almost nobody is wearing PPE.

There is no quarantine, can you people not even see that? Open your eyes. How can there be a quarantine by half measures. People are out working, like the people who must serve french fries. If we can do that, we can also put people back to work under social distancing guidelines.

For example:
- Reduce the number of workers required in the workplace down to the bare minimum. The company needs to decide if and how they are able to meet these guidelines or not. If so, they could at least re-open at a reduced capacity.

- Workers could alternate days and work shifts.

- Volunteers only.

- Night shifts can keep the company running 24/7, but still at reduced staffing levels. This gives up to 3x improvement in work hours per day.

- Workplace to be disinfected between shifts.

- Masks are not needed unless social distancing cannot be maintained. In this point, it's arguable that if we are wearing PPE as the health care workers do, we can also work as the health care workers do. Given we are not openly sick and showing symptoms, unlike the health care workers therefore there is a good margin of safety in doing so.

I'm sure there could be many other useful suggestions to add to this list. It is better than doing completely nothing.

 

[OftenWrong]

I know you Einsteins think I'm a Nazi. Coming soon, the rise of many more Nazis near you. Then you'll be left to reconcile with your own, Neo-Nazi double-think.

This is what I'm talking about:
Texas to Ease CCP Virus Lockdown to Restore Jobs, Governor Says

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott is planning to issue an executive order next week that will include guidance to businesses on how to re-open, a key phase in emerging from the virtual lockdown the state is under.

Like most states in America, recent orders in Texas mandate residents largely stay at home unless they’re taking so-called essential trips, in a bid to slow the spread of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus, commonly known as the novel coronavirus.

The new order will “focus on protecting lives while restoring livelihoods,” Abbott told reporters on Friday.

[OftenWrong]

Further to a point I made earlier, my anecdotal observation that the wards are empty.

I do not recommend this web site, there is something wrong with it. It seems to be hacked.

“That’s a surprise”: Doctors are still waiting for fear of advancing COVID-19 patients in Canadian ICUs
Snipped from article

Quote

By David Keith April 11, 2020

The latest report from Ontario’s critical care system on Friday showed only two additional coronavirus patients were admitted to an ICU anywhere in the province the day before. Despite treating more than 530 confirmed or possibly COVID-19 people, nearly 78 percent of the province’s expanded care capacity has remained free.

Quebec saw an average of eight to 10 COVID-19 ICU admissions in recent days, and none in all from April 7 to April 8, Dr. Frédérick D’aragon of the University of Sherbrooke, spokesman for his province for Critical Canada. Society Care. “In my center, we still have a lot of empty beds in the ICU,” D’Aragon said Thursday.

At Toronto’s Sunnybrook Health Science Center, which treats Canada’s first known COVID-19 patient, no one accepts anything, but the intensive-care unit is certainly not over-run, Dr. Gordon Rubenfeld, Critical Care Critical Care. “Is Sunnybrook stressing over the number of COVID patients now?…” I would say ‘No,’ “he said.” I was cautiously optimistic that we would not see the giant influx and nightmare we saw in Italy and New York. . “

Critical care physicians are quick to add caveats – the worst of which may still come, and even the slow daily accumulation of COVID-19 patients – who often spend weeks on a ventilator – ICUs can gradually fill and weigh the system.

“In one month, we may suffer from the not-so-great surge they see in New York, but it’s usually a very slow filling pool,” Rubenfeld said.

Underlines and bolding are mine, to reinforce some of the points that I raised before. I expect @Argus to write to Dr. Rubenfeld. Let him know how he has educated your views on Nazism, since he repeatedly claims the virus is not so bad.

Edited April 12, 2020 by OftenWrong

[eyeball]

11 hours ago, bcsapper said:

No, that's not what I believe.  I don't think they want that at all.  What I believe is that they are not going to get what they want. 

As to your second question, I don't recall, but I'll take your word that some said that.  Currently we are actively seeking a way to stop it doing just that, and spending trillions of dollars to keep afloat long enough to start it all up again, just so we don't go back to that.

Who says we have to go back to that though? There's no alien invasion fleet in orbit demanding we pay our debt or else.  We'll find a way I mean good grief if there's any one thing we're experts at doing it's kicking our economic cans down the road.  We just have to pull out that old innovative roll-up-your-sleeves can-do attitude we're famous for and figure our way out of it.

As for those who believe we're going back to the Before Times once we get past the Between Times I doubt they're going to get what they want either. I suspect things will be very different in the Changed Times.  The biggest change I see is way more automation and way less human labour.  The biggest challenge will be getting past the moral economic imperative that there be no free stuff.  I suppose there's little reason to believe the robots will enjoy working for nothing for a bunch of scummy slackers anymore than a human does. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Who says we have to go back to that though? There's no alien invasion fleet in orbit demanding we pay our debt or else.  We'll find a way I mean good grief if there's any one thing we're experts at doing it's kicking our economic cans down the road.  We just have to pull out that old innovative roll-up-your-sleeves can-do attitude we're famous for and figure our way out of it.

As for those who believe we're going back to the Before Times once we get past the Between Times I doubt they're going to get what they want either. I suspect things will be very different in the Changed Times.  The biggest change I see is way more automation and way less human labour.  The biggest challenge will be getting past the moral economic imperative that there be no free stuff.  I suppose there's little reason to believe the robots will enjoy working for nothing for a bunch of scummy slackers anymore than a human does. 

Sure, I agree that I have no idea what things are going to be like one year from now, or ten.  It's just a view.  There will be differences, I imagine, but I don't see them being on so large a scale that things will not seem like the CV never happened by the time the Tokyo Olympics actually take place.  On a global scale.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

There is no quarantine, can you people not even see that? Open your eyes. How can there be a quarantine by half measures.

The same way there can be a half measured flight ban, sloppy execution.  American right wingers are the LAST people I'd put in charge of anything to do with it. In any case...

Quote

 

People are out working, like the people who must serve french fries. If we can do that, we can also put people back to work under social distancing guidelines.

For example:
- Reduce the number of workers required in the workplace down to the bare minimum. The company needs to decide if and how they are able to meet these guidelines or not. If so, they could at least re-open at a reduced capacity.

- Workers could alternate days and work shifts.

- Volunteers only.

- Night shifts can keep the company running 24/7, but still at reduced staffing levels. This gives up to 3x improvement in work hours per day.

- Workplace to be disinfected between shifts.

- Masks are not needed unless social distancing cannot be maintained. In this point, it's arguable that if we are wearing PPE as the health care workers do, we can also work as the health care workers do. Given we are not openly sick and showing symptoms, unlike the health care workers therefore there is a good margin of safety in doing so.

I'm sure there could be many other useful suggestions to add to this list. It is better than doing completely nothing.

 

 Now you're starting to think a little more rationally but I do have one question. How do you plan to quarantine this sort of thing?

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by eyeball

[Guest]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I know you Einsteins think I'm a Nazi. Coming soon, the rise of many more Nazis near you. Then you'll be left to reconcile with your own, Neo-Nazi double-think.

This is what I'm talking about:
Texas to Ease CCP Virus Lockdown to Restore Jobs, Governor Says

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott is planning to issue an executive order next week that will include guidance to businesses on how to re-open, a key phase in emerging from the virtual lockdown the state is under.

Like most states in America, recent orders in Texas mandate residents largely stay at home unless they’re taking so-called essential trips, in a bid to slow the spread of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus, commonly known as the novel coronavirus.

The new order will “focus on protecting lives while restoring livelihoods,” Abbott told reporters on Friday.

I don't think you're a Nazi, any more than I think those who prefer Lennon over McCartney are Nazis. 

You're just all wrong.

As for Governor Abbot, we'll have to see.

[Zeitgeist]

43 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Who says we have to go back to that though? There's no alien invasion fleet in orbit demanding we pay our debt or else.  We'll find a way I mean good grief if there's any one thing we're experts at doing it's kicking our economic cans down the road.  We just have to pull out that old innovative roll-up-your-sleeves can-do attitude we're famous for and figure our way out of it.

As for those who believe we're going back to the Before Times once we get past the Between Times I doubt they're going to get what they want either. I suspect things will be very different in the Changed Times.  The biggest change I see is way more automation and way less human labour.  The biggest challenge will be getting past the moral economic imperative that there be no free stuff.  I suppose there's little reason to believe the robots will enjoy working for nothing for a bunch of scummy slackers anymore than a human does. 

It’s not that simple.  The essential workers will eventually resent shouldering the burden of providing the food and services.  Automation still represents just parts of production and distribution.  Universal Basic Income may stick in some form, but it will be costly.  Ultimately it is unhealthy and economically disastrous to keep the majority of people under indefinite self-isolation.  We’re also kidding ourselves if we think we can eradicate the virus using these methods prior to finding a vaccine.  China has proven this after using much more severe quarantine measures than we have.

The only sensible management of C-19 is a careful monitoring and controlled spread. Start with a workforce of confirmed negatives who must adhere to more careful health hygiene in the workplace.  When the majority of the workforce have the green light to work, have alternating days at the office in half-sized groups.  I bet that could start in several weeks.  As long as the new cases remain reasonably low, we eventually open bars, restaurants, theatres, and tourist destinations at half capacity.  When symptoms appear, the 14-day self-isolation, reporting to health authorities, and contact tracing starts.  We may have to make using one of the newly developed cell phone apps for location contact tracing part of the deal of participation in certain activities, but I don’t think it’s essential.  There’s also temperature check devices people can wear.  Not essential, but some companies/organizations may require their use in order for workers to return to the workplace.

Once we get down the other side of the peak, there’s a lot we can do to get workers back to the workplace at least half-time pretty quickly without overwhelming the health care system. Vulnerable people will have to remain more careful until the big waves have passed.  Even if and when most of the workforce eventually returns to the workplace full-time, public hygiene will be forever changed and the vulnerable will remain more careful.  

Edited April 12, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[OftenWrong]

8 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I don't think you're a Nazi, any more than I think those who prefer Lennon over McCartney are Nazis. 

You're just all wrong.

As for Governor Abbot, we'll have to see.

Fair enough. But I won't be all wrong forever. What I'm saying is inevitable. I challenge the totalitarianism arising out of panic, fear and incompetence. That is the way things are now, so don't expect people to agree but soon mine shall be seen as the voice of reason. We must get things up and running again.
Or else, Mine shall be the last voice you will ever hear...

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Fair enough. But I won't be all wrong forever. What I'm saying is inevitable. I challenge the totalitarianism arising out of panic, fear and incompetence. That is the way things are now, so don't expect people to agree but soon mine shall be seen as the voice of reason. We must get things up and running again.
Or else, Mine shall be the last voice you will ever hear...

I suppose we shall get things up and running again, eventually.  What we don't want to do is make things worse by jumping the gun.  In the end that will postpone recovery more than caution now will.

I would imagine there are different levels of "get things up and running again" and "make things worse by jumping the gun", depending on one's outlook.

( I didn't mean you were "all wrong".  I meant you and the Lennon boosters were all "wrong")