The Coronavirus

[Rue]

38 minutes ago, Argus said:

Like the US? The number one cause of death in the US is now the coronavirus.

No it is not.  Good God man slow down and find out why.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Rue

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, Rue said:

No it is not. That is absurd. You think people stopped dying of cancer, heart disease, etc.? God man slow down.

Coronavirus Becomes Number One Cause of Death Per Day in U.S., Surpassing Heart Disease and Cancer

https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-becomes-number-one-cause-death-per-day-us-surpassing-heart-disease-cancer-1495607

 

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Rue said:

He did not say it's no worse than the flu..that is your construct using words such as "worse" or "better"when comparing death rates. In the sense he uses it all viruses are equally as problematic or what you call "worse".

If you're going to play with words, I never said he did.  But he said this:

That’s why the flu kills ten times more than we currently have counted, year after year. It is a bigger deal than this in fact, yet we don’t care.

”We” being ordinary people who don’t work in health care and never hear about these outbreaks. They occur every year on the scale you are seeing now.

So yeah, he did.

The rest of your post is basically more of the same, "we have nothing to fear but fear itself", etc.  Certainly you are in the minority when it comes to that view.

[BubberMiley]

18 minutes ago, taxme said:

 

Yes, but how bad was it before the conservative government took the virus seriously? Just curious. 

Sorry, I consider debating with wild conspiracy theorists to be a waste of time.

[taxme]

32 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Trust me I'm all to well aware of the lack of capacity in our health care system. But what you said is that ”We” being ordinary people who don’t work in health care and never hear about these outbreaks. They occur every year on the scale you are seeing now. I'm guessing you put parentheses around the word We to qualify that you're special to the point that only you can see what everyone else is blissfully unaware of.  You do realize that everyone else can see what you're writing don't you?

I've been around a few hospitals a lot during the last couple of years and I don't recall seeing anything on a scale that involves massive shortages of PPE, swamped emergency wards, refrigerated trucks full of bodies, mass graves or anything whatsoever in the media about it.  I don't recall anything on the scale we're seeing now during my entire life in fact.  And you're saying this happens on this scale every year. 

No.  What's happened is that you force yourself to process everything you view, think and discuss thru your ideological discombobulator resulting in a finished product that is completely retarded.

Name those hospitals that you are seeing all this chaos going on in your neighborhood or wherever? What hospitals are you visiting and seeing refrigerated dead bodies, mass graves, swamped emergency wards in Canada? The only scale that you are seeing is the ones that is always being prepared for you and other virus believers every day on brainwashing TV. Even those so called citizen journalists who go out and check for themselves as to whether there is anything going on regards this virus and they all report back that they see no chaos going on at all in any hospitals they have visited. Hospital halls quiet, no one seen running around and all ambulances staying parked in their stalls. All is quite on the western front. At least 700,000 people world wide die from some seasonal flu virus every year. So, why has everyone all gone bonkers over this one?  This China virus has not come close to that number. 

Anyway, it is starting to appear as though you too are also suffering from CVS(Covid Virus Syndrome). The cure for that is to stop listening to the lying media and your lying politicians. They all appear to enjoy spreading this bull crap and enjoy trying to keep everybody in a state of fear and panic over nothing. Just saying.  

[taxme]

17 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

Sorry, I consider debating with wild conspiracy theorists to be a waste of time.

Such a cop out. Sure, do like everyone else does here and run away when you have been confronted with facts and figures which of course you would prefer to just call conspiracy nonsense. When you can prove to me that you have done your own research on this China virus yourself and prove what you keep hearing from the media is all so true, maybe then I will believe you. So, go out there and go check out some hospitals out there and let me know as to what is going on in some of those hospitals that are supposed to be in chaos over this virus or you stop wasting my time. Conspiracies do exist and they are happening all the time. Hello? 

[taxme]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I don't know where you get that number, but just as examples, the US loses between 12k-61k per year to flu. They've said that without the lockdowns and other extreme measures they've taken they could have lost 2 million to the virus in one year.

Canada usually has about 500-1500 deaths per year from influenza. Without the measures we've taken the predicted death toll for the CV19 was 300,000. Even with them we could see 22,000 deaths.

I'm not a math genius but it seems to me that 300,000 is more than 1500

Sadly, you appear to be no genius at all. Every year statistics show that approx. 700,000 people do die from some seasonal flu bug around the world. This China virus will probably come nowhere close to that 700,000 number. Another one suffering from CVS(Covid Virus Syndrome). That is the real virus that is going on around the world these days. 

[taxme]

59 minutes ago, Argus said:

Coronavirus Becomes Number One Cause of Death Per Day in U.S., Surpassing Heart Disease and Cancer

https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-becomes-number-one-cause-death-per-day-us-surpassing-heart-disease-cancer-1495607

 

Boy, are you ever easy to brainwash. Look up, the sky is starting to fall down! Ha-ha. In the end after all of this bull shit plandemic is over, deaths from cancer and heart disease and many other things will be a lot higher than what they may be showing today. This China virus will probably fall back in third or fourth place or even lower.  Get for real will you. 

[Marocc]

5 minutes ago, taxme said:

Every year statistics show that approx. 700,000 people do die from some seasonal flu bug around the world.

"Seasonal flu kills 291,000 to 646,000 people worldwide each year, according to a new estimate that's higher than the previous one of 250,000 to 500,000 deaths a year." https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=208914

6 minutes ago, taxme said:

virus will probably come nowhere close to that 700,000 number.

Why not? It's already almost 100,000. That times 7 doesn't seem like a feat to the virus in my eyes.

 

[Rue]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

If you're going to play with words, I never said he did.  But he said this:

That’s why the flu kills ten times more than we currently have counted, year after year. It is a bigger deal than this in fact, yet we don’t care.

”We” being ordinary people who don’t work in health care and never hear about these outbreaks. They occur every year on the scale you are seeing now.

So yeah, he did.

The rest of your post is basically more of the same, "we have nothing to fear but fear itself", etc.  Certainly you are in the minority when it comes to that view.

I did not play with any words and you just evidenced what he said and what I defended, so no he didn't. You are the one not he claiming covid is killing more, the rates do not show that at all.

Next, if a majority of people are mistaken it does not make their being mistaken less mistaken, its not necessarily relevant or material to whether something is credible. Most people are ignorant of science and so have many deliberate or unintentional beliefs that may be false. What is your point about majority and minority? What should I sit in the back of the bus now?

 

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

No. That's not it. What needs to happen is we need to have masks for everyone, lots of PPE and ventilators in hospitals, mass testing which produces quick results, and a really good tracing system for those found to be positive, like they have in Asia. We need to be able to know where the person has been for the previous two weeks, and be able to alert other people who have been in those places around those times to get tested. And they need to be able to GET those tests quickly and easily.

Then we can all go back to work.

Or, we can be more selective in who needs to wear the mask to be protected, since we have some decent data that shows who is at high risk and who is not. A smart person should be able to figure out a way to allow the people at risk of respiratory illnesses to be protected the most, and let those who have minimal risk, for whom all these precautions present minimal return, go back to work. That means the age demographic below about 45 - 50 years, which are the parents of families.

Not saying go completely without PPE either, saying the amount of quarantine and isolation is potentially far worse than the risk of this disease.

But I understand the notion, every life must be saved. Even a 90 year old man, despite the fact some of them would say to the devil with this crap, I'll live what little is left of my life a free man. Or, stuck in a small room with no one to talk to. He dies either way, maybe earlier, and very likely lonelier.

But who am I to judge that we stop the whole world on a dime, instant, no plan was prepared, and watch many peoples lives go down the toilet. Shall we tear their lives apart, under the guise that this is good for them? I say it's a judgement call, not absolute. That is why we fight the flu but only to a point, or else the war against the virus also kills.

Looking ahead, as is so desperately needed here, does this mean we must go this route for the already existing viral threats that are present? Or do you think it's fine now after having done all this to continue to accept the 600 - 700 thousand flu deaths reported per year, worldwide, as we have done?

 

[Rue]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

Coronavirus Becomes Number One Cause of Death Per Day in U.S., Surpassing Heart Disease and Cancer

https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-becomes-number-one-cause-death-per-day-us-surpassing-heart-disease-cancer-1495607

 

That article assumes heart disease and cancer deaths are reported the same way covid virus is and the covid virus rate is necessarily the rate it is at the time of the article. Think man why that makes no sense. That  above article is what is called a snapshot conclusion and an excellent example of how the media does not take the time to think about what it writes and reports. Please you need to do better than suspend your critical thinking when reading such info.  You can't compare stats if they are not obtained the same way until you account for the variables that will distort their comparisons and  account for them.

Please go to :https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus.

If you want to take the time to read it, it will explains why what you read is nonsense ..It interestingly states:

"Sometimes journalists talk about the CFR as if it’s a single, steady number, an unchanging fact about the disease. This is a particular bad example from the New York Times in the early days of the COVID-19 outbreak.

But it’s not a biological constant; instead, it reflects the severity of the disease in a particular context, at a particular time, in a particular population. 

The probability that someone dies from a disease doesn’t just depend on the disease itself, but also on the treatment they receive, and on the patient’s own ability to recover from it.

This means that the CFR can decrease or increase over time, as responses change; and that it can vary by location and by the characteristics of the infected population, such as age, or sex. For instance, older populations would expect to see a higher CFR from COVID-19 than younger ones."

 

Here are other  articles you will find more helpful if you must compare covid to cancer and heart disease and discuss death rates. Simply grabbing a negative sound bite in th emedia aint gonna give you a clear picture.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/16/upshot/coronavirus-best-worst-death-toll-scenario.html

https://fullfact.org/online/coronavirus-daily-deaths/

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/04/we-could-be-vastly-overestimating-the-death-rate-for-covid-19-heres-why/

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Rue

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

Like the US? The number one cause of death in the US is now the coronavirus.

Such figures may sound impressive but don't work for me, unless I have a baseline comparator. Without that it means nothing, by itself.

For example, over what period of time? How does this compare to the sudden statistical spike of other disease outbreaks when they occur in a given year, as they blow through old age homes and wipe out the elderly? Respiratory viruses and resulting pneumonia are but one of the big reasons they die. Do other viral outbreaks also become the number one killer for a while? Like a flashy headline, what you wrote has the potential to frighten but not really inform.

Edited April 10, 2020 by OftenWrong

[Rue]

Further to the above if a man tells me his size is bigger than mine...I can only speculate  it aint  the  size that  he has  a problem grasping  but the concept of circumcision.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rue]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Such figures may sound impressive but don't work for me, unless I have a baseline comparator. Without that it means nothing, by itself.

For example, over what period of time? How does this compare to the sudden statistical spike of other disease outbreaks when they occur in a given year, as they blow through old age homes and wipe out the elderly? Respiratory viruses and resulting pneumonia are but one of the big reasons they die. Do other viral outbreaks also become the number one killer for a while? Like a flashy headline, what you wrote has the potential to frighten but not really inform.

It sure as hell don't account for shrinkage from being in cold water.

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

I don't know where you get that number, but just as examples, the US loses between 12k-61k per year to flu.

That is the whole world number issued by CDC for 2017. I read it a while ago.

First of all, the CDC website now shows this disclaimer.

Quote

Note: The COVID-19 pandemic is affecting healthcare seeking behavior. The number of persons and their reasons for seeking care in the outpatient and ED settings is changing. These changes impact data from ILINet in ways that are difficult to differentiate from changes in illness levels, therefore ILINet data should be interpreted with caution.

It says there is doubt now in the numbers being reported, and I've heard this concern expressed elsewhere. Hospitals are not differentiating well between COVID and other respiratory viruses. Some data shows that other respiratory viruses are not being reported corretly at all, they are too low for what's normal this time of year and it's assumed they might be added to COVID.

Here's the 2017 data i mentioned:
Link
According to new estimates published today, between 291,000 and 646,000 people worldwide die from seasonal influenza-related respiratory illnesses each year, higher than a previous estimate of 250,000 to 500,000 and based on a robust, multinational survey.

The new estimate, from a collaborative study by CDC and global health partners, appears today in The Lancet. The estimate excludes deaths during pandemics.

“These findings remind us of the seriousness of flu and that flu prevention should really be a global priority,” says Joe Bresee, M.D., associate director for global health in CDC’s Influenza Division and a study co-author.

What shall we do now, Argus. Shall masks become the norm for everybody in the whole world, young and old? Think of the psychological impact of it over the long term. What we are doing is stupid, illogical, unsustainable. Lets pray it doesn't become the new normal, because the shit is trying to become its own economy.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

I did not play with any words and you just evidenced what he said and what I defended, so no he didn't. You are the one not he claiming covid is killing more, the rates do not show that at all.

Next, if a majority of people are mistaken it does not make their being mistaken less mistaken, its not necessarily relevant or material to whether something is credible. Most people are ignorant of science and so have many deliberate or unintentional beliefs that may be false. What is your point about majority and minority? What should I sit in the back of the bus now?

 

Yes he did.  However, if you wish to maintain that the current virus is no worse than the seasonal flu then fill your boots.  Nothing I can do about that.

[OftenWrong]

US death causes per year, various sources:
600,000 deaths by cancer.
400,000 deaths by smoking related disease
40,000 by second hand smoke
300,000 by obesity
88,000 by alcohol
38,000 by car accidents
840,000 by cardiovascular disease

Just to give a context. Seems doubtful that COVID is greater than these, unless someone really jigs with the numbers.

[Rue]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

Yes he did.  However, if you wish to maintain that the current virus is no worse than the seasonal flu then fill your boots.  Nothing I can do about that.

He is talking rates of death you are making a value as to which rate or number you assign greatest value to. Forget it BC I mean well not to split hairs with you and be an ahole about it..we both agree the virus sucks...just talking......

Edited April 10, 2020 by Rue

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Rue said:

He is talking rates of death you are making a value as to which rate or number you assign greatest value to. Forget it BC I mean well not to split hairs with you and be an ahole about it..we both agree the virus sucks...just talking......

This virus isn't done yet, and we can have no idea of what the numbers would have been should a less restrictive approach had been taken.

My own view is that it would have been much worse.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

US death causes per year, various sources:
600,000 deaths by cancer.
400,000 deaths by smoking related disease
40,000 by second hand smoke
300,000 by obesity
88,000 by alcohol
38,000 by car accidents
840,000 by cardiovascular disease

Just to give a context. Seems doubtful that COVID is greater than these, unless someone really jigs with the numbers.

Excuse me but how many of these all happen at the same time in a manner that they swamp emergency wards, require refrigerated truck for morgues and mass burials at the scale we're seeing now? 

Are you on LSD or something?

[OftenWrong]

14 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Excuse me but how many of these all happen at the same time in a manner that they swamp emergency wards, require refrigerated truck for morgues and mass burials at the scale we're seeing now? 

Are you on LSD or something?

relax little fella. I don't expect you to understand the point, anyway. This is for the big boys now.
BTW how's that thread goin you made, you know the one where you say let's celebrate all the good things about the virus?

[OftenWrong]

ER wards are plugged up alright, because of misguided freaked out dipsticks filling it. Fear and panic. People are being asked not to go to the ER because of the waves of frightened rabbits lining up to get a spot inside.

Most hospitals now asking people not to come there, but to take their online assessment tool.

Here's one for all you miserable leftists in BC. Your government wrote this little gem.

Some highlights:

Quote

Most people do not need to be tested for COVID-19 because it will not change your care.

People who do not need to be tested for COVID-19 include:

• People without symptoms
• People who have mild respiratory symptoms that can be managed at home
• Returning travellers

Who should be tested for COVID-19?

People with respiratory symptoms who may require testing for COVID-19 include people who are:

• Hospitalized, or likely to be hospitalized
• Health Care Workers
• Residents of long-term care facilities
• Part of an investigation of a cluster or outbreak

As a precaution, the Ministry of Health asks that if you have a fever or cough to self-isolate for 10 days AND until your fever is gone AND you are feeling better. If you are having other symptoms such as:

• Muscle aches/fatigue
• Sore Throat
• Headache
• Loss of appetite
• Chills
• Runny nose
• Nausea and vomiting
• Diarrhea
• Loss of sense of smell/taste

Please self-isolate until you are feeling better, unless your symptoms are related to your usual seasonal allergies. Continue to complete this assessment to determine if you may need care.

The bolding is not mine. Note that NOWHERE in this list of symptoms does it even say to go to the hospital. The questionnaire is interesting and I hope it will help to give you a better sense of what this virus is about, what the medical professional think you should do. In a nutshell, don't go to the hospital unless you're really sick. really sick means worse than when you had the influenza real bad and you had the chills and the the shits and puke all at once. You are still supposed to stay home for that, and apparently by this information are not to be tested. Dichotomy or no?

 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

relax little fella. I don't expect you to understand the point, anyway. This is for the big boys now.

Those of you with alzheimers perhaps.

[OftenWrong]

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Those of you with alzheimers perhaps.

Ah ha. So, you answered the questionnaire, and your feet are now touching the ground once again?

Thanks OftenWrong.

No problem there little fella. Now you can sleep well tonight, knowing you and the kids are all going to be safe. And tomorrow, you can go outside