Trump/Hollywood/America vs Putin/Moscow/Russia

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

I know America has soft power, but there was a missed opportunity in the mid-90’s for a better geopolitical alignment, I think.  

 

Then why did you post this ?

Quote

That’s one of the reasons the US has to have such an outsized military.  The soft power isn’t there, so you can only get er done with a big stick. 

 

America already paid the highest price in blood and treasure to bring down the Soviet Union, and now you want to blame America for not transforming Russian politics and society ?    What were other nations doing ?    What was Canada doing ?

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Then why did you post this ?

 

America already paid the highest price in blood and treasure to bring down the Soviet Union, and now you want to blame America for not transforming Russian politics and society ?    What were other nations doing ?    What was Canada doing ?

Canada was doing some similar things.  Hockey actually contributed a lot to engagement.  When I say the soft power wasn’t there, I’m talking about in the political reconstruction period when the Russian Commonwealth was being set up.  That was the time for a bigger plan that included military and economic integration with the west.  It sounds ridiculous now, but it seemed almost probable for a time.  

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada was doing some similar things.  Hockey actually contributed a lot to engagement.  When I say the soft power wasn’t there, I’m talking about in the political reconstruction period when the Russian Commonwealth was being set up.  That was the time for a bigger plan that included military and economic integration with the west.  It sounds ridiculous now, but it seemed almost probable for a time.  

 

Still not correct....as there was plenty of engagement at the time, backed up by American aid.  

Either way, I don't know why you focus on this as an American shortcoming over others, especially Europe which actually borders Russia.

The U.S. is still "integrated" with Russia for space programs, going back to cooperation even during the height of the Cold War (Apollo–Soyuz 1975).

The International Space Station has Russia as a key, contributing partner.

 

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Still not correct....as there was plenty of engagement at the time, backed up by American aid.  

Either way, I don't know why you focus on this as an American shortcoming over others, especially Europe which actually borders Russia.

The U.S. is still "integrated" with Russia for space programs, going back to cooperation even during the height of the Cold War (Apollo–Soyuz 1975).

The International Space Station has Russia as a key, contributing partner.

 

 

 

Yes, so if done so successfully with space, why not elsewhere?

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Yes, so if done so successfully with space, why not elsewhere?

 

It has happened elsewhere, but ultimately it is Russia that will determine the pace and level of engagement.   American business went into Russia during the early 90's for investment opportunity but got burned because Russia did not have strong and reliable trade protocols, domestic law, banking, etc.   The oligarchs ran the show, and still do. Meanwhile, many Russians (and Ukrainians) fled to America/West.   I taught Unix to some of them at a local community college.

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It has happened elsewhere, but ultimately it is Russia that will determine the pace and level of engagement.   American business went into Russia during the early 90's for investment opportunity but got burned because Russia did not have strong and reliable trade protocols, domestic law, banking, etc.   The oligarchs ran the show, and still do. Meanwhile, many Russians (and Ukrainians) fled to America/West.   I taught Unix to some of them at a local community college.

I hear you. They’re all over the GTA.  Lots of Russian Jews in Forest Hill.  Quite hard working.  Good businessmen.  

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I hear you. They’re all over the GTA.  Lots of Russian Jews in Forest Hill.  Quite hard working.  Good businessmen.  

 

The Americans ended up making more money off of Hollywood movies about ruthless Russian gangsters, which reflected the economic reality.

[Zeitgeist]

15 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The Americans ended up making more money off of Hollywood movies about ruthless Russian gangsters, which reflected the economic reality.

Believe me, I experienced it first hand there.  The extortion was real.  Businesses that suddenly went up in flames, literally.  

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Believe me, I experienced it first hand there.  The extortion was real.  Businesses that suddenly went up in flames, literally.  

 

Then we can at least agree that Russian culture is what it is and will develop as its own pace, regardless of what the West may desire.

Voice of America, blue jeans, and Elvis only goes so far....just ask Pussy Riot.

Edited February 15, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

Ha ha, true. 

[DogOnPorch]

Russia still takes its nuclear arsenal very seriously.

It seems to have managed to get the rest of the bugs out of the RSM-56 Bulava, as well...with several confirmed submerged launches as well as an apparent ice pack surface launch.

 

[August1991]

On 2/14/2020 at 6:58 AM, Michael Hardner said:

There are threats other than nuclear threats.  Is North Korea a stable and healthy country because they have missiles ?

Michael,

Deal with these threats. My point is that this is no longer the Cold War. The Soviet Union is no more. 

[August1991]

10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well that was good work.  I also worked for a US NGO in Russia at the time.  It was a time of hope and possibility.  Then the absence of an orderly plan under drunk populist Yeltsin left a power void, which was filled by organized crime and oligarchs....  

What's the line?

You can give someone a fish - or teach the person how to fish.

What no-one says is that it's not easy to teach someone how to fish.

=====

As a foreigner, IME, Russians follow precise rules/believe they're correct and Americans have no concept of another society.

BTW, as a foreigner, I admire people from both countries.

Thank God this Cold War has ended, and the Enlightenment has won.

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by August1991

[Rue]

Putin was cultivated to be the thug for the mob in the Kremlin. He was groomed in St. Pettersburgh and made his way to the top after having a reputation of being a sociopath in the KGB and working with the Stasni in East Germany. He started off as a hit-man for the Stasni on loan from the KGB. He is a classic sociopath. He has zero emotions, is ruthless, has a very high intelligence quotient, can analyze quickly and does not have emotions distorting his decisions. He is ruthless and he runs a bankrupt shell of a government whose every move is controlled by the mob. 

Putin is just a mob flunkie. The only way Putin goes down is if the mob has had enough of him. He's got carte blanche by the mob to do what he wants as long as he protects them. Putin has to constantly kill off his opposition which he has in terms of political opponents but none of the people he has wacked are mob.

Even smart guys who make money for the mob get rubbed out when their egos get too big-ask Benjamin  Seigel. In Putin's case he has done their bidding but there is a fine line with a sociopath's ego and the mob he works with. Invariably one day they will clash and he gets  bullet between the eyes. Its the nature of the business. You need to show  how ruthless your ego is to survive but cultivating it means you constantly have to reinvent it though new displays of power to prove it still exists or people thing you have lost your strength and this invites a challenge... and so inevitably  in one of those reinvention power displays you always go one too far and wack the wrong person and become expendable. Putin reminds me of Jimmy Hoffa only with a lot of head smarts and more control of his temper.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Rue

[Yzermandius19]

16 hours ago, August1991 said:

Michael,

Deal with these threats. My point is that this is no longer the Cold War. The Soviet Union is no more. 

Their nuclear arsenal still exists and threatens America just as the American nuclear arsenal still exists and threatens Russia. The Soviet Union being no more isn't relevant, the source of the friction isn't gone and isn't going away just because the Cold War ended and the Soviet Union is gone.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Yzermandius19