Trump/Hollywood/America vs Putin/Moscow/Russia

[August1991]

Trump is not from Hollywood, he's from New York.

Putin is not from Moscow, he's from St-Petersburg.

And Russia is no longer a competitor to America.

[Yzermandius19]

50 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Russia is no longer a competitor to America.

Their nuclear arsenal says otherwise.

[Marocc]

Didn't someone say that 50 years ago?

[Yzermandius19]

8 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Didn't someone say that 50 years ago?

Anyone who said that 50 years ago was right, and anyone who says that now is right. Having thousands of nukes aimed at America on fifteen minutes launch on warning hair trigger never went away just because the Cold War ended, and America didn't stop aiming thousands of nukes at Russia either.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Anyone who said that 50 years ago was right, and anyone who says that now is right. Having thousands of nukes aimed at America on fifteen minutes launch on warning hair trigger never went away just because the Cold War ended, and America didn't stop aiming thousands of nukes at Russia either.

Think of the money that would have been saved if Russia had been fully brought into the fold when they were most vulnerable by George W.   If Russia had joined NATO then, what a different situation we might have today: Russian soldiers helping provide security, less Russian imperial expansionism, the list goes on.  By keeping Russia out of NATO while also inviting former members of the Warsaw Pact in, Russia got a siege mentality and has been on a mission to regain the territory lost from the Soviet Union.  Would be a good hedge against China as well.  Is it too late?  I think we're stuck with the current situation as long as Putin remains Russian dictator and Russia remains a pseudo democracy.   

[Yzermandius19]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Think of the money that would have been saved if Russia had been fully brought into the fold when they were most vulnerable by George W.   If Russia had joined NATO then, what a different situation we might have today: Russian soldiers helping provide security, less Russian imperial expansionism, the list goes on.  By keeping Russia out of NATO while also inviting former members of the Warsaw Pact in, Russia got a siege mentality and has been on a mission to regain the territory lost from the Soviet Union.  Would be a good hedge against China as well.  Is it too late?  I think we're stuck with the current situation as long as Putin remains Russian dictator and Russia remains a pseudo democracy.   

Russia couldn't have been brought into the fold, then or now.

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Russia couldn't have been brought into the fold, then or now.

I thought Russophobia is one of the arguments Trump supporters use to defend his cozy relationship with Putin?  Which is it?  Is Russia a threat or not?  I think it is now, but it could have taken a different course.  I wonder whether Putin would be what he is today had Russia been handled differently after the collapse of the Soviet Union.  Russia has been an important ally at different times in history. 

[Yzermandius19]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Russia has been an important ally at different times in history. 

That was before the nukes.

[Zeitgeist]

7 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

That was before the nukes.

Well Pakistan has nukes.  I just think things could have been different.  

[August1991]

On 2/12/2020 at 5:20 AM, Yzermandius19 said:

Their nuclear arsenal says otherwise.

Russia? A threat to America? You misunderstand MAD. 

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, August1991 said:

Russia? A threat to America? You misunderstand MAD. 

There are threats other than nuclear threats.  Is North Korea a stable and healthy country because they have missiles ?

[Yzermandius19]

On 2/12/2020 at 2:04 PM, Zeitgeist said:

Well Pakistan has nukes.  I just think things could have been different.  

Pakistan isn't aiming it's nukes at America though, it's aiming them at India. America and Russia being friends would be like if India and Pakistan were friends, things could not have been different, that is wishful thinking. The only reason for either America or Russia to have the nuclear arsenals they have is to attempt to beat the other in a nuclear war, should it come to that, and neither is fooling the other into thinking it's just about other targets.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Pakistan isn't aiming it's nukes at America though, it's aiming them at India. America and Russia being friends would be like if India and Pakistan were friends, things could not have been different, that is wishful thinking. The only reason for either America or Russia to have the nuclear arsenals they have is to attempt to beat the other in a nuclear war, should it come to that, and neither is fooling the other into thinking it's just about other targets.

But what is the point in Russia and America being enemies?  There was an opportunity to change this arrangement with the fall of the Soviet Union, but since we didn’t take the opportunity...Now with Putin playing modern expansionist dictator, we are stuck as enemies. 

[Yzermandius19]

20 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

But what is the point in Russia and America being enemies?  There was an opportunity to change this arrangement with the fall of the Soviet Union, but since we didn’t take the opportunity...Now with Putin playing modern expansionist dictator, we are stuck as enemies. 

The point is that America and Russia do not trust each other, and if they did then the consequences of misplacing that trust prevent it from changing. There was no opportunity to change the arrangement just because the Soviet Union fell, you just wish there was.

[Zeitgeist]

55 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The point is that America and Russia do not trust each other, and if they did then the consequences of misplacing that trust prevent it from changing. There was no opportunity to change the arrangement just because the Soviet Union fell, you just wish there was.

I disagree.  I think it was a misplaced US foreign policy that helped create imperial dictator Putin. 

[Yzermandius19]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I disagree.  I think it was a misplaced US foreign policy that helped create imperial dictator Putin. 

You're wrong. The US could have had the best foreign policy possible, and Putin still would have been a thing. Your theory that everything that goes wrong in the world is somehow America's fault is wishful thinking, Russia isn't only an enemy because of American actions.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

You're wrong. The US could have had the best foreign policy possible, and Putin still would have been a thing.

Not as much of a thing, and perhaps contained within the EU and NATO.  

[Yzermandius19]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not as much of a thing, and perhaps contained within the EU and NATO.  

Why would the Russian's join an organization that was designed to contain them? Makes no sense, you just want them to.

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

Why would the Russian's join an organization that was designed to contain them? Makes no sense, you just want them to.

At the time of collapse anything seemed possible.  There was a lot of comradeship.  Then old fears displaced the goodwill.  It wouldn’t have felt like containment because it would have been a partnership.  Good friends keep each other in line.  

[Yzermandius19]

36 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

At the time of collapse anything seemed possible.  There was a lot of comradeship.  Then old fears displaced the goodwill.  It wouldn’t have felt like containment because it would have been a partnership.  Good friends keep each other in line.  

The goodwill was a mirage, and one world kumbaya was never going to happen, the old fears never went away, and they were never going to even if the US was more friendly. You wanted to believe that anything was possible, but that doesn't mean that was the reality. As long as they both have nukes aimed at each other, on a hair trigger, there will be no friendship, no matter how wishful your thinking is.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

16 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The goodwill was a mirage, and one world kumbaya was never going to happen, the old fears never went away, and they were never going to even if the US was more friendly. You wanted to believe that anything was possible, but that doesn't mean that was the reality. As long as they both have nukes aimed at each other, on a hair trigger, there will be no friendship, no matter how wishful your thinking is.

That’s a pretty dark outlook, but clearly enough of the Republican secretariat had the same cynicism.  That’s one of the reasons the US has to have such an outsized military.  The soft power isn’t there, so you can only get er done with a big stick.  You need both.  If there wasn’t a demarcation between the current NATO countries and the Russian sphere, the Russians might not feel the same need to defend and expand their territory.  Water under the bridge now.  

[bush_cheney2004]

36 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

That’s a pretty dark outlook, but clearly enough of the Republican secretariat had the same cynicism.  That’s one of the reasons the US has to have such an outsized military.  The soft power isn’t there, so you can only get er done with a big stick. 

 

Nope...America had/has plenty of soft power, through foreign economic aid (loans & grants), NGOs, USAID, Department of State, arms control treaties, UN mission, NASA, and other alliances.   

USAID in Russia

After the fall of the Soviet Union, my company at the time helped to demilitarize decaying Russian and former Soviet Bloc munitions, paid for by the American taxpayer.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

38 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nope...America had/has plenty of soft power, through foreign economic aid (loans & grants), NGOs, USAID, Department of State, arms control treaties, UN mission, NASA, and other alliances.   

USAID in Russia

After the fall of the Soviet Union, my company at the time helped to demilitarize decaying Russian and former Soviet Bloc munitions, paid for by the American taxpayer.

 

 

Well that was good work.  I also worked for a US NGO in Russia at the time.  It was a time of hope and possibility.  Then the absence of an orderly plan under drunk populist Yeltsin left a power void, which was filled by organized crime and oligarchs.  The decision to let the Baltic Republics, Poland, and other former Warsaw Pact members into NATO while barring Russia was another kick in the teeth to a country that was once regarded on a somewhat equal power footing with the US.  Putin was the strongman Russia desired to bring order, but he simply realigned the oligarchs, making himself Don Corlione.  Taking the Crimea and occupying Eastern Ukraine is part of his ongoing mission to reestablish Russian control on the Steppes and Central Asia.  That’s what the continued alliance with the Syrian and Iranian dictatorships is all about.  

Edited February 15, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well that was good work.  I also worked for a US NGO in Russia at the time.  It was a time of hope and possibility.  Then the absence of an orderly plan under drunk populist Yeltsin left a power void, which was filled by organized crime and oligarchs.  The decision to let the Baltic Republics, Poland, and other former Warsaw Pact members into NATO while barring Russia was another kick in the teeth to a country that was once regarded on a somewhat equal power footing with the US.  Putin was the strongman Russia desired to bring order, but he simply realigned the oligarchs, making himself Don Corlione. 

 

Russia barred itself, and has a long, bloody history and memory to go with it....much older than NATO.    The Americans could not force Russia to open up to the West any more than other NATO members, including Canada.   Hell, the Canadians were/are still at war with Russia on the ice (hockey).

 

Quote

Taking the Crimea and occupying Eastern Ukraine is part of his ongoing mission to reestablish Russian control on the Steppes and Central Asia.  That’s what the continued alliance with the Syrian and Iranian dictatorships is all about.  

 

Crimea is 90% Russian...voted for Russia.

I just wanted to point out that America has plenty of soft power...then and now....despite your assertions otherwise.

[Zeitgeist]

13 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Russia barred itself, and has a long, bloody history and memory to go with it....much older than NATO.    The Americans could not force Russia to open up to the West any more than other NATO members, including Canada.   Hell, the Canadians were/are still at war with Russia on the ice (hockey).

 

 

Crimea is 90% Russian...voted for Russia.

I just wanted to point out that America has plenty of soft power...then and now....despite your assertions otherwise.

I know America has soft power, but there was a missed opportunity in the mid-90’s for a better geopolitical alignment, I think.  

Edited February 15, 2020 by Zeitgeist