China vs USA: who will reign in the 21st century?

[Dougie93]

8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You want Canada and by extension NATO to become weaker, while China gets stronger.

Canada and NATO are a burden not a boon, America is stronger against China without the free riders like Canada dragging us down.

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Canada and NATO are a burden not a boon, America is stronger against China without the free riders like Canada dragging us down.

Taking on the burden of weak link allies is not a strength, ask the Germans, they know.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

14 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Taking on the burden of weak link allies is not a strength, ask the Germans, they know.

No doubt.   Canada is trying to make itself into a fifth column for China inside Fortress America.

Not only is Canada a drag on US military logistics, it's a rogue state for all intents and purposes.

[QuebecOverCanada]

China is a paper dragon. It's big, impressive, but folding very easily. It's a regional power at best.

It's something that no one talks about, but China has 0 cultural power. For a country of over a billion people, with very big cities, China exports about 0 movies that are widely known in the West every year. China has no singer that is widely known. Confucius is from thousands of years back.

Pick any European country, except let's say Moldova, and everyone of these countries have some sort of cultural power. It's not insignificant. It means creativity is lacking there big time. Compare Chinese cultural exports to Japanese cultural exports, China is 5000 years behind.

China was dominant 5 years ago because it could dump their products and steal our intellectual properties like mad, and had hundreds of millions of almost-slave workers who were very obedient.

Now the game changed a bit, and China doesn't have the lower salaries it had just a few years back. Viet Nam is taking Chinese jobs. Bangladesh is taking Chinese jobs. Even America is taking back their jobs taken by China. China now has the slowest economic growth in over two decades, is quite isolated internationally, and is getting tarriffed by the USA, their biggest trade partner. China is also facing huge problems to contain the Uighurs and Hong Kongers, and now Taiwan tries to get more independence from China.

Edited December 16, 2019 by QuebecOverCanada

[Moonlight Graham]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

So the U.S. as global hegemon is all you have ever known and you want that to continue...got it.

The US as global hegemon is in my interests ((and your interests).  Why the hell would I not want that to continue?  China is pursuing their interests, I'm pursuing mine.

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

China Is Not the Enemy

 

They sure act like it.  Don't be fooled, the Chinese want to steal every penny you and I have if they can get away with it.  They steal our IP and other secrets.  The long con.  Don't be naive.  We need to be careful.  They're our trading partners but not our friends.  China's gov is even less cuddly and friendly than Putin's.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/chinese-researcher-escorted-from-infectious-disease-lab-amid-rcmp-investigation-1.5211567

[Moonlight Graham]

7 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

China and India are not going to take over. Having a higher population is not a guarantee of surpassing America, that's not how it works.

4 x the population plus fast growing economies, hmmm.  Demographics + time.  The math isn't as complex as it seems.

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

7 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Canada and NATO are a burden not a boon, America is stronger against China without the free riders like Canada dragging us down.

Careful what you wish for.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The US as global hegemon is in my interests ((and your interests).  Why the hell would I not want that to continue?  China is pursuing their interests, I'm pursuing mine.

 

Because the U.S. is going broke while you sit in deadbeat Canada hoping that America fights China.

 

Quote

They sure act like it.  Don't be fooled, the Chinese want to steal every penny you and I have if they can get away with it.  They steal our IP and other secrets.  The long con.  Don't be naive.  We need to be careful.  They're our trading partners but not our friends.  China's gov is even less cuddly and friendly than Putin's.

 

"Our" IP....since when is it "our" intellectual property.

I am a nationalist....China and Canada are competitors at several levels.

Nation states have interests...not friends.     Go find another hegemon to hide behind.

[Yzermandius19]

8 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

4 x the population plus fast growing economies, hmmm.  Demographics + time.  The math isn't as complex as it seems.

 

That growth is unsustainable. The math is far more complex than you think it is. Like I say, they did this back in 1980's with Japan and their high growth rates as being about to overtake America, how did that work out for them? Assuming China can maintain high growth rates until the 2050's is asinine, they can't even maintain them right now, that is never going to happen.

Just because America will eventually be surpassed by some power some day does it mean it's right around the corner and it's going to be China. Assuming America is going to fall off any time soon is folly.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Careful what you wish for.

The purpose of NATO was to prevent the Warsaw Pact from reaching the Rhine River by way of the Fulda Gap before American forces could reinforce at Rammstein AFB

NATO is no longer an American strategic imperative, it's more trouble than its worth,  and having no logistics tail of its own : is a burden to US forces not a boon.

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

It's something that no one talks about, but China has 0 cultural power. For a country of over a billion people, with very big cities, China exports about 0 movies that are widely known in the West every year. China has no singer that is widely known. Confucius is from thousands of years back.

Pick any European country, except let's say Moldova, and everyone of these countries have some sort of cultural power. It's not insignificant. It means creativity is lacking there big time. Compare Chinese cultural exports to Japanese cultural exports, China is 5000 years behind.

That's not quite true:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0446059/?ref_=tt_sims_tt

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0385004/?ref_=tt_sims_tt

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190332/

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0299977/?ref_=tt_sims_tt

Japan is a client state of the US.  Hard to compare culturally.  The US literally conquered them and remade them.

Look at Netflix, you'll see Bollywood stuff showing up everywhere.  There's a ton of Chinese in US and Canada, growing everyday, just like India.  The culture will come.  They sell Chinese New Years party favours in Loblaws now.  The fact that you haven't heard of any movies or musicians doesn't mean they don't exist. 1.3 billion people aren't sitting around picking their noses.

[Moonlight Graham]

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Because the U.S. is going broke while you sit in deadbeat Canada hoping that America fights China.

I don't want the US to fight China, I want the West to fight China.  The US is the biggest Western player obviously, whether you admit it or not.

Yes Canada and EU are NATO deadbeats.  We should put in more $$$ ffor our military, i don't dispute that.  They signed an agreement they should stick by it.  USA likes having all the power & control, don't kid yourself.  Nobody is forcing them to spend money on military.

You keep getting your back up and turning this into a US vs Canada thing.  It's not.  Relax. We're on the same side in this dude.  If you think we're not just wait and see.  If you think America can go it alone you're as foolish as Bush and Trump and LBJ.  NATO, League of Nations, UNSC, Axis and Allies...strength in numbers.  China, Russia, Iran, and N.Korea know it.  We have our own interests, and mutual interests.  The China threat is a mutual interest in the grand scheme.

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

"Our" IP....since when is it "our" intellectual property.

Uhh they steal US companies' IP, they steal Canadian companies' IP, they steal everyone's IP.   Have you ever been to a Chinese market?  It's all counterfeit bootleg stuff they sell.  Knockoff Canada Goose jackets too.  This is how they roll.

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

I am a nationalist....China and Canada are competitors at several levels.

Nation states have interests...not friends.     Go find another hegemon to hide behind.

I'm a nationalist too.  I'm not asking for mommy USA to protect poor widdle Canada.  We arrested the Hauwei CEO for you guys and got slapback from China.  You're welcome.  You can get your panties in a knot, it won't matter, the US and Canada know what's going down. This is a totalitarian regime where every Chinese company can potentially be used as an agent of the state to infiltrate Western companies, politics, people, society at large.  Five Eyes bro, not 1 eye x 5 countries & every man for themselves.

[Moonlight Graham]

46 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The purpose of NATO was to prevent the Warsaw Pact from reaching the Rhine River by way of the Fulda Gap before American forces could reinforce at Rammstein AFB

NATO is no longer an American strategic imperative, it's more trouble than its worth,  and having no logistics tail of its own : is a burden to US forces not a boon.

Ok then next time when the US is attacked they can go into Afghanistan or wherever by themselves.  Collective security works.  Ask any International Relations expert.

[Moonlight Graham]

53 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

That growth is unsustainable. The math is far more complex than you think it is. Like I say, they did this back in 1980's with Japan and their high growth rates as being about to overtake America, how did that work out for them? Assuming China can maintain high growth rates until the 2050's is asinine, they can't even maintain them right now, that is never going to happen.

Any time there's hot sustained growth there's eventually a market correction.  China will be no different, no market can keep an uninterrupted hot growth pace.  It happened to the US and everyone else numerous times, including 1929.  But longterm I don't see how China does not fly past the US.  Demographics + time.  Any market correction will just be a temporary setback, just like the USA.

[Dougie93]

8 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Ok then next time when the US is attacked they can go into Afghanistan or wherever by themselves.  Collective security works.  Ask any International Relations expert.

America won't miss the three rifles companies Canada sent to Afghanistan, International Relations experts who don't know that Canada's military contributions are totally insignificant to America ain't the experts they claim to be.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I don't want the US to fight China, I want the West to fight China.  The US is the biggest Western player obviously, whether you admit it or not.

Yes Canada and EU are NATO deadbeats.  We should put in more $$$ ffor our military, i don't dispute that.  They signed an agreement they should stick by it.  USA likes having all the power & control, don't kid yourself.  Nobody is forcing them to spend money on military.

 

Correct..the USA spends that kind of money for U.S. interests...not yours.

The West is not going to "fight China"....the West is investing in China.

 

Quote

You keep getting your back up and turning this into a US vs Canada thing.  It's not.  Relax. We're on the same side in this dude.  If you think we're not just wait and see.  If you think America can go it alone you're as foolish as Bush and Trump and LBJ.  NATO, League of Nations, UNSC, Axis and Allies...strength in numbers.  China, Russia, Iran, and N.Korea know it.  We have our own interests, and mutual interests.  The China threat is a mutual interest in the grand scheme.

 

Strength in numbers means that Canada wants to continue being a deadbeat...no thanks.  

Training police officers and virtue signaling about climate change isn't good enough.

China now provides more UN troops than Canada or the United States.

 

Quote

Uhh they steal US companies' IP, they steal Canadian companies' IP, they steal everyone's IP.   Have you ever been to a Chinese market?  It's all counterfeit bootleg stuff they sell.  Knockoff Canada Goose jackets too.  This is how they roll.

 

Small potatoes...China has stolen IP AND developed more of their own in many science and engineering disciplines.  Your understanding of China is very dated.

Canada has been stealing U.S. digital media for years, without compensation as a Charter Right.

 

Quote

I'm a nationalist too.  I'm not asking for mommy USA to protect poor widdle Canada.  We arrested the Hauwei CEO for you guys and got slapback from China.  You're welcome.  You can get your panties in a knot, it won't matter, the US and Canada know what's going down. This is a totalitarian regime where every Chinese company can potentially be used as an agent of the state to infiltrate Western companies, politics, people, society at large.  Five Eyes bro, not 1 eye x 5 countries & every man for themselves.

 

Guess what ?   The Americans have been doing things that China can only dream of for over 50 years, and that includes spying on Canada.   Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

You may not be asking, but your government sure is and continues to do so.

 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

13 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Ok then next time when the US is attacked they can go into Afghanistan or wherever by themselves.  Collective security works.  Ask any International Relations expert.

 

They did...Canada needed to hitch a ride with the U.S. military.   JTF2 was not properly supported by Ottawa in 2001, and we all know what happened to Canadian Forces after that.   That is not collective security...that is negligence and incompetence by DND.

 

[Cannucklehead]

13 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

They did...Canada needed to hitch a ride with the U.S. military.   JTF2 was not properly supported by Ottawa in 2001, and we all know what happened to Canadian Forces after that.   That is not collective security...that is negligence and incompetence by DND.

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/world/asia/afghanistan-war-documents.amp.html

That's what happens when you go to war for someone who then decides to go to war with someone else.  

I bet there are some americans still looking for those wmd's.  

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/world/asia/afghanistan-war-documents.amp.html

That's what happens when you go to war for someone who then decides to go to war with someone else.  

I bet there are some americans still looking for those wmd's.  

 

All the more reason to go your own way....remember your defence minister masterminded Operation Medusa all by himself !

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sajjan-taliban-architect-afghanistan-1.4089944

[Cannucklehead]

22 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

All the more reason to go your own way....remember your defence minister masterminded Operation Medusa all by himself !

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sajjan-taliban-architect-afghanistan-1.4089944

But then who would you invoke article 5 to? 

Not that your trump isn't free of mis-speak either.  

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna952336

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

They did...Canada needed to hitch a ride with the U.S. military.   JTF2 was not properly supported by Ottawa in 2001, and we all know what happened to Canadian Forces after that.   That is not collective security...that is negligence and incompetence by DND.

I'm not saying Canadian military isn't a POS.  As in terribly funded.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Moonlight Graham

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I'm not saying Canadian military isn't a POS.  As in terribly funded.

 

Canadian Forces ARE NOT a "POS"....they are woefully underfunded and abandoned by domestic politics.  

Trump is not attacking Canadian Forces for the funding/spending policy decisions they do not control.

It is your government(s)...regardless of ruling party....that then have the unmitigated gall to demand that Trump/America continue to defend the "post WW2 order".

Oh, and while you're at it....fight China for us too !

Edited December 17, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Correct..the USA spends that kind of money for U.S. interests...not yours.

The West is not going to "fight China"....the West is investing in China.

China is going to take our money and screw us with it at the same time when they have the power and means to do so.  They're already doing it.

Canada, Britain, France's etc security is in America's security interests.  And America's security is in their interests.  That's why NATO exists.  Canada buys tons of stuff from America and nice versa.  If we lose, you lose.  America is not an island.  Most of the wars of the 21st century aren't going to be on the battlefield. I say US gov sucks u get mad, I say I like them you say it's because i want to mooch lol.  Stop being so defensive and stubborn.

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

China now provides more UN troops than Canada or the United States.

Because they have the largest army in the world.  When China can afford to arm them that's not going to be fun now is it.

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Guess what ?   The Americans have been doing things that China can only dream of for over 50 years, and that includes spying on Canada.   Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

US can spy on Canada we can't stop them.  US gov spies on you too.  But Canada's not the threat.

[bush_cheney2004]

10 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

China is going to take our money and screw us with it at the same time when they have the power and means to do so.  They're already doing it.

 

So ?   The West wants access to the growing middle class in China.   Make big money.    Get Chinese capital.

 

Quote

Canada, Britain, France's etc security is in America's security interests.  And America's security is in their interests.  That's why NATO exists.  Canada buys tons of stuff from America and nice versa.  If we lose, you lose.  America is not an island.  Most of the wars of the 21st century aren't going to be on the battlefield. I say US gov sucks u get mad, I say I like them you say it's because i want to mooch lol.  Stop being so defensive and stubborn.

 

NATO is not about stopping China.  

I don't care what you say about my government...it doesn't matter because your government and the EU governments refuse to spend enough for their own defense, and expect mine to cover their asses.

Afraid of Russia...afraid of China....afraid of doing anything about it.

 

Quote

Because they have the largest army in the world.  When China can afford to arm them that's not going to be fun now is it.

US can spy on Canada we can't stop them.  US gov spies on you too.  But Canada's not the threat.

 

Agreed...Canada has made itself irrelevant.   By choice...so live with it without hiding behind the Americans when the bogeyman scares you.

 

 

 

[Yzermandius19]

15 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Any time there's hot sustained growth there's eventually a market correction.  China will be no different, no market can keep an uninterrupted hot growth pace.  It happened to the US and everyone else numerous times, including 1929.  But longterm I don't see how China does not fly past the US.  Demographics + time.  Any market correction will just be a temporary setback, just like the USA.

Wrong. This is not just a market correction, unsustainable growth rates don't come back, they occur because the market hasn't been fully exploited using technology and human capital, once a nation closes that gap, the growth rates do not continue and settle in too a much lower growth rate. That is what happened in Japan, back when Japan wasn't that wealthy they had high growth rates, but once it caught it up to other well off nations, there was nowhere near as much room to expand, and after the market correction, those growth rates did not come back, and they aren't going to come back.

You assuming China will continue those high growth rates forever, when those growth rates are based on starting so far behind, that is simply economic illiteracy. Once China catches up to a certain point, those growth rates are never coming back, so projecting these ridiculously high growth rates decades into the future, long after China will have surpassed that point, is the kind of foolish nonsense people were saying about Japan 40 years ago. China is not going to keep growing at the same rate it did in mid 2000's to the mid 2010's, just as Japan wasn't going to continue growing at the same rate it did in mid 1970's to mid 1980's.

Current trends do not remain the same long into the future, the way the projections you are using to come to your conclusions assume they will for nearly 100 years which is just asinine. Do not put any stock into these outlandish claims that will never come to pass, if these kinds of projections could be trusted, Japan would have become the largest economy in the world long ago. Japan back then, like China now, was producing cheap manufactured goods for export to America, as the basis of it's economic growth, but once the Japanese people got wealthier they had to pay their workers more, which means other far less wealthy countries like China were able to produce those goods cheaper. That same thing that happened to Japan then, is happening to China now, and once that process is complete and new low wage manufacturing cheap goods producers comes along, which is inevitable and already happening, China's growth rates will take a dive just like Japan's before them and India will likely the biggest beneficiary.

You will then no doubt claiming that India is going to surpass America, but the same thing will happen to India, that happened to Japan and China before it. So enough of the premature assuming that America is destined to be surpassed any time soon, that ain't going to happen. All that will happen is musical chairs with cheap manufacturing exporters, but the King stays the King, King Dollar will rule for some time to come.

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Yzermandius19