WestCanMan Posted May 19, 2019 Report Share Posted May 19, 2019 26 minutes ago, Argus said: Obama was largely useless in foreign policy terms, too. So you're saying Trump is also useless? I'm saying that Trump was far stronger than a very popular US President. Who's going to be stronger? Bernie? Buitigieg? Biden? The only Dem who's tough on China is Schumer and he's not running for Prez. No one will stand up to China like Trump is. No one. Quote Uh huh. And yet, Assad is now firmly in charge, with Russia backing him. Nice job! The US isn't going to control every square inch of the middle east. They're unpopular enough as it is at their current level of influence. You never want to spread yourself too thin. And if you think about all of the things that people in the ME have to hate the US for, Trump didn't do any of it. He was even popular for standing up to Assad. Quote Trump didn't do shit. You could have stopped right there and you would have been more accurate. Trump let the people most capable of handling that job, handle that job. That's what real leaders do. They delegate instead of micro-managing. So in a sense Trump didn't do shit, but he did a good job of it. If Trudeau didn't do anything it would have been a massive improvement lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted May 20, 2019 Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Argus said: And yet, Assad is now firmly in charge, with Russia backing him. Nice job! Actually a nice job is to de-escalate expensive, useless military operations without conceding their failure. Syria and Russia have been allies for many years. It would be difficult to change that without risking much more than it is worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 20, 2019 Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 16 hours ago, WestCanMan said: I'm saying that Trump was far stronger than a very popular US President. You can say Trump is stronger or orangier or has the biggliest hands all you want. He has succeeded in nothing whatsoever. American no longer has any allies except Israel. Even the ones who pretend to be would throw a giant party if Trump died. He is hated across the world. The only people who like him are dictators because all you have to do is flatter him to get anything you want. 16 hours ago, WestCanMan said: Who's going to be stronger? Bernie? Buitigieg? Biden? The only Dem who's tough on China is Schumer and he's not running for Prez. No one will stand up to China like Trump is. No one. Why this emphasis on 'strong'. How about 'smart'? Or is that too much for even a devoted Trumpist to even consider a possibility. Almost anyone would be smarter than Trump. The man is a certifiable moron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlus Magnus Posted May 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 16 hours ago, Argus said: Obama was largely useless in foreign policy terms, too. So you're saying Trump is also useless? I don't think Trump has hurt us at all in Foreign Policy. First of all, no new wars at this point. He has peace talks in Afghanistan and North Korea. Trump's Foreign Policy is hardline Diplomacy, backed up with military threat. He uses the press' opinion that he's a crazy man to his favor. Not the first US POTUS to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 20, 2019 Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 Just now, Carlus Magnus said: I don't think Trump has hurt us at all in Foreign Policy. First of all, no new wars at this point. He has peace talks in Afghanistan and North Korea. Trump's Foreign Policy is hardline Diplomacy, backed up with military threat. He uses the press' opinion that he's a crazy man to his favor. Not the first US POTUS to do that. Trump is an ignorant and easily manipulated fool. The Saudis and Israelis are busily manipulating him into a war with Iran even now. Meanwhile, the real power the US has used for forty years is soft power, and Trump has squandered it. Instead of persuading countries, even allies, and making deals behind the scenes, he insults and yells and threatens them like a demented child. The Chinese and Russians are growing more and more influential throughout the world, making deals everywhere from Europe to Africa, to South America and throughout Asia. Trump meanwhile still hasn't even nominated people to fill the important posts in the State Department which would oversee these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlus Magnus Posted May 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Argus said: Trump is an ignorant and easily manipulated fool. The Saudis and Israelis are busily manipulating him into a war with Iran even now. Meanwhile, the real power the US has used for forty years is soft power, and Trump has squandered it. Instead of persuading countries, even allies, and making deals behind the scenes, he insults and yells and threatens them like a demented child. The Chinese and Russians are growing more and more influential throughout the world, making deals everywhere from Europe to Africa, to South America and throughout Asia. Trump meanwhile still hasn't even nominated people to fill the important posts in the State Department which would oversee these things. [golf clap] Congratulations. That's what the press is saying about Trump. If our allies are making deals behind the scenes are they our allies ? All this panic over Russia while Germany and much of the EU make deals with Russia for natural gas. Yet those fuckers want us there to defend them against Russia. Adding more bureaucrats ≠ getting more done. We have a government that is bloated with unnecessary administrative positions. Having a few less State Department turds is fine by me. I worked with those fuckers, and they are dirty dealers. They are part of the reason so many people around the world dislike the US in their country. I've seen first hand and had to deal with the fallout of their bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 20, 2019 Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 52 minutes ago, Carlus Magnus said: [golf clap] Congratulations. That's what the press is saying about Trump. So? The press is always wrong? 52 minutes ago, Carlus Magnus said: If our allies are making deals behind the scenes are they our allies ? All this panic over Russia while Germany and much of the EU make deals with Russia for natural gas. Yet those fuckers want us there to defend them against Russia. Everyone makes deals behind the scenes. That's how international politics and relationships work. 52 minutes ago, Carlus Magnus said: Adding more bureaucrats ≠ getting more done. We have a government that is bloated with unnecessary administrative positions. Having a few less State Department turds is fine by me. I worked with those fuckers, and they are dirty dealers. They are part of the reason so many people around the world dislike the US in their country. I've seen first hand and had to deal with the fallout of their bullshit. Bullshit is a requirement of the profession. The Chinese are full of it, and they're at every international meeting, smiling and offering money and trade deals and resource development and loans and bribes. Who gives a shit? Maybe when your companies try buying resources the Chinese have locked up for their companies you'll notice the difference. Maybe when your companies try exporting to companies controlled by the Chinese you'll notice the difference. A diplomat, I think Japanese or something, observed more than a year ago that at every international meeting and gathering there are dozens of Chinese diplomats there making deals and whispering in ears, along with maybe one or perhaps two American diplomats without the authority to actually commit to anything. The Chinese are eating your lunch. Dirty dealing? The Chinese offer bribes to government leaders who they're negotiating loans with - loans they know will not be paid back. And when the loans fail they demand alternative payment. They've already taken over several ports around the world, taking them away from the nations in which they reside, in lieu of payment on their loans. Now THAT'S dirty dealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlus Magnus Posted May 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Argus said: So? The press is always wrong? They have a HORRIBLE track record when it comes to Trump. Absolutely horrendous at reporting facts and predicting the affects of Trump and Trump policy. The corporate media is a train wreck on Trump. Just fact. When the corporate media talks about Trump be skeptical. 1 hour ago, Argus said: Everyone makes deals behind the scenes. That's how international politics and relationships work. The Krauts are double dealing with the US and Russia. No loyalty to the US for 70 years of protection, rebuilding their industrial power and infrastructure. Fuck the Krauts. I'm happy Trump called them out for having energy deals with Russia, while begging the US for Defense help. 1 hour ago, Argus said: Bullshit is a requirement of the profession. The Chinese are full of it, and they're at every international meeting, smiling and offering money and trade deals and resource development and loans and bribes. You make an excellent case for Trump to get tough on China. I'm glad he's laying down the law with them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 20, 2019 Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Argus said: Meanwhile, the real power the US has used for forty years is soft power, and Trump has squandered it. Instead of persuading countries, even allies, and making deals behind the scenes, he insults and yells and threatens them like a demented child. The Chinese and Russians are growing more and more influential throughout the world, making deals everywhere from Europe to Africa, to South America and throughout Asia. Trump meanwhile still hasn't even nominated people to fill the important posts in the State Department which would oversee these things. Still better than NATO deadbeat Canada, which doesn't even have a permanent ambassador in China and more citizens detained or sentenced to death because Trump has taken action against Chinese trade practices and perps like Meng. Chrystia Freeland begged Trump to protect the "post WW2 order" even while Canada grows weaker in leadership and capability for soft or hard power. Canada is more dependent on exports than China, and will always depend on the U.S. to do the heavy lifting, regardless of who the president is....Bush...Obama....Trump....whomever. Edited May 20, 2019 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 20, 2019 Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 18 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Still better than NATO deadbeat Canada, That always seems to be your fallback. "Yeah, we suck ass, but hey, we're not as bad as that country one tenth our size!" Grats, big boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 20, 2019 Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 49 minutes ago, Carlus Magnus said: They have a HORRIBLE track record when it comes to Trump. You mean a horrible track record of exposing his lies, cheating and corruption? 49 minutes ago, Carlus Magnus said: The Krauts are double dealing with the US and Russia. No loyalty to the US for 70 years of protection, rebuilding their industrial power and infrastructure. Fuck the Krauts. I'm happy Trump called them out for having energy deals with Russia, while begging the US for Defense help. I don't disagree that Germans have been whoring themselves to the Russians for gas while neglecting their military. That doesn't mean bullying, threatening and insulting EVERY democracy is a wise diplomatic move that will endear them to you, anymore than sucking up to every dictator will make them treat you more kindly. 49 minutes ago, Carlus Magnus said: You make an excellent case for Trump to get tough on China. I'm glad he's laying down the law with them too. Uh, yeah, sure. So far Chinese exports to the US are way up and US exports to China are way down. Yay Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlus Magnus Posted May 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 The Press does have a horrible track record on Trump. 1. Trump is only running to promote his TV show 2. Trump won't make it passed the first debate 3. Trump won't get to Iowa and New Hampshire primaries 4. Trump won't win the GPO 5. Trump will lose in a landslide to Hillary 6. A Trump election will destroy the markets 7. Trump colluded with Russia 8. Trump is guilty of obstruction 9. The walls are closing in on Trump 10. Trump will be removed from office 11. Trump will start a nuclear war with North Korea 12.Trump was not spied on by the Obama Admin That's a sampling It's getting clearer and clearer daily that the Obama Administration spied on Trump and politicized the DOJ and FBI. A helluva legacy for BHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted May 20, 2019 Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 3 hours ago, Argus said: You can say Trump is stronger or orangier or has the biggliest hands all you want. He has succeeded in nothing whatsoever. American no longer has any allies except Israel. Even the ones who pretend to be would throw a giant party if Trump died. He is hated across the world. The only people who like him are dictators because all you have to do is flatter him to get anything you want. Now you're just chucking stupid crap against the wall to see what sticks. That was really pathetic Argus. Canada is the country that's alienating other nations right now, in a big way. He pissed off Japan, India, Saudi Arabia, China, America, and the only people that he has improved our relationship with is terrorists. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-india-atwal-controversy-1.4546502 https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-trudeau-flirts-with-terrorist-supporters-angers-india-again We're publicly pandering to actual terrorists like no other country outside of Iran. And if you recall, it wasn't Trump that started off the spat with us, it was the other way around. Quote Why this emphasis on 'strong'. How about 'smart'? Or is that too much for even a devoted Trumpist to even consider a possibility. Almost anyone would be smarter than Trump. The man is a certifiable moron. Strength is hugely important, and being smart is 90% of it. Trump was brilliant in Syria. Brilliant. Trump came into a situation where the US was committed to deposing Assad and Islamic State was growing like a weed in Syria and Iraq. Trump made a huge concession, and made the USA look like the good guys, when he publicly dialled back America's intention to get rid of Assad. Assad took that for weakness, and gassed some folks. Trump made the USA look strong by bombing Syrian targets. So for the second time, Trump made the US look awesome. Russian and Syria piled on huge threats of disaster if the US did anything so stupid again. Syria gassed more people, Trump bombed them again. Russia and Syria did nothing to retaliate. They just sat there with egg all over their faces. Final score Trump 3 full points, Syria zero, Russia zeeee-roooo. Remember Trump was a noob politician who suddenly became POTUS going up against a well-seasoned Russian leader. Putin manipulated his way up through the ranks of the KGB to take over the country, and was then able to seize power in a very meaningful way. He took over Crimea and laughed at the world. Obama just kept navel-gazing the whole time. Then Putin came up against Trump and got pancaked. I know you wish that Trump was stupid enough to wrestle for control of Syria. Sun Tzu knew the cost of waging foreign campaigns a couple thousand years ago. Trump knows it now. He's not going to fight against Russia and Syria in Syria. With all the casualties and starving people there Trump isn't going to extend that war, Americans would never stomach it, they'd have a hard time winning, they'd look like monsters..... I know that you don't get it. Trump does. That's why he's POTUS and you're just Argus. Then there's also this: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american-commandos-russian-mercenaries-syria.html From a liberal rag no less. The world outside of the US went to shit under Obama, and the country was on fire internally for his last two years. Racial division was exploding. Now it's just the US economy that's on fire. Islamic State is no longer a land-owner. The US hasn't made any enemies abroad since 2016 (that's unique) and they're standing up to the Chinese economy. You have nothing to contribute to the anti-Trump argument but hollow insults. Now you know how CNN feels. You say that he's stupid, crazy, etc but you can't point to anything tangible that has gone wrong under Trump yet. He hasn't given an inch to NoKo. Russia. China. Iran. He hasn't made a mistake internationally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 20, 2019 Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 38 minutes ago, Argus said: That always seems to be your fallback. "Yeah, we suck ass, but hey, we're not as bad as that country one tenth our size!" Grats, big boy. Thank you...because it works. Part of Obama's legacy was to tell Canada's Parliament just how much of a NATO deadbeat your county is....Trump did the same. But wait...there is hope for Canada after all....Trump approved the Keystone XL pipeline after Obama said hell no...his "legacy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlus Magnus Posted May 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 4 hours ago, Argus said: Why this emphasis on 'strong'. How about 'smart'? Or is that too much for even a devoted Trumpist to even consider a possibility. Almost anyone would be smarter than Trump. The man is a certifiable moron. Let's see here, I'm being told Trump is a Moron. Trump is a criminal, Trump colluded with Russia. Investigation found no chargeable evidence or Trump collusion or obstruction or criminal activity by Trump. What you are saying doesn't make any sense. You make him out to be stupid criminal. If he was a stupid criminal he's at least smarter than the full weight of the US DOJ and FBI. If the FBI and DOJ are competent, and Trump is a criminal then Trump is a fucking criminal master mind and outwitted all the FOJ/FBI. Logically you can't have it both ways. Your arguments don't stand up to logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 20, 2019 Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 (edited) How President Obama dissed Canada's pipeline hopes after approving enough oil and gas pipelines to circle the earth: The Keystone XL pipeline is dead. Here's why Obama rejected it. Just another part of Obama's "legacy"...hope and change. So Trump changed it. Edited May 20, 2019 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egghead Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 On 5/20/2019 at 1:11 PM, bush_cheney2004 said: How President Obama dissed Canada's pipeline hopes after approving enough oil and gas pipelines to circle the earth: The Keystone XL pipeline is dead. Here's why Obama rejected it. Just another part of Obama's "legacy"...hope and change. So Trump changed it. Keystone XL pipeline is kicking in Texas. And you know what, now, unlike BC, protesting pipelines is a crime in Texas BTW, the rumor has it that Syrian government is using chemical weapons again. Will Trump like Obama turned into neutered chihuahua after putin told him to shut up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, egghead said: BTW, the rumor has it that Syrian government is using chemical weapons again. Will Trump like Obama turned into neutered chihuahua after putin told him to shut up Trump already attacked Syrian aircraft at its Shayrat Airbase for using chemical weapons in 2017. Canada/Trudeau did nothing....of course....as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Trump already attacked Syrian aircraft at its Shayrat Airbase for using chemical weapons in 2017. Canada/Trudeau did nothing....of course....as usual. Yeah well, Canada didn’t participate in the second invasion of Iraq that created situations like Abu Graib and the Shiite oppression that spawned ISIS. Canada did get saddled with the cleanup costs of accepting 40000 Syrian refugees. Funny how certain “NATO deadbeats” pay a great sum to rebuild and stabilize regions after US-led interventions. I’ll grant that Trump uses more threats than actual military force. I wonder if his diplomatic skills have reduced the risk of a nuclear Iran. The decision to overspend on military is a US decision and is not being called for by NATO. We do ask that the POTUS not cozy up to dictators, overlook human rights abuses, or insult allies. Edited May 23, 2019 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: Yeah well, Canada didn’t participate in the second invasion of Iraq that created situations like Abu Graib and the Shiite oppression that spawned ISIS. Canada did get saddled with the cleanup costs of accepting 40000 Syrian refugees. Funny how certain “NATO deadbeats” pay a great sum to rebuild and stabilize regions after US-led interventions. I’ll grant that Trump uses more threats than actual military force. I wonder if his diplomatic skills have reduced the risk of a nuclear Iran. The decision to overspend on military is a US decision and is not being called for by NATO. We do ask that the POTUS not cozy up to dictators, overlook human rights abuses, and insult allies. Actually, Canada removed strike aircraft from the region after many bombing missions in Iraq and Syria. As before, Canadian oil services and mining companies want a piece of the action, and Ottawa is more than happy to oblige, complete with overlooking bribes. As for human rights abuses, Canada has plenty both at home and in other nations (e.g. Haiti). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Actually, Canada removed strike aircraft from the region after many bombing missions in Iraq and Syria. As before, Canadian oil services and mining companies want a piece of the action, and Ottawa is more than happy to oblige, complete with overlooking bribes. As for human rights abuses, Canada has plenty both at home and in other nations (e.g. Haiti). A lot of Canadian development aid to Haiti as well. A lot of police/military training and rebuilding from Canada in those invaded and war torn Middle Eastern countries. In spite of the Canadian holier then thou nonsense, we’ll always be there for our NATO allies when they are attacked, as in Afghanistan after 9/11. Edited May 23, 2019 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: A lot of Canadian development aid to Haiti as well. A lot of police/military training and rebuilding from Canada in those invaded and war torn Middle Eastern countries. In spite of the Canadian holier then thou nonsense, we’ll always be there for our NATO allies when they are attacked, as in Afghanistan after 9/11. Sure...whatever is in Canada's best interest...just as it should be. If that means playing the game with Obama or whomever the U.S. president may be, then that is exactly what Canada will do. Such is the nature of the relationship. Obama's legacy reinforced the relationship and dependency, even as he shut the door on Keystone XL and implemented protectionist policies (e.g. "Buy American"), because he could do so with relative impunity. Edited May 23, 2019 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Sure...whatever is in Canada's best interest...just as it should be. If that means playing the game with Obama or whomever the U.S. president may be, then that is exactly what Canada will do. Such is the nature of the relationship. Obama's legacy reinforced the relationship and dependency, even as he shut the door on Keystone XL and implemented protectionist policies (e.g. "Buy American"). Yeah but Keystone is taking time to build with court challenges. Moving faster than TransMountain I guess. Give Obama some credit for tracking down and killing Bin Laden and bringing better health care to the uninsured. Buy American will always be a popular domestic campaign under any party I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Give Obama some credit for tracking down and killing Bin Laden and bringing better health care to the uninsured. Buy American will always be a popular domestic campaign under any party I think. President Obama certainly gets/got credit, but it would not have been possible without the "extreme" interrogation methods from the Bush/Cheney administration that many criticized. Obama would come to understand such things, including not closing 'Gitmo and authorizing drone killings of American citizens without due process. Obama did not bring better health care to the uninsured, he disrupted and redistributed the existing public and private health care insurance market, refusing to attempt single payer and keeping profits for insurance companies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: President Obama certainly gets/got credit, but it would not have been possible without the "extreme" interrogation methods from the Bush/Cheney administration that many criticized. Obama would come to understand such things, including not closing 'Gitmo and authorizing drone killings of American citizens without due process. Obama did not bring better health care to the uninsured, he disrupted and redistributed the existing public and private health care insurance market, refusing to attempt single payer and keeping profits for insurance companies. My understanding is that coverage was expanded at the bottom end for tens of thousands of uninsured. I wonder if single payer would fly down there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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