PIK Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) Time for trudeau to do wahrt is right for once. And that is stick with our allies and tell china to take thier government controlled company and shove it. If trudeau allows them to set up shop here, we will have absolutely no friends left in the world. And all back our ambassador from china, because the man is not capable of doing the job. He was sent thier so trudeau could hide him and the chinese know that. Edited January 18, 2019 by PIK 1 Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Dougie93 Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 It's too late now anyways, they've already lost the face, so you can't make them whole by giving her back now. PRC ambassador Lu Shaye just went on tv and said it "giving her back will have no effect on the status of the Canadians detained".
Dougie93 Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) As to the competence of the Canadian Ambassador to China, John McCallum PC, I've met the man and spoken to him at some length, when he was Minister for National Defence, and he seemed an eminently reasonable fellow to me, and very advised, particularly to the mechanisms of government, trade, and associated diplomacy, so I find him to be quite capable, and that's probably why they chose him. But he didn't make any of this happen, because this was sprung on Canada no notice, by the Americans. My assumption is as part of a FVEY operation inclusive to the ongoing Huawei information war between FVEY and the PLA. Edited January 18, 2019 by Dougie93
Argus Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, turningrite said: China has played its hand very badly in its dispute with Canada. The rest of the Western world, and its allies, are now on notice that China is not a reliable or palatable partner. The West could pretty much wall itself off from China economically if it wished to do so. There are many other countries in the developing world, like India, Indonesia, Vietnam and Ethiopia, with cheap and abundant labor, which has been China's main trade advantage over the past few decades. The West could even entice some of the world's developing countries to avoid developing deeper relationships with China by means of pacts like the TPP that were/are intended to thwart China's mercantile ambitions. China may not and probably doesn't need Canada, but it needs the West, and it seems to have horribly misjudged its strengths and weaknesses with its bizarre strategy of applying unwarranted pressure against a Western country it perhaps accurately views as being run by a weak and servile government. The problem for China is that it's teaching not just Canada but the world why it can't and shouldn't be trusted. I think we missed an excellent chance to buff up Mexico's economy at China's expense by not including language in the trade pact which gave particularly tax breaks to companies which located to Mexico from China. Mexico has lower wages, too. The better the economy and the more jobs available the fewer migrants will be trying to climb Trump's wall. So win, win all around (except for the Chinese). 1 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Zeitgeist Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, PIK said: Time for trudeau to do wahrt is right for once. And that is stick with our allies and tell china to take thier government controlled company and shove it. If trudeau allows them to set up shop here, we will have absolutely no friends left in the world. And all back our ambassador from china, because the man is not capable of doing the job. He was sent thier so trudeau could hide him and the chinese know that. Let the courts decide. The worst thing we could do is allow political interference. That would make us no better than the Chinese or Trump, who wanted to make Meng a bargaining chip in trade negotiations.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said: Let the courts decide. The worst thing we could do is allow political interference. That would make us no better than the Chinese or Trump, who wanted to make Meng a bargaining chip in trade negotiations. There is nothing special about Canadian courts compared to others...lots of "politics" there too. Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: There is nothing special about Canadian courts compared to others...lots of "politics" there too. But don’t you see that neither Canada nor the US will be able to defend a court decision that comes across as use of the judiciary to achieve a Mercantilist purpose?
Dougie93 Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 It's defended by the Joint Strategic Deterrent and associated Five Eyes target intelligence.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: But don’t you see that neither Canada nor the US will be able to defend a court decision that comes across as use of the judiciary to achieve a Mercantilist purpose? Why should they....as they have already made " Mercantilist " decisions. Nothing special about the courts, which are ultimately just another branch of government. Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Why should they....as they have already made " Mercantilist " decisions. Nothing special about the courts, which are ultimately just another branch of government. The courts are there to interpret law, not make law, unless a new precedent is set, but the optics have to be that the courts decide alone, without interference.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 Just now, Zeitgeist said: The courts are there to interpret law, not make law, unless a new precedent is set, but the optics have to be that the courts decide alone, without interference. And that's all it is...."optics"...while being every bit as influenced and biased by contemporary political and economic conditions. Justices are appointed in Canada too, aren't they...with far less confirmation challenge. Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: And that's all it is...."optics"...while being every bit as influenced and biased by contemporary political and economic conditions. Justices are appointed in Canada too, aren't they...with far less confirmation challenge. In politics perception is reality. I think perception should be accurate, but if we send the message that the courts are a trade tool, they will be used as such.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: In politics perception is reality. I think perception should be accurate, but if we send the message that the courts are a trade tool, they will be used as such. They already are....even in ***gasp***...Canada. Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: They already are....even in ***gasp***...Canada. And don’t kid yourself, the Americans use the Canadian brand to get things done. Sadly for China, Trudeau has/had sincere admiration for China. If Trudeau’s fortunes suffer, so will China’s in North America, unless Trudeau disavows China, which I could see him doing for political gain.
Dougie93 Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 All to the good, crisis meet opportunity, the Trudeaupian naivete is coming back to haunt the electorate already, fetch the rope.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 Just now, Zeitgeist said: And don’t kid yourself, the Americans use the Canadian brand to get things done. Sadly for China, Trudeau has/had sincere admiration for China. If Trudeau’s fortunes suffer, so will China’s in North America, unless Trudeau disavows China, which I could see him doing for political gain. I sure hope so...the Americans are not nearly as naive on such things. Trudeau made his own bed, and now Canada has to sleep in it. Economics trumps Virtue.
Zeitgeist Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: I sure hope so...the Americans are not nearly as naive on such things. Trudeau made his own bed, and now Canada has to sleep in it. No. Canadians are assessing Trudeau’s political currency in relation to Trump, Xi, Putin, Macron, May and others. In that company he may be at an advantage.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: No. Canadians are assessing Trudeau’s political currency in relation to Trump, Xi, Putin, Macron, May and others. In that company he may be at an advantage. Even at that Trudeau is faring far worse...in Canada. He is perceived as a weak leader...domestically...and internationally. He cannot run with the big dogs. Economics trumps Virtue.
Dougie93 Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 It's not so much that they can't, they just don't want to because de facto agents of Beijing are a large component of the Liberal's donor class. For all we know Meng Wangzhou is a donor and that's why she figured she was safe in Canada.
Dougie93 Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 I mean, why would someone like Meng Wanzhou set up residence inside the Five Eyes security zone beyond reach of the PLA, if she didn't think she was politically protected from the Americans somehow?
Dougie93 Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 Because through their proxies Beijing has said "White Supremacist plot against China!" which seems to invoke the Reb Menace in Washington. And then they said "Trudeau is a backstabber!" which seems to imply that there was some sort of deal in place to protect her from the aforementioned Reb Menace, and now Trudeau is failing to live up to his end of the Faustian Bargain,
Dougie93 Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 Which, yes, knowing the Chicoms, would really piss them off. Which would explain the overreaction.
turningrite Posted January 23, 2019 Author Report Posted January 23, 2019 On 1/18/2019 at 7:25 PM, bush_cheney2004 said: Even at that Trudeau is faring far worse...in Canada. He is perceived as a weak leader...domestically...and internationally. He cannot run with the big dogs. There has been much media commentary on the very issue of China's belief that Trudeau and Canada are weak. The vacuous Trudeau, of course, has been so obsequious in courting China that he probably expected to be rewarded and being slapped around by the Chinese must sting at this point. And we have the former (mediocre, in my opinion) immigration minister repackaged as our ambassador to China, who's mainly mimicked Trudeau's approach. Now, reportedly, McCallum is giving Ms. Meng advice on how to navigate the extradition process, which is astonishing. I'm sure the Chinese can afford Canadian lawyers to handle Ms. Meng's legal issues. So, unless McCallum is telegraphing the Trudeau government's preferred outcome here, why is McCallum doing this? And doesn't such interference suggest that the actual "rule of law" isn't a principle the Libs necessarily want to see upheld. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canadas-china-envoy-john-mccallum-says-huawei-executive-has-good/
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 23, 2019 Report Posted January 23, 2019 2 hours ago, turningrite said: .... So, unless McCallum is telegraphing the Trudeau government's preferred outcome here, why is McCallum doing this? And doesn't such interference suggest that the actual "rule of law" isn't a principle the Libs necessarily want to see upheld. Clearly the Trudeau government sees this as the way out of the Weng mess. There always was far more downside with China than with the Americans, and Trudeau missed his chance for some "creative incompetence" to protect Canadian interests. Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted January 23, 2019 Report Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) What's wrong with McCallum stating the obvious? Quote “I think she has quite good arguments on her side,” he said. "One, political involvement by comments from Donald Trump in her case. Two, there's an extraterritorial aspect to her case, and three, there's the issue of Iran sanctions which are involved in her case, and Canada does not sign on to these Iran sanctions. So I think she has some strong arguments that she can make before a judge," The obsequious case that will be made when the other Canadian political shoe drops of course is that we should stand by our allies no matter how swampy their quagmires get. The minute the court orders Meng's release Ottawa should announce a complete reassessment and overhaul of our nation's alliances. Edited January 23, 2019 by eyeball A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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