Should Canada suspend relations with China?

[Argus]

19 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Funny how they say China would never use naked force when in fact is using naked force right now.   I can certainly see them messing with an HMCS next time the RCN goes freedom of navigation through the China Seas, not enough to incite a war, but plenty enough to give Canadian Confederation a what for upside the head.

Run away and hide then, Dougie. Jump into your bomb shelter and tremble in fear and terror of the mighty Chinese navy.

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

Run away and hide then, Dougie. Jump into your bomb shelter and tremble in fear and terror of the mighty Chinese navy.

It's of no particular concern to me, having no more investment in it, I'm rather enjoying seeing Canada get its comeuppance. Merely pointing out that kidnapping your citizens is already naked force.

[Dougie93]

In terms of the PLAN in the China Seas, nobody is going to war for semi-commie free rider Canada, it only becomes a concern  when, where and if the PLAN attempts to impede American freedom of navigation.

[eyeball]

23 hours ago, turningrite said:

I too believe that the West needs to entirely reevaluate its views about China. Canada's obsequious approach has accomplished little or nothing for us.

This was obvious decades ago and looking around the world its obvious what obsequiousness to the principle of putting economics ahead of virtue can do to a planet.  We knew better but..I blame it on too much thinking with our heads and ridiculing the idea that our hearts should have much if anything to do with...anything.

I think a lot of Canada's approach on the global cat-walk is best captured by the continued sale of LAV's to Saudi Arabia. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by eyeball

[Dougie93]

The principle of the free market is rather that governments have little effect on market forces but are in fact subject to them as much as anybody else is, resulting in the failure of the World Socialist Revolution of supposed virtue, the real virtue being that markets cannot be controlled by Bolsheviks after all.

[Yzermandius19]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

No, they won't. The world has no need of China. All China produces is cheap consumer and electronic goods, which can be made almost anywhere. A lot of developing countries now have the educational and disciplined population to produce the same goods as China at a lower cost. The salaries for Mexicans are far lower than for Chinese workers, and Mexico can ship goods north a lot easier than China can ship them across the Pacific. China has no friends in the world and no allies. No one LIKES China, because the Chinese government are incredibly crude, and favour bribery and bullying over in their relations with other nations. 

Investment in China might be good for individual companies but of little economic use to the countries in which those companies are based. The bottom line on their quarterly reports might show strong sales in China for a variety of world conglomerates, but most of those goods are made in China by Chinese workers because China's government keeps a tight reign on imports of all but raw materials.

Canada doesn't have the high ground? Canada is a democracy with a naviely progressive government. China is a brutal dictatorship run by ruthless, murderous criminals. Its attacks on Canada through arresting Canadian citizens are because China does not operate under the rule of law, while Canada does. To suggest that Canada doesn't have the high ground is so blindingly idiotic that one would have to question the location and political identification of the individual writing such a thing.

The world has no need of Canada. The world likes cheap consumer and electronic goods, the Chinese economy is far more important to the world than Canada's economy. China has plenty of friends and allies, everyone likes China, because no one who isn't living in China gives a shit about their repressive government, because that government isn't repressing them, it's repressing foreigners, but the money China makes them, that they do give a shit about, and China makes the world more money than Canada does.

I'm not talking about the moral high ground here, that means nothing, the only thing the world cares about is the financial high ground, morality comes after. For you to pretend like a $1.6 trillion GDP economy is more important to the world than a $12.2 trillion GDP economy is laughable, they are six times the size, they dwarf Canada. Get in a trade war with an economy that dwarfs your own, and you are going to get your ass handed to you, not the other way around. 

Morality shmorality, realpolitik doesn't give a shit.
/shrugs

Edited January 17, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

Moral high ground, plus the exact fare, gets you a ride on the public transit, who knew?

[Dougie93]

Moreover, the world doesn't really like Canada anymore than they like China.   Exactly as Bush_Cheney2004 often points out, Canada is the weakest link, but not just in FVEY, Canada is a weak leak in many chains around the world, although more though negligence by infantilization than malice.

[Dougie93]

To wit, while China is a ruthless bully, Canada is a helpless baby, and both are noxious in their own way.

[Yzermandius19]

15 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Moreover, the world doesn't really like Canada anymore than they like China.   Exactly as Bush_Cheney2004 often points out, Canada is the weakest link, but not just in FVEY, Canada is a weak leak in many chains around the world, although more though negligence by infantilization than malice.

Even if they did, more than 6x (or 12x if you go by GNP) the stuff to bribe other nations with makes the decision a no brainer, especially given that China is only going to increase that gap in the near future. Canada loses early in the first round of that hypothetical trade war.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Even if they did, more than 10x the stuff to bribe other nations with makes the decision a no brainer, especially given that China is only going to increase that gap in the near future.

But also Canada is simply a bad actor trade wise as well, same as China in essence, in that Canada wants access to everybody else's markets while Canada retains supply management.

[Dougie93]

Canada, like China, is also a bad actor on intellectual property.

[Dougie93]

Canada, like China, is also a bad actor on speech, repressive nanny police state kangaroo courts and associated Canadian Thought Police at the HRT

[Dougie93]

Canada, like China, also employs sleep derivation and isolation torture in its prisons.

[Zeitgeist]

51 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The world has no need of Canada. The world likes cheap consumer and electronic goods, the Chinese economy is far more important to the world than Canada's economy. China has plenty of friends and allies, everyone likes China, because no one who isn't living in China gives a shit about their repressive government, because that government isn't repressing them, it's repressing foreigners, but the money China makes them, that they do give a shit about, and China makes the world more money than Canada does.

I'm not taking moral high ground here, that means nothing, the only thing the world cares about is the financial high ground, morality comes after.

No it does not.  China is 30 times the size of Canada.  Of course China has more economic impact internationally than Canada, and what is that impact?  Developed countries import cheap goods, which makes items cheaper but also lowers wages and sends jobs to China.  Some of this has been good.  We hope China becomes a market for exports, but we don’t see much of that so far.  There are many countries like China with low wages and fewer workers’ rights that can and do make items that we buy   

The bigger issue for China is the weak democracy, lower freedom, less rule of law, and citizens’ rights overall.  China is a totalitarian regime where free speech and political opposition is limited, punishments are harsh, and there is tremendous pollution.  The international community understands that China is in transition and has cut China slack on trade and the environment. China has to come across better with fairness on trade.  

In terms of Canada’s value to the world, I do think that Canada is one of a small group of countries that continues to fight for greater freedoms and rights for people internationally, including for your country, Russia.  

Be careful what you wish for.  You may end up with more leadership like China’s and other dictatorships.  It would empower existing dictators to go further in limiting rights and freedoms. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

27 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

To wit, while China is a ruthless bully, Canada is a helpless baby, and both are noxious in their own way.

Interesting that you say that when Canada helped more Syrian refugees than many countries, including America. 

[Yzermandius19]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

No it does not.  China is 30 times the size of Canada.  Of course China has more economic impact internationally than Canada, and what is that impact?  Developed countries import cheap goods, which makes items cheaper but also lowers wages and sends jobs to China.  Some of this has been good.  We hope China becomes a market for exports, but we don’t see much of that so far.  There are many countries like China with low wages and fewer workers’ rights that can and do make items that we buy   

The bigger issue for China is the weak democracy, lower freedom, less rule of law, and citizens’ rights overall.  China is a totalitarian regime where free speech and political opposition is limited, punishments are harsh, and there is tremendous pollution.  The international community understands that China is in transition and has cut China slack on trade and the environment. China has to come across better with fairness on trade.  

In terms of Canada’s value to the world, I do think that Canada is one of a small group of countries that continues to fight for greater freedoms and rights for people internationally, including for your country, Russia.  

My point is that, if Canada wants a trade war with China and gives the world an ultimatum, Canada or China? The world is going to choose China, even with it's weaknesses, the world likes money, and China has a lot more of it than Canada does. So escalating shit with China, that isn't going to end in Canada's favor, so Canadians welcoming a tit for tat battle with China because of ideological opposition to China's repressive government, they are in for a rude awakening if they ever got their wish.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

No it does not.  China is 30 times the size of Canada.  Of course China has more economic impact internationally than Canada, and what is that impact?  Developed countries import cheap goods, which makes items cheaper but also lowers wages and sends jobs to China.  Some of this has been good.  We hope China becomes a market for exports, but we don’t see much of that so far.  There are many countries like China with low wages and fewer workers’ rights that can and do make items that we buy   

The bigger issue for China is the weak democracy, lower freedom, less rule of law, and citizens’ rights overall.  China is a totalitarian regime where free speech and political opposition is limited, punishments are harsh, and there is tremendous pollution.  The international community understands that China is in transition and has cut China slack on trade and the environment. China has to come across better with fairness on trade.  

In terms of Canada’s value to the world, I do think that Canada is one of a small group of countries that continues to fight for greater freedoms and rights for people internationally, including for your country, Russia.  

Canada also has a weak democracy, less rule of law, and citizens rights run roughshod over, by the far left, against speech, property, and self defence,

In terms of trade deficits, those are irrelevant, net importers can and do profit mightily, the Canadian nanny state welfare gulag fake job economy is simply moribund.

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

Canada also has a weak democracy, less rule of law, and citizens rights run roughshod over, by the far left, against speech, property, and self defence,

In terms of trade deficits, those are irrelevant, net importers can and do profit mightily, the Canadian nanny state welfare gulag fake job economy is simply moribund.

Absolute bullshit.  Have you traveled?  Canada is one of the freest countries and stands up for freedom abroad.  We can’t do it alone.  We always hope allies will fight too, but that’s not always certain.  

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Absolute bullshit.  Have you traveled?  Canada is one of the freest countries and stands up for freedom abroad.  We can’t do it alone.  We always hope allies will fight too, but that’s not always certain.  

Canada's democracy is obviously weak by nature, deliberately, by definition, as contrary to popular Canadian myth, Canada is a monarchy not a republic.

As such Canada is able to retain such archaic laws as "speech laws", "thought laws",  Canada is a notorious censor and property confiscator, and Canada prosecutes its people for simply defending themselves and their property while on their property, and if said persons invoke their right to it, Canada has Section 33 in its constitution.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

This is another reason why you should not invest in Canada and rather invest in America instead.

Whether you like or dislike the American people as a collective is neither here nor there, the point is simply that their constitution protects you more than your constitution does.

[Dougie93]

Once you absorb that, then you will come to understand that their Declaration of Independence and associated Constitution is in fact the light of civilization as we know it, and the only thing standing between you and the forces of darkness, everywhere. 

[Dougie93]

And bear in mind, as the servers for these forums are generally hosted in the CONUS, while Canada could and very plausibly would persecute and even attempt to prosecute you for what you post on an internet forum, thanks to the light of civilization in America, they could not censor it from the internet writ large.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The world has no need of Canada.

The world likes raw resources. It especially likes them coming from a stable country with a stable government which operates under the rule of law, a government which isn't going to arbitrarily seize their assets or have the supply upset by internal fighting. The world much prefers dealing with a country which operates under the rule of law than an outlaw nation.

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The world likes cheap consumer and electronic goods,

Which, as I have pointed out, can be made anywhere. Some US companies, like Apple, are already taking steps to move their production lines away from China.

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China has plenty of friends and allies, everyone likes China,

Name one. No matter what your government has told you, China is regarded as a semi-civilized bandit country run by corrupt, unpredictable and venal killers.

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'm not talking about the moral high ground here, that means nothing, the only thing the world cares about is the financial high ground, morality comes after. For you to pretend like a $1.6 trillion GDP economy is more important to the world than a $12.2 trillion GDP economy is laughable, they are six times the size, they dwarf Canada. Get in a trade war with an economy that dwarfs your own, and you are going to get your ass handed to you, not the other way around.

I'm not sure why you think this 'trade war' you're simpering about is going to impact the world at large. If China bars all Canadian imports and Canada bars all Chinese imports China loses considerably more than Canada. And the world will not care. And if you think the EU or US are going to take some kind of financial action against Canada because your government pressures them, well, that's just pathetic wishful thinking on your part.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Argus

[Dougie93]

Canada is however making itself into an outlaw nation as it so obviously falls on the undue influence of Beijing as a proxy against UKUSSA-FVEY