I'd like a referendum on the next Federal election ballot.

[Machjo]

1. Remain in the USMCA.

2. Unilateral global free trade within seventy years with initial steps in that direction within five years and additional steps taken every five years thereafter.

If the majority of Canadians vote option 2, Canada could still sign trade agreements with other states on the condition that those agreements do not restrict Canada's freedom to adopt unilateral global free trade in tariffs and quotas, with those agreements limiting themselves to non-tariff and non-quota matters like labelling and packaging rules, phytosanitary rules, etc.

Option 2would provide reasoanble clarity and reasonable flexibility built into its answer to ensure that Canada doesn't end up in the same mess as in the Brexit referendum. If any future government deos not like that direction, it could present another referendum on another federal election ballot to stop it; but since the referendum would call on Parliament to take some kind of step towards unilateral global free trade every five years, we'd have seen at least some improvement even if a futrue referendum puts a stop to that process. It would also give businesses more than enough time to adapt to the changes.

[Michael Hardner]

9 hours ago, Machjo said:

1. Remain in the USMCA.

2. Unilateral global free trade within seventy years with initial steps in that direction within five years and additional steps taken every five years thereafter.

3. If the majority of Canadians vote option 2, Canada could still sign trade agreements with other states on the condition that those agreements do not restrict Canada's freedom to adopt unilateral global free trade in tariffs and quotas, with those agreements limiting themselves to non-tariff and non-quota matters like labelling and packaging rules, phytosanitary rules, etc.

4. Option 2would provide reasoanble clarity and reasonable flexibility built into its answer to ensure that Canada doesn't end up in the same mess as in the Brexit referendum.

5. If any future government deos not like that direction, it could present another referendum on another federal election ballot to stop it;  

1. If there were interest/benefits to leaving USMCA a major party would pick up on that.  Let's see what the Green party said:
"Having a deal with our largest trading partner is essential for Ontario’s auto, steel, and agricultural industries. Greens support fair trade."

https://gpo.ca/2018/10/01/greens-call-on-government-to-stand-up-for-family-farms-against-us-corporations/

So, they have a tepid statement about standing up for our farmers but even they are not saying they would withdraw.

2. SEVENTY years ?  Did you mean seven ?  Seventy years is impossible to predict, and tantamount to never/forever.

3. Yes but those countries would just have to wait for unilateral trade to kick in.

4. Your idea would be less advantageous to Brexit as foreign competitors would be allowed in, even if Canadian companies were not allowed in.

5. They could do whatever they wanted, including rolling back the laws that you are proposing.  No government can pass a "this law can never change" law.

 

[xul]

Option 1 isn't the solution in the long term though it does buy Canada some time to make necessary change. USMCA is a dying mammoth . The mammoth is dying because its heart--the US economy is dying. The US economy is dying because Americans refuse to face their real problem but blaming others for their economic failure. They elected presidents who used CHANGE as their campaign slogan, but none of them made any real change at all on the failing system.

Option 2 is also not easy. 

1st. Canada is a democratic country which means Canada is politically correct and deems to be successful on everything...LOL...I'm joking....which  means Canada has 3 major political parties and unlikely all of them would reach a agreement for the long term.

2nd. "Unilateral global free trade" means you need to negotiate with many countries in the world which means it will far more difficult to reach an agreement than USMCA.

3rd. The hearts of people are so fickle nowadays that even a referendum won't guarantee the long time span of a policy. 

4th. Canada has been US economic colony so long that there are not many significant pure Canadian blood companies left in Canada except those government/taxpayers funded/payed blood sucker companies. Canada is like Project Alice, the female protagonist in the Film/Video Game Resident Evil, who looks gorgeous and magnificent but the Umbrella Corporation has a stop button. When Dr. Isaacs pushes the button, she will stop still like a statue.  

Edited December 16, 2018 by xul

[Rue]

9 hours ago, Machjo said:

1. Remain in the USMCA.

2. Unilateral global free trade within seventy years with initial steps in that direction within five years and additional steps taken every five years thereafter.

If the majority of Canadians vote option 2, Canada could still sign trade agreements with other states on the condition that those agreements do not restrict Canada's freedom to adopt unilateral global free trade in tariffs and quotas, with those agreements limiting themselves to non-tariff and non-quota matters like labelling and packaging rules, phytosanitary rules, etc.

Option 2would provide reasoanble clarity and reasonable flexibility built into its answer to ensure that Canada doesn't end up in the same mess as in the Brexit referendum. If any future government deos not like that direction, it could present another referendum on another federal election ballot to stop it; but since the referendum would call on Parliament to take some kind of step towards unilateral global free trade every five years, we'd have seen at least some improvement even if a futrue referendum puts a stop to that process. It would also give businesses more than enough time to adapt to the changes.

I again sympathize with your intent but defer to MH's comments. May I say free trade agreements are an silly term. There  is no such thing as free trade. I am sure you know that. These agreements try facilitate trade between nations in the agreements but if we had genuinely free markets no government would be able to regulate the market places which of course all 

Free trade with other countries is not the same as with the US. The only other country we can compare it to is China. China like the US is a monster economy and when they enter agreements just like the US they will dominate us. China uses its government monopoly on owning all businesses to make sure the Yen currency is always lower in value then any other currency  in nations it trades with so it can dump its products cheaper in their countries. .

China like the  US is not interested when it deals with nations in quid pro quo or a balanced trade deal. They are in it to win and win big by achieving trade imbalances, i.e., selling more to countries than they buy.

Free trade? Well no. The huge corporations that run the world's economy form coalitions all the time to assure they can control pricing and not allow it to be free which would mean pricing being determined  purely on supply and demand.  The only free markets these days so to speak are in small countries where you go to the market place to trade for fruit an vegetables.

Western governments in fact do the bidding of large self operating businesses. Its a symbiotic relationship. You can't survive as a leader of a nation without having Dow Chemical, Dupont, Colgate Palmolive, Coca Cola, etc., reminding you of what their needs are and how your policies should best support them. That is the way you keep people employed and your economy running. Its not exactly a secret. Its out in the open as each day millions of people go to jobs in such corporations which in Western democracies act as independent nations with their own gdp's, intelligence agencies and budgets larger than many government budgets.

The actual world markets  are chaotic and ever mutating in shape and size, made up of a complex web of financial networks coming together on some issues, then splitting to compete with each other on other issues which in turn causes a forever changing market place in size and value, We do have  nice neat illuminati conspiracy theories to try make sense of tis quagmire reducing it to one family or 13 families running everything to make it easy for conspiracy theorists to see order in the world of economic chaos.

The fact is you can't accurately predict as some claim all market changes. Many are started by panic or irrational assumptions not carefully planned market manipulation campaigns.

Money is in an illusion because money's value is never and can never be constant. As soon as a dollar  value is defined in one currency another country changes its own. This is of course caused by huge corporations working in a symbiotic relationship with the governments in the local they wish to trade in changing the currency value to facilitate their being able to trade their product in the market place of the currency they want to control. They want that currency level as favourable as possible to aid their trade price. So we don't determine price by supply and demand but by large business interests lobbying the government to do that. The one exception, China. 

Because China's government owns all its businesses, it controls the yen making it a far more efficient way to assure all its businesses have a trade advantage rather than have each Chinese company compete with other Chinese  companies and have a constant chaotic competition as to what the value should be.

Now we can bitch about the US or China  but we chose to allow their economic influence. As well, we do engage in the practice China does of lowering our currency to below the American one, to assure our products are cheaper which then triggers US retaliation in the form of tarrifs to tax our imports to offset their cheaper value.

[Rue]

27 minutes ago, xul said:

Option 1 isn't the solution in the long term though it does buy Canada some time to make necessary change. USMCA is a dying mammoth . The mammoth is dying because its heart--the US economy is dying. The US economy is dying because Americans refuse to face their real problem but blaming others for their economic failure. They elected presidents who used CHANGE as their campaign slogan, but none of them made any real change at all on the failing system.

Option 2 is also not easy. 

1st. Canada is a democratic country which means Canada is politically correct and deems to be successful on everything...LOL...I'm joking....which  means Canada has 3 major political parties and unlikely all of them would reach a agreement for the long term.

2nd. "Unilateral global free trade" means you need to negotiate with many countries in the world which means it will far more difficult to reach an agreement than USMCA.

3rd. The hearts of people are so fickle nowadays that even a referendum won't guarantee the long time span of a policy. 

4th. Canada has been US economic colony so long that there are not many significant pure Canadian blood companies left in Canada except those government/taxpayers funded/payed blood sucker companies. Canada is like Project Alice, the female protagonist in the Film/Video Game Resident Evil, who looks gorgeous and magnificent but the Umbrella Corporation has a stop button. When Dr. Isaacs pushes the button, she will stop still like a statue.  

My dear Comrade XUL:

Greetings from the nation known as Project Alice.

Please understand we Alicians  do not wish to be caught between yourselves and the Americans in your 

trade battle.

Now I understand you have 2 billion mouths to feed and so you are ruthless and unforgiving in your quest for

market control to sell your products but may I suggest dear Sir, that your monopoly on all your businesses

has grown far too  large to control and so corruption is rampant. As well, your masses who are in fact hungry

and do not share the profits and I am sure you know why. our profits are not being distributed to all citizens but

remain coagulated in small cells of bank accounts run by elite Communist Party members.

Look around dear Comrade, your Communist Party has so many layers of bureaucracy this enables the perfect

cover for certain Party members to  hide their misallocation of money. Of course any institution that grows

to large suffers from this so please do not think I pick on you.

You do have a real problem dear Comrade because unless you clean up your corrupt government, the masses in your country

will rise as they always do when elite Mandarins run it. You see we Alicians avoid such things. We are very polite.

We don't push in line and spit on the streets. We do have our virtues.

Listen Dear Comrade, I appreciate Donald Trump is a pain in everyone's bum-bum, but your trade war is with the

world not Canada. Kidnapping Canadians will not mean a thing to Trump. In fact it was a rather stupid thing to do. Do

you really think he cares about Canadians?  

One other thing Comrade. You see in Canada contrary to what you think, that boy with the pants pulled up to his

arm-pits and the delicately plucked eyebrows and manicured nails and who walks like he has a pretzel stuck up

his ass, does not, I repeat does not, have the power or ability as Prime Minister  to tell Judges how to handle

extradition requests. No politician in Canada does. Tell the idiots in your Foreign Ministry to learn about  how 

other countries' legal systems work. Your Foreign Ministry  is inept and so are the idiots we react with knee jerk 

anger. Trump has made monkeys out of you. Why would you react and have a tantrum to his taunts? You think

it shows strength to act like him in response? Are you people that collectively mentally retarded?

Comrade, please its nothing personal, our government and pretzel-assed Prime Minister are not one and the same

with our courts as your system is in.

Have your comrades think before they act. They twitch like North Koreans. Have them think logically not with

reactionary, subjective, irrational anger. For a nation so rich in Taoism and other philosophies that taught you not

to allow anger to cloud your judgements, your Commie comrades clearly need some basic spiritual training.

The problem with you atheists is you turn into absurd robots. Do watch Star Trek and in particular the Borg.

I do believe it capture the essence of your weaknesses. Also your fondness for goose stepping in parades 

we can discuss later. Between me and you, I know your pilots have no idea how to fly your gets but your

Navy is amazing. Very large. Oh come now Comrade after invading Vietnam and creating an artificial Island

do they really want to attack Japan or Formosa? Really? You got all the Vietnamese oil. What next,

Indonesia, the Phillippines? Really?  Lol. You woke Japan up and Formosa has a navy and air force as you are

well aware trained by your naval ally Israel. Stay calm. No nation wants problems with you. Relax.

Let the Canadians go. Wait for the courts to decide. Appeal the case to the Supreme Court of Canada if

necessary. By the time it is then decided, Trump could very well be out of office or someone in the US will

drop the extradition matter.

In the interim as its appealed, you can always use that fiasco to portray your nation as victims and not the

nasty predators you truly are. Play that idiot Trump's hand. When he puffs and farts at you, play the

victim underdog. He likes to be top dog tough guy for local media portrayals of how he stand up for

America. The same media he is trying to use to get to his people with the message of how tough he

is fighting or them is also running stories he is stark raving mad. Relax. You see in the US the media

is your best friend. Oh come now. You know that. You worked with the Late George W., Bill, Hilary, you

know damn well how to manipulate the government  and media and bribe the politicians in the US.

Your foreign spokesperson looked like an angry baboon. Tell him to stop flaring his nostrils. The ooh

I am angry shtick he plays, it reminds us of the Angry Martian reacting o Bugs Bunny. Have your 

foreign Ministry find out what that means.

Listen to me Comrade, Trump stated like the idiot he is that he would use that Chinese clone who runs

Hua Wei as leverage. He opened that up to his own courts and our courts to maybe being able to determine

by a Judge that the extradition request is for political reasons not legal ones and that may vacate the

order. So shut up and wait and let the system of law we have work itself out before you continue having 

tantrums.

Now before I say goodbye, please stop celling cell phones and electric equipment to spy on us. Just ask.

We are Canadians. We will tell you everything. Buy our maple syrup and oil, and we will tell you anything you need

to know about how to make a snowmobile.

 

Also have your people drive more carefully and try have them comeout of Scarborough and Vancouver, and

travel and talk to Canadians . We are nice. Also stop over programming your children with math and after school,

school. You might want to let them play sports, engage in art, woodwork, nature hikes. You have a lot of fat soft

children who can't handle walking let alone lifting anything. Comrade, I have welcomed Chinese children into my home

for years as they learn English. Some do well, namely the ones I  teach how to throw snowballs and eat something

other than boiled rice.

The others well my dear comrade, you have a generation of very soft, useless pampered Princes more concerned about

their hair and nails than working. Good luck on that.

Regards

Rue, the Political Shadow Man

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Rue

[Machjo]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. If there were interest/benefits to leaving USMCA a major party would pick up on that.  Let's see what the Green party said:
"Having a deal with our largest trading partner is essential for Ontario’s auto, steel, and agricultural industries. Greens support fair trade."

https://gpo.ca/2018/10/01/greens-call-on-government-to-stand-up-for-family-farms-against-us-corporations/

So, they have a tepid statement about standing up for our farmers but even they are not saying they would withdraw.

2. SEVENTY years ?  Did you mean seven ?  Seventy years is impossible to predict, and tantamount to never/forever.

3. Yes but those countries would just have to wait for unilateral trade to kick in.

4. Your idea would be less advantageous to Brexit as foreign competitors would be allowed in, even if Canadian companies were not allowed in.

5. They could do whatever they wanted, including rolling back the laws that you are proposing.  No government can pass a "this law can never change" law.

 

I did mean 70 years with inctemental steps every five years, and yes I know that any government could roll back any progress made. But politically, it would be difficult for a government to roll it back without a counter-referendum.

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, Machjo said:

I did mean 70 years with inctemental steps every five years, and yes I know that any government could roll back any progress made. But politically, it would be difficult for a government to roll it back without a counter-referendum.

When has there ever been a policy rolled in over 70 years ?  And since this is a brand new idea, the idea that rollback would be politically difficult is just another hypothetical... 

[xul]

47 minutes ago, Rue said:

My dear Comrade XUL:

Greetings from the nation known as Project Alice.

Please understand we Alicians  do not wish to be caught between yourselves and the Americans in your 

trade battle.

Now I understand you have 2 billion mouths to feed and so you are ruthless and unforgiving in your quest for

market control to sell your products to assure your citizens eat but my dear Sir, your monopoly on all your businesses

has grown to large and no longer benefits your masses who are in fact hungry and do not share the benefits.

Your profits are not being distributed to all citizens but remain coagulated in small cells of bank accounts run by

elite Communist Party members.

Look around dear Comrade, your Communist Party has so many layers of bureaucracy this enables the perfect

cover for certain Party members to  hide their misallocation of money.

You have a real problem dear Comrade. Unless you clean up your corrupt government, the masses in your country

will rise as they always do when elite Mandarins run it.

This time you will not be able to blame the British for the corruption. Its made in China by your comrades.

Listen Dear Comrade, I appreciate Donald Trump is a pain in everyone's bum-bum, but your trade war is with the

world not Canada. Kidnapping Canadians will not mean a thing to Trump. In fact it was a rather stupid thing to do. Do

you really think he cares about Canadians. Comrade tell the dummies in your foreign Ministry to kidnap people from

the country they are fighting with. At least get the country right.

One other thing Comrade. You see in Canada contrary to what you think, that boy with the pants pulled up to his

arm-pits and the delicately plucked eyebrows and manicured nails and who walks like he has a pretzel stuck up

his ass, does not, I repeat does not have the power or ability to tell Judges how to handle extradition requests.

We are not China. Our government and pretzel-ass are not one and the same with courts as your system is in 

China. So have your comrades think before they act. Have them think logically not with reactionary, subjective,

irrational anger. For a nation so rich in Taoism and other philosophies that taught you not to allow anger to

cloud your judgements, your Commie comrades clearly need some basic spiritual training. The problem with you

atheists is you turn into absurd robots. Do watch Star Trek and in particular the Borg. I do believe it captures

the essence of your weaknesses.

Let the Canadians go. Wait for the courts to decide. Appeal the case to the Supreme Court of Canada. By the time

it is then decided, Trump will be out of office. In the interim as its appealed, you can always use that fiasco to

portray your nation as victims and not the nasty predators you truly are

Listen to me Comrade, Trump stated like the idiot he is that he would use that Chinese clone who runs Hua Wei as

leverage. He opened that up to his own courts and our courts being able to determine if the extradition is for

political reasons not legal ones. Let the system of law we have work itself out.

Now before I say goodbye, please stop celling cell phones and electric equipment to spy on us. Just ask.

We are Canadians. We will tell you everything. Buy our maple syrup and oil, and we will tell you anything you need

to know about how to make a snowmobile. Also have your people drive more carefully and try have them come

out of Scarborough and Vancouver, and travel and talk to Canadians and live in the North.

Also stop over programming your children with math and after school, school. You might want to let them play

sports, engage in art, woodwork, nature hikes. You have a lot of fat soft children who can't handle walking let

alone lifting anything. Comrade, I have welcomed Chinese children into my home for years as they learn

English. Some do well, the ones teach how to throw snowballs and eat something other than boiled rice.

The others well my dear comrade, you have a generation of very soft, useless pampered Princes more concerned about

their hair and nails than working. Good luck on that.

Regards

Rue, the Political Shadow Man

 

I think my dear Comrade Rue was a typist before retiring back to his farmhouse.

A typist means a person who used to types documents with many letters in very short time even without knowing what and who the documents are meant for...

Edited December 16, 2018 by xul

[Rue]

2 minutes ago, xul said:

I think may dear Comrade Rue was a typist before retiring back to his farmhouse.

A typist means a person who used to types documents with many letters in very short time even without knowing what and who the documents are meant for...

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL You got me comrade. p.s. I spent 15 years welcoming home stay students, most from China. My mother was born in Shanghai. I would not be alive if a kind Chinese diplomat allowed thousands of Jews to escape Europe and come into China So I joke because I would hate a war  between China and the US and China I believe has a super tough President who sometimes over plays his hand. He needs to not react to Trump so quickly. China could be a powerful positive force that acts as an alternative balancing act to the other financial networks and Trump.  China-US trade is good for the whole world if its done fairly and peacefully. I hope it does and neither has to feel it has to swallow its enemy. Also Canada needs to trade with China. Let's be fair and avoid this nonsense. Trump is a meaningless side show. The people in the US government behind the scenes are who do the deal and they do it competently. They want a fair deal like China. It will happen.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Rue

[Machjo]

29 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

When has there ever been a policy rolled in over 70 years ?  And since this is a brand new idea, the idea that rollback would be politically difficult is just another hypothetical... 

I'd be even more in favour of unilateral global free trade within five years too, but I thought within seventy years could make it more palatable for more cautious voters. Yet the word 'within' wiuld allow a government to accelerate it if it wanted to.

[Michael Hardner]

37 minutes ago, Machjo said:

I'd be even more in favour of unilateral global free trade within five years too, but I thought within seventy years could make it more palatable for more cautious voters. Yet the word 'within' wiuld allow a government to accelerate it if it wanted to.

And a world government to support transition, right ?

[Machjo]

26 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

And a world government to support transition, right ?

We probably will need world government eventually, albeit in a highly decentralized world federation. I don't know how much you've dealt with Canadian immigration, but they know far less about our immigrants than you might realize. Most of their assessments are literally based on guess work and gut feelings. The same applied when I went abroad. Foreign governments could confirm so little about me that they pretty much had to just trust me.

People seem to have this impression that imigration departments have some kind of international database they can access to find out about you. They don't. Even the CRA has few ways to really know how much you've earned abroad. Marriage registrars likewise have few ways to know if a person is still married abroad.

For the most part, the CBSA, the CRA, and marriage registrars can do nothing more than to create pseudo-scientific policies and methods to give the public the impression that they know what they're doing and to create busy work for themselves in the bureaucracy.

That's one thing I liked about airport security in Hong Kong. While they scanned for narcotics, they didn't waste their time and ours with pseudo-scientific questioning methods. In short, they recognized their limits and didn't bother pretending otherwise. It's not that they were naive, just that they recognized that they had few ways to confirm the truth of our claims and so weren't going to waste our time and make themselves look like incompetent buffoons with guess work and gut feelings.

In Canada, the CBSA can sometimes come across like foolish buffoons in their irrational line of questioning at airports, and I mean really eye-rolling stuff. Let's face it: an organization comes across as far more competent and professional and knowledgeable when it just recognizes and acknowledges its limitations rather than pretend that it can do something through pseudo-scientific means that we can all see through. Worse yet, from a security viewpoint, isn't it safer for security agencies to just admit that they know little about someone than to pretend that they know everything about them? At least in jurisdictions like Hong Kong, they'll be more vigilant in their recognition of their limitations whereas in Canada, we just assume that immigration officials really know what they're doing.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Machjo

[Queenmandy85]

52 minutes ago, Machjo said:

I'd be even more in favour of unilateral global free trade within five years too, but I thought within seventy years could make it more palatable for more cautious voters. Yet the word 'within' wiuld allow a government to accelerate it if it wanted to.

Forgive me if I wonder if you understand what "unilateral" means. It means that we open our borders to, say, Brazil and remove all tariffs and taxes on Brazilian goods coming in, but Brazil is free to subsidize those products and maintain high tariffs and taxes on the products we wish to export to them. How is this good for us?

[Machjo]

12 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Forgive me if I wonder if you understand what "unilateral" means. It means that we open our borders to, say, Brazil and remove all tariffs and taxes on Brazilian goods coming in, but Brazil is free to subsidize those products and maintain high tariffs and taxes on the products we wish to export to them. How is this good for us?

Oh I understand, and where's the problem if the Brazilian government wants to force a Brazilian taxpayer to subsidize a product that a Brazilian company is selling to me. I'd be thankful to the Brazilian people for that gift since it would hurt them and benefit me.

[Queenmandy85]

But we would end up importing everything and exporting nothing. That is a lot of unemployment. How would your government survive? What would your balance of trade look like?

This is the reason we don't have referendums in this country. An MP is able to devote long hours studying these issues and she has acess to expert analysis. The average voter may have sufficient knowledge in one or two areas but not many, but believes they know more than they do. 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Queenmandy85

[Machjo]

10 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

But we would end up importing everything and exporting nothing. That is a lot of unemployment. How would your government survive?

That could never happen: any economist will tell you that. Even if every country subsidized everything and dumped it on Canada, they would get nothing in return. What would be the point? In the mean time, we'd just produce for ourselves. Sweet deal if you ask me.

 

Now the above is extreme, but it makes the point. More realistically, Brazil wouldn't be giving us anythng for free. It would still charge us for it, but just below the market price. So what does that mean? well, it means that it would be giving us somethng valuable for a few Canadian dollars. what would be in it for them? well, a few Canadian dollars? What will they want to do with those Canadian dollars? Flush them down the toilet? Of course not: they worked hard for those few Canadian dollars so they'd want to buy a Canadian prodcut with it. But since we would not be subsidizing anything, they'd have to exhcange those CAD for the Canadian product at market price. In other words, we'd be buying from them at below market price and they from us at market price. Who's getting the better deal there?  Since they couldn't buy as much from us, we couldn't export as much to them. So be it. We'd invest the rest of our effort in producing for ourselves. We really do need to teach economics in high school.

[Queenmandy85]

3 minutes ago, Machjo said:

We really do need to teach economics in high school.

No arguement there. 

[Machjo]

59 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

No arguement there. 

https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/economy-budget/342153-we-should-thank-china-for-its-foolish-steel-dumping

 

Economists understand that a country that dumps a product on another is actually hurting itself by investing so many resources on producing a product that it then sells at a loss and that a country that buys such a product benefits from the ability to buy a product more inexpensively than it could have produced it itself.

[Queenmandy85]

It is all about the jobs. Trade must be balanced to work.

An economist is a person who tells you why he has a job and you don't. (source unknown)

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Queenmandy85

[Machjo]

20 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

It is all about the jobs. Trade must be balanced to work.

An economist is a person who tells you why he has a job and you don't. (source unknown)

 

It natrually balances itself over time.

[Queenmandy85]

I'm a potter, not an economist so I will defer to your expertise in economics. My real concern is over the idea of a referendum. A policy such as this, with all its complexity, should be decided by Parliament and the Crown. Looking at past referendums, (conscription, Quebec separation, BC's so-called electoral reform), have come close to taking the country on the path of disaster, particularly the separation question. Few people have the resources to assess the consequences of these questions. Parliament does.

[xul]

21 hours ago, Rue said:

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL You got me comrade. p.s. I spent 15 years welcoming home stay students, most from China. My mother was born in Shanghai. I would not be alive if a kind Chinese diplomat allowed thousands of Jews to escape Europe and come into China So I joke because I would hate a war  between China and the US and China I believe has a super tough President who sometimes over plays his hand. He needs to not react to Trump so quickly. China could be a powerful positive force that acts as an alternative balancing act to the other financial networks and Trump.  China-US trade is good for the whole world if its done fairly and peacefully. I hope it does and neither has to feel it has to swallow its enemy. Also Canada needs to trade with China. Let's be fair and avoid this nonsense. Trump is a meaningless side show. The people in the US government behind the scenes are who do the deal and they do it competently. They want a fair deal like China. It will happen.

Thank God China hadn't any extradition treaty with Germany then. Otherwise Rue would turn himself in a Chinese court and request his extradition back to Nazi's concentration camp, because according Nazi's law Jews were supposed to be sent there and China had extradition treaty with Germany, and Rue was a believer of Rule of Law....LOL

Another example:

Somehow a war breaks out between US and China. After US asks NATO members' help, Canada government sends Canadian soldier Army Guy to the battle field and he meets Chinese soldier Xul there.

Army Guy: Xul, just let me shoot you, don't shoot me back.

Xul: Why shouldn't I shoot back if you fire upon me first?

Army Guy: Because this isn't a war between Canada and China but a war between US and China. I'm here just because Canada has a treaty with US. So if I shoot you, you just shoot the Americans. When they all die, the war is over and we Canadian soldiers will no longer need to shoot you.... 

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by xul

[Zeitgeist]

8 hours ago, Machjo said:

That could never happen: any economist will tell you that. Even if every country subsidized everything and dumped it on Canada, they would get nothing in return. What would be the point? In the mean time, we'd just produce for ourselves. Sweet deal if you ask me.

 

Now the above is extreme, but it makes the point. More realistically, Brazil wouldn't be giving us anythng for free. It would still charge us for it, but just below the market price. So what does that mean? well, it means that it would be giving us somethng valuable for a few Canadian dollars. what would be in it for them? well, a few Canadian dollars? What will they want to do with those Canadian dollars? Flush them down the toilet? Of course not: they worked hard for those few Canadian dollars so they'd want to buy a Canadian prodcut with it. But since we would not be subsidizing anything, they'd have to exhcange those CAD for the Canadian product at market price. In other words, we'd be buying from them at below market price and they from us at market price. Who's getting the better deal there?  Since they couldn't buy as much from us, we couldn't export as much to them. So be it. We'd invest the rest of our effort in producing for ourselves. We really do need to teach economics in high school.

I don’t see any advantage in buying other countries ‘ goods at low cost while those countries are permitted to raise the costs of Canadian goods, especially since many of the countries we’d be trading with would have weaker currencies.  It doesn’t make sense.  Why would foreigners buy our stuff?  Yes, we can focus on high value, higher tech goods, but even those to some extent can be had in low cost jurisdictions.  

Edited December 17, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[xul]

I'm not sure if Canadian political leaders have already fully understood the true meaning of this Trump phenomenon.

My understanding is:

The phenomenon means that the US can no longer afford to share its economic profit with its allies, which include Canada.

If anybody who thinks after 2 or 6 years when Trump is gone, everything will back to "normal", he is too naive. Just having a look at the chart of US federal debt, you need not to be an economist to understand the situation. If the trend isn't turned around, our dear Uncle Sam will meet the same bitter end as Soviet Union within a couple of decades...at best.

The phenomenon also shows once again how far men can go, or exactly how low humanity can sink when they are under desperate situation. Americans haven't got Hitler as their President like what German did in 1930s, just because they haven't been desperate enough, not because they are better than those Nazi supporters back in 1930s.

Canadian also need to understand that economically, Canada isn't an US ally but a competitor, which means if GM Oshawa factory lived, one more US GM factory would die.

Edited December 17, 2018 by xul

[xul]

After reading the US Federal Debt chart above, I suddenly have an off-topic thinking:

Nixon tried to solve the US financial problem by ending the Vietnamese War, he was investigated by FBI and resigned before impeachment;

Clinton tried to solve the problem by reducing US military spending, he was investigated by FBI and almost impeached;

Now Trump is trying to solve the problem, though it seems like he has no clue how to do it, and FBI is investigating him which may lead to impeachment...

And after each of the president who wanted to solve the problem and got an investigation or impeachment, you can see a big increase of debt on the chart.

It seems like that the deep state's investigation is only in favor of the presidents who try to do real thing to save America 

Has the deep state of US also been hacked by Russian hackers?