43% of Albertan's and 36% of the West

[Riverwind]

deleted

[Riverwind]

New poll from the adler on line show.

Those online polls can be manipulated by any experienced computer programmer who wants to prove a point. They mean absolutely nothing.

I wonder how much longer ottawa's song and dance man in alberta will be be able to deny reality.

I wonder how long it will take people to realize that this 'western seperatism' thing pure media manipulation by polictial opponents of the Liberals intended to 'scare' Ontario voters into voting Conservative. It is absolutely sick that people will promote the break up of the country to further their own political agenda. Mind you - we live in a world where Islamic radicals blowing people up for the same reasons.

As I said before, there is a huge similarity between the political and media leaders who manipulate the legimate anger of people by encouraging them to support separation and the Imams who encourage Muslims to fight America in the mosques. Both groups of people are ethically bankrupt because they advocate social violance and disruption.

There are many legimate avenues to advocate social and political change. People who are dissatisfied should look to these avenues.

[crazymf]

I wonder how long it will take people to realize that this 'western seperatism' thing pure media manipulation by polictial opponents of the Liberals intended to 'scare' Ontario voters into voting Conservative. It is absolutely sick that people will promote the break up of the country to further their own political agenda. Mind you - we live in a world where Islamic radicals blowing people up for the same reasons.

It also is a contingency plan if Quebec ever goes.

[Black Dog]

New poll from the adler on line show.

If you are a person living in Western Canada, can you see yourself voting for separating your province from Canada?

I would vote for separation of my province from Canada. 70.93 %

I would only vote for that if it included at least two western provinces. 6.90 %

I would vote for it if it included all of Western Canada. 15.72 %

I would never vote to separate from Canada. 6.45 %

I wonder how much longer ottawa's song and dance man in alberta will be be able to deny reality.

An online poll? How scientific!

I wonder what method the delusional seperatists will use next to demonstrate the support for their cause? Tea leaves? Chicken entrails?

I have always been vaguely amused by the irony of (English) Canadians who denounce (Quebec) separatists for being narrow-minded and self-centred yet feel high-minded defending Canadian sovereignty against the United States.

i think there's an argument to be made for Quebec independence. I don't agree with it, but it's there. Alberta? Now we're talking spoiled brat syndrome.

I wonder how long it will take people to realize that this 'western seperatism' thing pure media manipulation by polictial opponents of the Liberals intended to 'scare' Ontario voters into voting Conservative. It is absolutely sick that people will promote the break up of the country to further their own political agenda. Mind you - we live in a world where Islamic radicals blowing people up for the same reasons.

Mor ethan that, I think rumblings about separation are tailored towards a doemstic audience. "Western alienation" (of which the grumblings about soverignty are a byproduct) is largely designed to distract attention away from the homegrown crooks and liars who have been running Alberta for decades.

[Hawk]

I think Canada should either make everyone truly equal or cut the bullsh*t, you can't claim you are for equality and then give a province special status. Nor can you claim you are for equality and then give native americans an enormous government-funded advantage over the rest of the population. That goes for any ethnic minority that has government backing for any reason.

That also goes for provincial equality, it goes for all equality issues. Western alienation is not a simple problem, and it isn't going to go away if the east just ignores it. Do you honestly think we care if you think it is a 'legitimate' cause compared to Quebec? I know I don't.

This is not an equal society, it is a society of hypocritical socialist elites and I am sick of it. If I wanted a Communism I would live in China, so Canada can either move towards a better system or I will continue to support a free Alberta.

[Black Dog]

I think Canada should either make everyone truly equal or cut the bullsh*t, you can't claim you are for equality and then give a province special status. Nor can you claim you are for equality and then give native americans an enormous government-funded advantage over the rest of the population. That goes for any ethnic minority that has government backing for any reason.

That also goes for provincial equality, it goes for all equality issues. Western alienation is not a simple problem, and it isn't going to go away if the east just ignores it. Do you honestly think we care if you think it is a 'legitimate' cause compared to Quebec? I know I don't.

This is not an equal society, it is a society of hypocritical socialist elites and I am sick of it. If I wanted a Communism I would live in China, so Canada can either move towards a better system or I will continue to support a free Alberta.

Um...you don't want an equal society. You want a society where your particular segemnt of the population gets to take full advantage of the inequalitie sthat favour you, be it the oil that, through a total accident of geology, ended up under "our" dirt, or the colour of your skin.

[kimmy]

Um...you don't want an equal society. You want a society where your particular segemnt of the population gets to take full advantage of the inequalitie sthat favour you, be it the oil that, through a total accident of geology, ended up under "our" dirt, or the colour of your skin.

Geology's immutable. Geography's immutable. People, on the other hand, are tremendously adaptable.

Complaining that wealth generated by the resource sector is an inequality is about as sensible as complaining about the location of our auto-manufacturing industry or civil service jobs. Canadians have the fundamental right to move and work anywhere in this country.

-k

[moderateamericain]

its always fascanating as an american to see politcs in Canada. My question that i would like to ask on this subject, as i will not venture an opinion on a country i have never lived in or make assumptions on it (wish some of you would behave that way), is Canada's provinces that serious about seperation? Perhaps to make it very simple on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most dire, how would you rate the possibility that Alberta and Quebec will seperate from your confederation?

[crazymf]

Um...you don't want an equal society. You want a society where your particular segemnt of the population gets to take full advantage of the inequalitie sthat favour you, be it the oil that, through a total accident of geology, ended up under "our" dirt, or the colour of your skin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Geology's immutable. Geography's immutable. People, on the other hand, are tremendously adaptable.

Complaining that wealth generated by the resource sector is an inequality is about as sensible as complaining about the location of our auto-manufacturing industry or civil service jobs. Canadians have the fundamental right to move and work anywhere in this country.

-k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which is why I quipped at one point that theoretically 3 million people could move to Alberta from Ontario and vote any separation movement under the table.

[Riverwind]

Which is why I quipped at one point that theoretically 3 million people could move to Alberta from Ontario and vote any separation movement under the table.

The entire labour mobility issue really makes the entire 'Alberta birthright' argument kind of rediculous since anyone who moves to the province is automatically entitled to their share and anyone who leaves loses it.

[kimmy]

Which is why I quipped at one point that theoretically 3 million people could move to Alberta from Ontario and vote any separation movement under the table.

I don't think people transplant themselves and their families and move to new locations on a whim. They do it for personal reasons.

People move either because they want to go (ie, people pursuing prosperity in a new location) or because their situation has become difficult to tolerate (ie, Anglos deserting Quebec in droves.)

When people move to Alberta, it's because they want a better future for themselves and their kids than they feel they would have if they remained where they were. They suddenly have a personal stake in this province's continued prosperity. They'll suddenly have a great deal in common with those of us who are already here.

-k

[crazymf]

Yes. It was just a ponderance of the fact that so few people can make such a big stink and really still be insigificant.

ie: voting in a federal election

[August1991]

As I said before, there is a huge similarity between the political and media leaders who manipulate the legimate anger of people by encouraging them to support separation and the Imams who encourage Muslims to fight America in the mosques. Both groups of people are ethically bankrupt because they advocate social violance and disruption.

I don't see anyone in favour of "separation" (or, more accurately, a different Canadian federalism) advocating the use of suicide bombs.

I'll agree with you however that words cost little in discussions about separatism and Islamic radicals.

When people move to Alberta, it's because they want a better future for themselves and their kids than they feel they would have if they remained where they were.

They also get to buy stuff without paying provincial sales tax. And there's the problem. People don't go to Alberta because they want to, or because Alberta needs them, they go to get some of the accidental manna of geological history. (Don't believe me? How many fewer migrants to Alberta would there be if sales tax was, say, 8%)

It is costly when people move around and equalization payments were intended to limit such costs.

its always fascanating as an american to see politcs in Canada. My question that i would like to ask on this subject, as i will not venture an opinion on a country i have never lived in or make assumptions on it (wish some of you would behave that way), is Canada's provinces that serious about seperation? Perhaps to make it very simple on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most dire, how would you rate the possibility that Alberta and Quebec will seperate from your confederation?

Canadians (and others) regularly feel qualified to make pronouncements about American policies, I don't see why you can't tell us about Canada.

I think the words "separation" and "secession" are misleading. For the past few decades, Canada has been in the process of figuring out how to re-organize itself. Talk of western separation is part of that process.

[moderateamericain]

its always fascanating as an american to see politcs in Canada. My question that i would like to ask on this subject, as i will not venture an opinion on a country i have never lived in or make assumptions on it (wish some of you would behave that way), is Canada's provinces that serious about seperation? Perhaps to make it very simple on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most dire, how would you rate the possibility that Alberta and Quebec will seperate from your confederation?

Canadians (and others) regularly feel qualified to make pronouncements about American policies, I don't see why you can't tell us about Canada.

well some of what canadians say is true, however there is alot of things that are inaccurate, halfaccurate, or just plain false that i see on this website, and the thing that i see the most is the loudest accusers of everything that is wrong with America are the ones who have visited it least. This is not geared towards anyone specifically, or even to just this website. Ive done a bit of international travel, and the misconceptions out there are just as bad as some of the misconceptions that ive heard state side. I digress, but what im trying to say is i have not spent enough time in canada in order to make any accurate judgments, and the few news resources i have tend to, shall we say, have differences of opinion.

[Black Dog]

its always fascanating as an american to see politcs in Canada. My question that i would like to ask on this subject, as i will not venture an opinion on a country i have never lived in or make assumptions on it (wish some of you would behave that way), is Canada's provinces that serious about seperation? Perhaps to make it very simple on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most dire, how would you rate the possibility that Alberta and Quebec will seperate from your confederation?

Quebec is very serious and has come close twice (most notably in 1995). So I'd put thm at about a 8. In Alberta, though separation has never gained much traction. The only success the western separation movement has had was winning a single seat in the provincial legislature in the 1980's at the height of the NEP backlash. So I'll be generous and give Alberta a 2.

[I miss Reagan]

Quebec is very serious and has come close twice (most notably in 1995). So I'd put thm at about a 8. In Alberta, though separation has never gained much traction. The only success the western separation movement has had was winning a single seat in the provincial legislature in the 1980's at the height of the NEP backlash. So I'll be generous and give Alberta a 2.

This is a good point. I doubt Alberta separation will come by the election of a "Separation Party". It's more likely to come through evolution of an existing party which will bow to the will of Albertans. For instance Klein has warned of separation from time to time (although he claims not to be in favor of it). He underestimated support for separation at 25%. You get guys like Ted Morton (think fire wall) or even Stephen Harper who remain part of the PC establishment. We could see the Alberta Alliance gain more support thus pressuring the PC's to take a stronger stand against Ottawa and inch us toward being a Taiwan type of state.

[B. Max]

its always fascanating as an american to see politcs in Canada. My question that i would like to ask on this subject, as i will not venture an opinion on a country i have never lived in or make assumptions on it (wish some of you would behave that way), is Canada's provinces that serious about seperation? Perhaps to make it very simple on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most dire, how would you rate the possibility that Alberta and Quebec will seperate from your confederation?

Quebec is very serious and has come close twice (most notably in 1995). So I'd put thm at about a 8. In Alberta, though separation has never gained much traction. The only success the western separation movement has had was winning a single seat in the provincial legislature in the 1980's at the height of the NEP backlash. So I'll be generous and give Alberta a 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually alberta secession has grown by leeps and bounds, even though the federal boot licks have done everything to play it down. As they do on this board. Alberta secession is real and will happen. It is now pervading into the highest institutions of the province and waits like a sleeping giant for the right leader to step forward.

[kimmy]

When people move to Alberta, it's because they want a better future for themselves and their kids than they feel they would have if they remained where they were.

They also get to buy stuff without paying provincial sales tax. And there's the problem. People don't go to Alberta because they want to, or because Alberta needs them, they go to get some of the accidental manna of geological history. (Don't believe me? How many fewer migrants to Alberta would there be if sales tax was, say, 8%)

It is costly when people move around and equalization payments were intended to limit such costs.

No sales tax might be a modest incentive for people to move here, but opportunity and lucrative careers are the chief motivation. If luring capable workers to your province was as simple as abolishing the sales tax, I'm sure other provinces would be doing that in droves... unfortunately, people need to have someplace to work when they go to their new location, and this, more than other factors, is what makes Alberta the draw it has become.

Were equalization payments intended to keep people from changing locations to pursue opportunity? I don't believe so. I think the goal of equalization payments is to ensure all Canadians have the right to an education, healthcare, and social services. That's what they're called, isn't it? Canada Health and Social Transfers? That doesn't encompass money spent by the federal government to create opportunity in poorer parts of the country, but I'm not sure that falls under the heading of equalization, either. I'd consider it investment, more or less.

As for the cost of people moving about, that strikes me as a very odd analysis, coming from you at least.

Suppose there is a Newfoundland fisherman does work that contributes value of (just for the sake of argument) $30,000 a year to the Canadian economy, but there is a vacant job on an oil rig that he could fill that would contribute value of $60,000 a year to the Canadian econom. Then the cost to Canada is not incurred when he moves, it is incurred if he chooses not to move. We are in such a situation right now. We have underemployed workers in some parts of the country, and shortages of workers in other parts of the country, and one of the major factors limiting economic growth in Canada is that labor is not fluid enough to keep up with changing demands.

-kimmy

{I think the book I read had an example about a guy who worked at an ice-cream stand who also knew how to repair cars, but I think the general principle is the same.}

[August1991]

If luring capable workers to your province was as simple as abolishing the sales tax, I'm sure other provinces would be doing that in droves...

But then the province would have to curtail public service or increase its debt. The point is that provinces such as Alberta can provide such public services wit lower taxes. This induces people to move to Alberta, where in the absence of this advantage, they wouldn't.

But it is differences in the levels of expenditures relative to tax rates that are of primary concern for equalization. They give rise to two complementary effects, one of whose importance involves a value judgment.

The first effect is so-called fiscal inefficiency, that is, the fact that individuals,

firms, or economic activity more generally will have an incentive to locate in provinces that can provide given levels of public services at lower tax rates (or higher levels of public service at given tax rates).

Regina Boadway

Suppose there is a Newfoundland fisherman does work that contributes value of (just for the sake of argument) $30,000 a year to the Canadian economy, but there is a vacant job on an oil rig that he could fill that would contribute value of $60,000 a year to the Canadian econom.

Your argument makes perfect sense, but I would just add in the nuance that the fisherman doesn't see his value to the Canadian economy - he sees his after-tax income and different government services provided in the different provinces.

Alberta's wealth may well skew the fisherman's choice so that he leaves a job of greater value to the Canadian economy than the one he'll take up, simply because of Alberta's easier revenue abilities.

Equalization payments (and CHST too, I guess) are designed to correct for this problem.

[michao]

In my opinion, btw sorry if its off topic i just see a few things about seperatism and dont want to read the long but intelligent posts, so anyways should quebec have its referendum, then it will cause a split, and this is impossible to stop now, this split will result it canada becoming very unstable. This will lead to the economy being destroyed plus as a result of quebec, who is a mojor part to paying the debt off, splitting alberta will not want to pay off the debt with only ontario as those are the two richest provinces in canada and quebec is easily the third, hence alberta will split, and then it will be followed by a few other provinces, untill canada is seperated into tiny provinces, this is simply an opinion.

[Black Dog]

This is a good point. I doubt Alberta separation will come by the election of a "Separation Party". It's more likely to come through evolution of an existing party which will bow to the will of Albertans. For instance Klein has warned of separation from time to time (although he claims not to be in favor of it). He underestimated support for separation at 25%. You get guys like Ted Morton (think fire wall) or even Stephen Harper who remain part of the PC establishment. We could see the Alberta Alliance gain more support thus pressuring the PC's to take a stronger stand against Ottawa and inch us toward being a Taiwan type of state.

Possibly. But I also don't think there's enough real anger and alienation in the province. Most Albertans are doing quite well personally. Why would they roll the dice and risk their curent prosperity? The PCs embody the malaise that good times brings. The ALberta Alliance, too, is focused more on the PCs than on Ottawa: given the nature of party politics in this province, an Alliance win would just mean more of the same old same old.

The only thing I could see spurring Albertans into such a dramatic action would be a dramatic economic upheaval (such as the collapse of the natural reesorce sector or a federal money grab). But then such an upheaval would leave Alberta ill-suited to life on its own.

Here's really what it boils down to: for the people that matter (political and business leaders) the status quo is working great. Radical change is a great unknown and, unless it guaranteed a return for them in excess of what the current system offers, they won't do it.

Actually alberta secession has grown by leeps and bounds, even though the federal boot licks have done everything to play it down. As they do on this board. Alberta secession is real and will happen. It is now pervading into the highest institutions of the province and waits like a sleeping giant for the right leader to step forward.

What are you basing this on? All the evidence indicates seccession is a non issue in Alberta. Rathe rthan being downplayed, I'd say separation is being overplayed.

[B. Max]

This is a good point. I doubt Alberta separation will come by the election of a "Separation Party". It's more likely to come through evolution of an existing party which will bow to the will of Albertans. For instance Klein has warned of separation from time to time (although he claims not to be in favor of it). He underestimated support for separation at 25%. You get guys like Ted Morton (think fire wall) or even Stephen Harper who remain part of the PC establishment. We could see the Alberta Alliance gain more support thus pressuring the PC's to take a stronger stand against Ottawa and inch us toward being a Taiwan type of state.

Possibly. But I also don't think there's enough real anger and alienation in the province. Most Albertans are doing quite well personally. Why would they roll the dice and risk their curent prosperity? The PCs embody the malaise that good times brings. The ALberta Alliance, too, is focused more on the PCs than on Ottawa: given the nature of party politics in this province, an Alliance win would just mean more of the same old same old.

The only thing I could see spurring Albertans into such a dramatic action would be a dramatic economic upheaval (such as the collapse of the natural reesorce sector or a federal money grab). But then such an upheaval would leave Alberta ill-suited to life on its own.

Here's really what it boils down to: for the people that matter (political and business leaders) the status quo is working great. Radical change is a great unknown and, unless it guaranteed a return for them in excess of what the current system offers, they won't do it.

Actually alberta secession has grown by leeps and bounds, even though the federal boot licks have done everything to play it down. As they do on this board. Alberta secession is real and will happen. It is now pervading into the highest institutions of the province and waits like a sleeping giant for the right leader to step forward.

What are you basing this on? All the evidence indicates seccession is a non issue in Alberta. Rathe rthan being downplayed, I'd say separation is being overplayed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Around these parts it's called coppyright infringement. However i've seen the article on other forums and it's 43%. However we've been told, by i expect those who have been told, that it's only 7%. If you listen to much radio over the last two or three years the amount of converts stepping forward is amazing. Even rutherford for a long time now has been afraid to bring up the subject because when he does the whole show takes off in a secessionist direction. There are now converted secessionist in the PC party of the klien liberals.

[Melanie_]

New poll from the adler on line show.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Adler on line? Please. He is the biggest egomaniac on the radio, and only allows opinions that agree with him on his show. Of course the poll shows what he wants it to - his listeners ("citizens of Adler nation") are convinced that they should stroke his ego rather than think for themselves.

[theloniusfleabag]

Separation will only remain an issue as long as the oil money holds out. After that, Alberta will be back asking Ottawa for increased transfer payments to subsidize farmers, and the corporate head offices will follow wherever the money is, be it back to T.O. or elsewhere.

[B. Max]

New poll from the adler on line show.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Adler on line? Please. He is the biggest egomaniac on the radio, and only allows opinions that agree with him on his show. Of course the poll shows what he wants it to - his listeners ("citizens of Adler nation") are convinced that they should stroke his ego rather than think for themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The 43% is not adlers poll. It was done for the western standard. You are only shooting the messenger.

Adlers poll which was i believe around 79% reflects the views of his listeners. Adler is not what i would call pro secessionist so i would suggest those who voted yes arrived at their decission all on their own.