43% of Albertan's and 36% of the West

[speaker]

No boys in and girls there is only one solution for us to obtain our Rights as Free Men and Women in Canada, and that is for Alberta to begin the process of dismantling the Kleptocracy and starting all over again. Were the Free Men and Women limit the Rights and Duties of Government. And were our Individual Rights always trump the rights of those who serve us. Canada is in noway a Democracy it is Rule by Imperial Decree.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that before any westerner considers voting for independance we will have a real good look at ways to improve a system that has worked as well as any in history, admittedly not all that well, but we are all in the same boat as Alberta, we are so wealthy that we can have any system and there is enough to go around. We could have flat out Communism and still be content.

I'd suggest an anger management session to allow the brain to gain some perspective.

[fellowtraveller]

LOL

We were in Banff over the summer holidays and went to smoke a little doobie in the hotel room... in BC we would've just smoked it openly. But in Alberta we went so far as stuffing a towel under the door so no one in the hallway would smell it!

Didn't want those 'uber conservatives' to have a s**t fit and throw us BC hippies in jail! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, those delusions of persecution are what keeps drugknobs thinking they are something other than...well....knobs.

Stats for drug prosecutions (from statscan in 2004), per 100,000 of population:

Canadian average 304.1

Alberta 260.3

British Columbia 634.2

Looks like it's the BC cops who are throwing y'all in jail.

[kimmy]

LOL

We were in Banff over the summer holidays and went to smoke a little doobie in the hotel room... in BC we would've just smoked it openly. But in Alberta we went so far as stuffing a towel under the door so no one in the hallway would smell it!

Didn't want those 'uber conservatives' to have a s**t fit and throw us BC hippies in jail! 

Yep, those delusions of persecution are what keeps drugknobs thinking they are something other than...well....knobs.

Stats for drug prosecutions (from statscan in 2004), per 100,000 of population:

Canadian average 304.1

Alberta 260.3

British Columbia 634.2

Looks like it's the BC cops who are throwing y'all in jail.

Keep a lid on that, or BubberMilley will be moving here!

-k

[I miss Reagan]

I disagree with the notion that another NEP will take Alberta out of Canada, the trigger will be Quebec separation.

Consider how Canada will look post 2007, without Quebec: Ontario will have 40%+ of the total population. The Maritimes will still be essentially dependent states. If an essential element of Albertas issues with Central Canada is the tyranny of the majority, a post 2007 Canada will be worse, not better. What happens then? Why would Alberta, BC, Sask or the rest look forward to a new Canada that would feature complete domination by Ontario?

You're right Quebec separation will be the trigger. The sooner we can get Quebec out the door the sooner the West will be on it's way as well. People will see that Quebec does just fine on its own. For this reason a Conservative win would be bitter sweet for me. In many ways I'd love to see a Liberal Majority to further sow the seeds of discontent in the West so we'll be at the tipping point that much sooner. This union simply does not work. I'm not sure why people even want Alberta to remain a part of Canada. Is it for the bragging rights to Banff. Is it the oil wealth. It's not like if we separated we'd fall off the face of the earth. We could still be friends.... you could still come and visit our Grizzly Bears in Banff...

[Riverwind]

This union simply does not work.  I'm not sure why people even want Alberta to remain a part of Canada.

The union works as well as, if not better, than the US. The only difference is unlike the US, Canada has created a culture where people obsess about their regional identity and look for cop out solutions like seperation instead of actually trying to resolve the differences.

As others have noted: most of the royalties from Texas and Alaska oil go to the federal government yet you do not hear Texans and Alaskans whining about breaking up the US. I think it is because Americans are more mature that Canadians when it comes to this issue and realize that breaking up a country solves absolutely nothing.

[fellowtraveller]

The sooner we can get Quebec out the door the sooner the West will be on it's way as well.

You have misunderstood, your assumption that I see this as desirable is incorrect.

My choice would be that Canada remain intact as it is now.

But I have come to the realization that retaining the status quo is not mine to choose. Quebec will soon have the opportunity to choose, and if I were to bet - I'd bet they will leave.

The purpose of my post was to speculate on what happens after that, and to note that in those circumstances - a Canada composed of Ontario and eight much smaller provinces - that the status quo most emphatically will not be accepatble to any of the provinces excepting of course- Ontario.

[Black Dog]

You're right Quebec separation will be the trigger. The sooner we can get Quebec out the door the sooner the West will be on it's way as well. People will see that Quebec does just fine on its own. For this reason a Conservative win would be bitter sweet for me. In many ways I'd love to see a Liberal Majority to further sow the seeds of discontent in the West so we'll be at the tipping point that much sooner. This union simply does not work. I'm not sure why people even want Alberta to remain a part of Canada. Is it for the bragging rights to Banff. Is it the oil wealth. It's not like if we separated we'd fall off the face of the earth. We could still be friends.... you could still come and visit our Grizzly Bears in Banff...

Yup: another Liberal majority just might be the trick to pushing support for separation in Alberta past the elusive double digit mark.

[I miss Reagan]

This union simply does not work.  I'm not sure why people even want Alberta to remain a part of Canada.

The union works as well as, if not better, than the US. The only difference is unlike the US, Canada has created a culture where people obsess about their regional identity and look for cop out solutions like seperation instead of actually trying to resolve the differences.

As others have noted: most of the royalties from Texas and Alaska oil go to the federal government yet you do not hear Texans and Alaskans whining about breaking up the US. I think it is because Americans are more mature that Canadians when it comes to this issue and realize that breaking up a country solves absolutely nothing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you should ask yourself why, if the US system is inferior to ours, do we always compare ourselves to the US? I never brought up the US. Even Jack Layton uses the US in comparisons. Perhaps we're in denial. Nevertheless you ask a good question that I have thought about. I think it outlines the Eastern misconception about why we in Alberta are so discontented. You Easterners think we want to leave because we have resources, because we want to hoard the spoils for ourselves. It simply isn't true. For me there are many more reasons than the fact that the East wants to take our money. So back to the question of Alaska and Texas. Perhaps they get more out of the union than they give, not necessarily in monetary terms. I think you're right in that the culture is different. They've fought very hard for what they have and they believe strongly in their system. Not to mention they already separated from over taxing tyrants back in 1776. (That little event nixes your theory about 'breaking up a country solves nothing')

Let me ask you how staying together as a country solves anything? Our Federal Government really has no function but to tax and find pork to spend the money on. It's not like they are taking seriously the traditional roles of Federal governments such as sovereignty and defence. All the Feds do are tax us and impose laws on us that harm us. And as for staying together for trade pursposes I think it's obvious in the cases of softwood and mad cow B.C. and Alberta would've been much better without the undiplomatic help of Chretien and Martin.

[I miss Reagan]

The sooner we can get Quebec out the door the sooner the West will be on it's way as well.

You have misunderstood, your assumption that I see this as desirable is incorrect.

My choice would be that Canada remain intact as it is now.

But I have come to the realization that retaining the status quo is not mine to choose. Quebec will soon have the opportunity to choose, and if I were to bet - I'd bet they will leave.

The purpose of my post was to speculate on what happens after that, and to note that in those circumstances - a Canada composed of Ontario and eight much smaller provinces - that the status quo most emphatically will not be accepatble to any of the provinces excepting of course- Ontario.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And what I am saying is that in this hypothetic situation there is no way the West would remain in that situation which is why I'd like it. If Quebec goes Alberta goes soon after.

Sorry it was me who was not clear.

[Riverwind]

Perhaps they get more out of the union than they give, not necessarily in monetary terms.  I think you're right in that the culture is different.  They've fought very hard for what they have and they believe strongly in their system.

I think Canadians suffer from 'rich kid' syndrome. They have never had to fight for what they have can so they take it for granted. When someone complains it often has more to do with the bad attitude of the complainer than with the thing being complained about.

Not to mention they already separated from over taxing tyrants back in 1776.  (That little event nixes your theory about 'breaking up a country solves nothing')

Not really, the US colonies were 'colonies' and did not have a right to elect MPs that sat in the British Parliment.

Let me ask you how staying together as a country solves anything?  Our Federal Government really has no function but to tax and find pork to spend the money on.

More or less exactly what the US federal gov't does. I use the US as a comparison because it has a very similar federal structure and society yet does not seem to suffer from the same regional tensions. It is important to ask why there is a difference.

I actually agree that this country needs to go back to the model of the original confederation where the federal gov't only raised the taxes that were necessary for the programs that it was responsible for. I think that would address all of the tensions that exist today - no need to break the country up.

[Guest eureka]

Texas and Alaska do indeed get more out of the Union than Canadian Provinces. They get more because they have less power and are subordinate in government to the federal government. They get more because they need more.

America did not separate because of taxation (with or without representation). The States "separated" becuase its elite were ambitious and greedy - just loke elite Albertans and Quebeckers.

The American States were taxed far less than citizens in their Home country. The new taxes were for the defense of America which Britain had been carrying the whole shot for to that point.

As always, the merchant and landowning class of America wanted a free ride.

I am beginning to think I have been wrong about Canadian unity and the reason is Alberta's oil.

That oil resource greedily kept to itself is disupting the economy of the whole country. It is the source of inflationary pressures; of a too high Canadian dollar; of the declining Ontario manufacturing sector; of the increasing difficulty in selling some of the resources of other provinces.

Perhaps Canada should kick Alberta out now instead of subsidizing it with the jobs and livelihood of many in other provinces. Then, when Alberta falls to the "Dutch disease" and collapses economically, we can not take it back unless it is on territorial terms or simply laugh. when Alberta runs out of water - as it will - we should not divert streams from neighbouring sources - but tell ot to drink its oil and bathe in the tar.

One headache less for the rest of us and a salutary lesson for Quebec.

[I miss Reagan]

I think Canadians suffer from 'rich kid' syndrome. They have never had to fight for what they have can so they take it for granted. When someone complains it often has more to do with the bad attitude of the complainer than with the thing being complained about.

I agree with that. Canadians complain about everything and want everything for free.

I hate to admit it but knee-jerk separtists bother me. The kind that angrily call in to the radio shows immediately after any Liberal victory screaming "it's time for Alberta to separate!!" with out thinking it through. That's part of the complaining culture. (Although in the end I'd take support for separation anywhere it came from.)

Not really, the US colonies were 'colonies' and did not have a right to elect MPs that sat

Do you think if the US colonies were given elected MPs it would've made an impact on the Revolution? I don't think it would have. Besides we feel like we are in a similar situation. We aren't happy with our own democratic deficit in the Senate, PMO, Surpreme Court... etc. etc. I can't say we feel like we have much of a say in Ottawa. Of course when we question that the answer that always come back is "well vote Liberal then"

More or less exactly what the US federal gov't does. I use the US as a comparison because it has a very similar federal structure and society yet does not seem to suffer from the same regional tensions. It is important to ask why there is a difference.

The US spends a good share on pork but IMO they have a lot more to show for a lot less taxation. For instance a great interstate highway system, a solid national defence, the most powerful and technically advanced military in the world providing jobs for hundreds of thousands of people, the most advanced space program in the world, vast amount of humanitarian aid provided to the world, and a fantastic national park system. And despite the Canadian propeganda the US has the most technically advanced medical system in the world including medicaid for the poorest segment of the population. The US also manages to better protect the environment than Canada does. So where the hell does all of our money go? I don't think I need to repeat the litany of boondogles and scandles that our system of government promotes.

I actually agree that this country needs to go back to the model of the original confederation where the federal gov't only raised the taxes that were necessary for the programs that it was responsible for. I think that would address all of the tensions that exist today - no need to break the country up.

Wishful thinking. Our system doesn not promote meaningful reform. It promotes government which will only do what is required to maintain power.

Our the regions of this country have nothing in common except our love of hockey and the created hatred of the US. There is very little reason other than emotion for us to remain united. The sooner we realize how miserable this marriage is the better for all of us... except maybe the our colonial masters in Ontario.

[I miss Reagan]

The American States were taxed far less than citizens in their Home country. The new taxes were for the defense of America which Britain had been carrying the whole shot for to that point.

You must have learned that in the same class that taught you Canadians are taxed the same as Americans

America did not separate because of taxation (with or without representation). The States "separated" becuase its elite were ambitious and greedy - just loke elite Albertans and Quebeckers.

Looks like it payed off eh. America has done quite well since then...

As always, the merchant and landowning class of America wanted a free ride.

Really? That American Revolution was a pretty rough "free ride". Maybe you should read about how easy that "ride" was.

I am beginning to think I have been wrong about Canadian unity and the reason is Alberta's oil.

That oil resource greedily kept to itself is disupting the economy of the whole country. It is the source of inflationary pressures; of a too high Canadian dollar; of the declining Ontario manufacturing sector; of the increasing difficulty in selling some of the resources of other provinces.

Not much changes around here eh. That oil sure is evil isn't it.

Perhaps Canada should kick Alberta out now instead of subsidizing it with the jobs and livelihood of many in other provinces. Then, when Alberta falls to the "Dutch disease" and collapses economically, we can not take it back unless it is on territorial terms or simply laugh. when Alberta runs out of water - as it will - we should not divert streams from neighbouring sources - but tell ot to drink its oil and bathe in the tar.

Now you're kinda gettin the idea, but you don't need to be so vengeful... Come on give peace a chance.

[Riverwind]

Our the regions of this country have nothing in common except our love of hockey and the created hatred of the US.

There are many people that move around the country thoughout their lives and identify with the region they are living in at the time. I know many people from Alberta that are now living in BC - depending on the situtation they will claim to be an Albertan, a BCer or a Canadian. I may have lived most of my life in the west but I have spent years living in Ontario and in other countries.

In short, I think the regional identities in Canada are pretty weak and don't come anywhere near the sense of the Canadian nation or the sense of nation that exists other countries like the US or among French Quebequers. I am pretty sure that the seperatist sentiment in Alberta would disappear if the Conservatives win a majority. Just like I am pretty sure that Texas independence would likely be talked about if the democrats had control of the presidency, congress and the senate for 12 years.

[crazymf]

This union simply does not work.  I'm not sure why people even want Alberta to remain a part of Canada.

The union works as well as, if not better, than the US. The only difference is unlike the US, Canada has created a culture where people obsess about their regional identity and look for cop out solutions like seperation instead of actually trying to resolve the differences.

As others have noted: most of the royalties from Texas and Alaska oil go to the federal government yet you do not hear Texans and Alaskans whining about breaking up the US. I think it is because Americans are more mature that Canadians when it comes to this issue and realize that breaking up a country solves absolutely nothing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wakey wakey Sparhawk. Of course the west has a regional identity. That's because Ontario and Quebec are the self appointed center of the universe and merely can't hear us over the great expanse of Lake Superior. We do not exist.

Here's one example. Last election, Lloyd Robertson was doing a seat by seat analysis of the voting and every time he referred to anywhere west of Ontario, it was merely 'the west'. Not individual ridings, but 'the west'. You are the west and I am the west. No difference of opinions or locations or ridings. Just 'the west', the irrelevant west.

If we are that irrelevant and they don't want to include us on the federal elections, I say to hell with them, the west should boycott the next election. It won't make any difference anyway because they don't know we exist. Lets just leave quietly and not slam the door. They won't miss us.

[Guest eureka]

Once again, Sparhawk, we are in agreement. I, too, think we should go back to the original model of Confederation. That time was when the federal government was the controlling authority for Canada and had the important jurisdictions.

That was before the Supreme Court began to be overruled by the Lords of the Privy Council on matters of jurisdiction and rhe important things for all Canadians wre given to the vagaries of Provincial Legislatures.

That was when Canada was one nation.

[Guest eureka]

Good to see you back again, IMR. I have missed kicking you around. However, why the same old nonsense? One might have hoped you used the time to open up a few brain cells to fresh thinking.

The American colonists did pay far less taxes than their brethren in the UK. That is something that is not open to argument. The new, rather minor taxes that were imposed wre to pay for the protection of British troops stationed in America against the French threat.

The Revolution Was all about the self interest of the merchant and landowning class. Have you ever seen the list of the participants in the conventions to fashion a Constitution? There was only one "plebian" in the whole body: Stevens was, I think, the name.

Rough Ride for the Revolutionaries. Give me a break. They had the aid of the French, particularly, while Britain was facing a conrinent promising war. The ringleadres had nothing rough: they enriched themselves with the blood of their workers and the spoils of victory.

The Canadian tax load is no greater than the American. I have told you before and it cannot be denied, that Canadian taxes from all levels total about 36% of GDP while the American burden is 30%. For that differnce we get medicare while the Americans pay more than 6% for their precarious system.

The other expenditures that America makes are at the expense of all the other socia; programes that we have and they do not.

In other words, we pay for civilization: they pay for the barbarism of such ventures as Iraq.

[I miss Reagan]

Good to see you back again, IMR. I have missed kicking you around. However, why the same old nonsense? One might have hoped you used the time to open up a few brain cells to fresh thinking.

Glad you missed me old pal. Remember I'm conservative, I've been working. Somebody's gotta make the money to support you socialists. Careful though, you guys keep up that tough talk and us money makers just might leave the table and you'll be stuck with the bill

In short, I think the regional identities in Canada are pretty weak and don't come anywhere near the sense of the Canadian nation or the sense of nation that exists other countries like the US or among French Quebequers.

I don't know Sparhawk, that's seems to be the case in Ontario but you tell that to people in Newfoundland. I think Ontario is in this bubble where they see everyone in Canada loving them and so greatful to be united with them. I think you overestimate the strength of Canadian patriotism. Like we've discussed, there is much depth to it. BTW did you watch the behavior of our Canadian fans booing the US kids as the played Russia?

Just like I am pretty sure that Texas independence would likely be talked about if the democrats had control of the presidency, congress and the senate for 12 years.

I don't think you are right but your question points out the superiority of the US system to ours. It's much more balanced. You don't see one party or even worse one leader for 12 years. Once a party gets too arrogant and too much control, like the Repubs have now, there is always a shift to balance things out like we'll see in the next mid-term elections. The states also have more autonomy on divisive issues. The individual states can decide on the death penalty, gun laws, gay marriage. They aren't dictated to, to the same degree we are as provinces.

[fellowtraveller]

I am beginning to think I have been wrong about Canadian unity and the reason is Alberta's oil.

That oil resource greedily kept to itself is disupting the economy of the whole country. It is the source of inflationary pressures; of a too high Canadian dollar; of the declining Ontario manufacturing sector; of the increasing difficulty in selling some of the resources of other provinces.

Is this satire or simply complete jingoistic crap?

Two referendums were held when Albertas oil was not an issue, and prices were low. Blame Alberta

Alberta earned $13 billion in resource revenue in 2004 , and gave $11 billion of it gratis to Canada. Blame Alberta.

The US dollar plummets in relation to every major currency. Blame Alberta.

World oil prices soar, helping to make Ontario industry uncompetitive. Blame Alberta.

Nobody wants to buy Ontario made Buicks. Blame Alberta.

[Black Dog]

crazymf: like others you seem to have a problem with consistency:

Here's one example. Last election, Lloyd Robertson was doing a seat by seat analysis of the voting and every time he referred to anywhere west of Ontario, it was merely 'the west'. Not individual ridings, but 'the west'. You are the west and I am the west. No difference of opinions or locations or ridings. Just 'the west', the irrelevant west.

If we are that irrelevant and they don't want to include us on the federal elections, I say to hell with them, the west should boycott the next election. It won't make any difference anyway because they don't know we exist. Lets just leave quietly and not slam the door. They won't miss us.

If you don't like "them" generalizing about this fictional entity known as "the west", maybe you should stop promoting the idea that "the west" exists as a homogenous political construct.

[Wilber]

Once again, Sparhawk, we are in agreement. I, too, think we should go back to the original model of Confederation. That time was when the federal government was the controlling authority for Canada and had the important jurisdictions.

That was before the Supreme Court began to be overruled by the Lords of the Privy Council on matters of jurisdiction and rhe important things for all Canadians wre given to the vagaries of Provincial Legislatures.

That was when Canada was one nation.

That's the problem, you want to turn the clock back 150 years and keep a country that's run from Ontario with the West as an economic colony. There are now regions ne Provinces that have economy's and populations capable of standing alone as countries and they want that new reality reflected in their federal government. This westerner doesn't want out. I want in.

I'm not an Albertan but about their oil. When has eastern Canada ever sold anything to any other province at less than the world price. Albertans contribute far more per capita in equalization than any other province yet get nothing but garbage for their trouble.

[Guest eureka]

I think, Wilber, that what you should want is some time to think about what you are saying. When you live in a country that is already so Balkanized that it is almost ungovernable, only a complate fool could not want to get back to the idea of nationhood.

That is not going back one hundred and fifty years. It is preservation of the nation in the face of ambitious provincialistsi

[Wilber]

I think, Wilber, that what you should want is some time to think about what you are saying. When you live in a country that is already so Balkanized that it is almost ungovernable, only a complate fool could not want to get back to the idea of nationhood.

That is not going back one hundred and fifty years. It is preservation of the nation in the face of ambitious provincialistsi

I've thought a lot about what I'm saying and I am convinced that if you have your way this country has no future. You cannot continue to deny people access to their fair say in their own government when they have other options. You wish to maintain the status quo which means power centralized in Ontario with the Ontario Quebec relationship the primary focus of the Federal Government and no real say from the West. That cannot last. This country is not the country of Confederation.

[Guest eureka]

If you had thought a lot about this, you would understand what utter rubbish your comments are.

[Wilber]

Nice comeback Eureka, now that is well thought out.