GM packing its bags in Oshawa

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

 Consumers are loyal to domestic producers and will reward companies, foreign or otherwise, that invest in the country.  That has been the story for Japanese auto makers in Canada for sure.

 

The best selling vehicle in Canada is the Ford F-150 pickup truck....final assembly is in the United States (Detroit / Kansas City). 

Ford has also closed plants in Canada (e.g. St. Thomas).

[Zeitgeist]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

What are you talking about ?  I have been retired for years...after working several of them at a Tier 3 QS9000 automotive parts plant.  

I've seen it all...including union excesses...and they got exactly what they deserved.

Union excesses are real.  Read The Reckoning, which tells the story of union excesses and lousy auto production, as well as the rise of Japanese auto production.  Very relevant to todays discussion, except that the Japanese always understood the value of high wages.  Their workers became the best paid.  They have excellent continuous improvement in Japanese facilities that incorporates worker feedback.  Germany does something similar because their unions play a key management role.  It's much more adversarial in North America, which is why the non-unionized Japanese factories have done well here.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Whatever.  Go and exploit your own citizens if it means so much to you. 

 

Agreed...but only if you stop depending on exploiting "my own" citizens too.

Still waiting for that Canadian owned car make to build a big juicy plant in the USA.

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The best selling vehicle in Canada is the Ford F-150 pickup truck....final assembly is in the United States (Detroit / Kansas City). 

Ford has also closed plants in Canada (e.g. St. Thomas).

Yes, but Ford has also maintained plants in Canada.  We've learned to live with a reasonable amount of plant closures, though it's always painful.  This GM plan is bad.  If we accept it in both Canada and the US, a precedent is being set that could really spell the end of the middle class, everything that Trump proclaimed he was fighting.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Union excesses are real.  Read The Reckoning, which tells the story of union excesses and lousy auto production, as well as the rise of Japanese auto production.  Very relevant to todays discussion, except that the Japanese always understood the value of high wages.  Their workers became the best paid.  They have excellent continuous improvement in Japanese facilities that incorporates worker feedback.  Germany does something similar because their unions play a key management role.  It's much more adversarial in North America, which is why the non-unionized Japanese factories have done well here.

 

No thanks...I have already lived through all that in real time.   Even helped with technical transfer to China for automotive flex tapes and laminated materials.

Canada ain't Japan and it ain't Germany either.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes, but Ford has also maintained plants in Canada.  We've learned to live with a reasonable amount of plant closures, though it's always painful.  This GM plan is bad.  If we accept it in both Canada and the US, a precedent is being set that could really spell the end of the middle class, everything that Trump proclaimed he was fighting.

 

Nonsense....plants will continue to close without regard to the larger issue of the "middle class".   

Employee counts will continue to dwindle because of automation.

Living in the past will not work.

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed...but only if you stop depending on exploiting "my own" citizens too.

Still waiting for that Canadian owned car make to build a big juicy plant in the USA.

The Canadian auto industry was combined with the US auto industry long ago.  We produce cars and we buy them, just as Americans produce cars and buy them, whether the company is headquartered in Japan, the US, Germany...It doesn't matter anymore.  These are publicly traded companies, but when they make their profits off of the public, they need to respect the interests of the public in those markets where they sell.  Auto sales were up in Canada 13%.  GM is profitable in both countries and has received big life support from our governments when times were tough.  These job cuts are unacceptable and must be stopped.  If government is too useless to tackle the problem, it'll have to be consumers.  But I believe that government has a role to play in protecting and enhancing society.  Otherwise, why do we vote and pay taxes? 

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nonsense....plants will continue to close without regard to the larger issue of the "middle class".   

Employee counts will continue to dwindle because of automation.

Living in the past will not work.

No, this is a choice.  Don't buy the automation argument.  Automation without employment is a social ill, unless the profit from the sales go to giving people an income.  Otherwise we will have a much lower standard of living for the vast majority of people.  This is a public policy decision.

Also, the truth comes out about you:  You benefitted from working in the auto industry.  It was alright for you...

Edited November 29, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The Canadian auto industry was combined with the US auto industry long ago.  We produce cars and we buy them, just as Americans produce cars and buy them, whether the company is headquartered in Japan, the US, Germany...It doesn't matter anymore.  These are publicly traded companies, but when they make their profits off of the public, they need to respect the interests of the public in those markets where they sell.  Auto sales were up in Canada 13%.  GM is profitable in both countries and has received big life support from our governments when times were tough.  These job cuts are unacceptable and must be stopped.  If government is too useless to tackle the problem, it'll have to be consumers.  But I believe that government has a role to play in protecting and enhancing society.  Otherwise, why do we vote and pay taxes? 

 

This is the same lame argument some Canadians made when EMD LOndon was shut down....Caterpillar profits were way up !

News Flash:   Corporate profits do not belong to the public or employees unless they are part of a sharing/equity arrangement.

GM owes Ontario nothing beyond the 2009 loan agreements...long since satisfied.

Consumers won't do jack....Heinz ketchup is still selling well in Canada.

Edited November 29, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

No, this is a choice.  Don't buy the automation argument.  Automation without employment is a social ill, unless the profit from the sales go to giving people an income.  Otherwise we will have a much lower standard of living for the vast majority of people.  This is a public policy decision.

 

Then it has nothing to do with this very specific plant closing thread or reality.    Go read another book about what could be instead of what is.

Quote

Also, the truth comes out about you:  You benefitted from working in the auto industry.  It was alright for you...

 

Sure....but I was not delusional about what the campany "owed me" or the middle class.   

Didn't cry tears about layoffs and plant closures either....moved on to better things (no union too).

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada isn't Cuba (yet)...the Oshawa plant is owned by GM....not Canada's "middle class".

 

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Then it has nothing to do with this very specific plant closing thread or reality.    Go read another book about what could be instead of what is.

 

Sure....but I was not delusional about what the campany "owed me" or the middle class.   

Didn't cry tears about layoffs and plant closures either....moved on to better things (no union too).

I don’t accept your resignation and never will. Your attitude that corporations have zero responsibility and that the free market abuses should be allowed or even fueled is the heart of the problem that government needs to fix.  Companies trying to wring another percent in annual profits out of the workforce don’t give a shit. You’ll find out just how little they care without intervention.  

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t accept your resignation and never will. Your attitude that corporations have zero responsibility and that the free market abuses should be allowed or even fueled is the heart of the problem that government needs to fix.  Companies trying to wring another percent in annual profits out of the workforce don’t give a shit. You’ll find out just how little they care without intervention.  

 

Correct...they don't "give a shit"...nor are they required to. 

Local, provincial, and federal government is more than happy to reap the benefits of corporation's "abusive" ways, especially foreign owned ones.

Your pollyanna ideas are not relevant to existing or future economic conditions.  

Even the union workers will aggressively bump their lower seniority brothers and sisters out into the cold street.

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Correct...they don't "give a shit"...nor are they required to. 

Local, provincial, and federal government is more than happy to reap the benefits of corporation's "abusive" ways, especially foreign owned ones.

Your pollyanna ideas are not relevant to existing or future economic conditions.  

Even the union workers will aggressively bump their lower seniority brothers and sisters out into the cold street.

Read Charles Dickens.  I think you could relate to some of the characters.  That’s the tenor of your argument.  I hope that your bitterness doesn’t detract from the comforts your employment provided.  We don’t need to suffer like that anymore.  It’s a choice we make as a society. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Read Charles Dickens.  I think you could relate to some of the characters.  That’s the tenor of your argument.  I hope that your bitterness doesn’t detract from the comforts your employment provided.  We don’t need to suffer like that anymore.  It’s a choice we make as a society. 

 

It's not my argument...it is economic and employment reality.  

Far from being bitter, I am very thankful for a very comfortable retirement derived from several military and engineering gigs...with many companies.

Only a fool would think they are guaranteed employment for life as an autoworker.    That's just stupid !

[cannuck]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Still waiting for that Canadian owned car make to build a big juicy plant in the USA.

Well, the plants are not in USA - the full vehicle manufacturing plants.  Magna International is not only the largest independent outsource for automobile production (with dozens of plants in the USA) but builds complete cars sold as BMW, Land Rover and a few others.  Those Magna plants are in Europe.

[Wilber]

Jaguar's new I Pace EV is built by Magna Steyr  in Austria.

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It's not my argument...it is economic and employment reality.  

Far from being bitter, I am very thankful for a very comfortable retirement derived from several military and engineering gigs...with many companies.

Only a fool would think they are guaranteed employment for life as an autoworker.    That's just stupid !

So you did work for/in the military?  That’s the height of taxpayer-subsidized, guaranteed employment.  Hope you appreciated the job security.  Most countries do this in different ways.  The US economy is very connected to military contracts.  

[Zeitgeist]

55 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Jaguar's new I Pace EV is built by Magna Steyr  in Austria.

Magna is well positioned to run full scale auto production.  I wonder if they avoid this because of the optics as a parts supply for other auto makers.  Yet many auto makers have joint operations.  Oshawa could be retooled.  

[bush_cheney2004]

15 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

So you did work for/in the military?  That’s the height of taxpayer-subsidized, guaranteed employment.  Hope you appreciated the job security.  Most countries do this in different ways.  The US economy is very connected to military contracts.  

 

Wrong again...there is no job security in the U.S. military either.

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Wrong again...there is no job security in the U.S. military either.

It’s a matter of degrees. Some jobs are more secure than others.  

[bush_cheney2004]

13 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Magna is well positioned to run full scale auto production.  I wonder if they avoid this because of the optics as a parts supply for other auto makers.  Yet many auto makers have joint operations.  Oshawa could be retooled.  

 

Great....when can I expect a Magna owned auto assembly plant to be built in the USA....say in Tennessee ?

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Great....when can I expect a Magna owned auto assembly plant to be built in the USA....say in Tennessee ?

 

 

They’re already in the US, employing Americans.  I wouldn’t focus on assembly, which is often the low tech end of production.  The big engineering is in the engines and transmissions, fuel and emissions systems...

Edited November 29, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s a matter of degrees. Some jobs are more secure than others.  

 

Please tell the GM auto workers in Oshawa about all the degrees and things.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

They’re already in the US, employing Americans.  

 

...and are they never allowed to close a U.S. plant and idle workers because it would be so damaging to the "middle class" ?