Jerusalem is Israel's Capital...

[Omni]

11 minutes ago, Argus said:

Seriously? It has everything to do with a military which does its job - to protect its civilians, vs a terrorist force which actually wants more civilian casualties. The best example of how little care Arabs have about casualties is Islamic State, which crowed that it will win because the Jews loved life but Muslims love death.

Palestinians=ISIS? Complete obfuscation. 

 

15 minutes ago, Argus said:

The clearest example yet of your complete lack of knowledge about all things military. There is simply no chance whatever of fighting a war in a built-up civilian area without civilian casualties. You want to know what those casualties look like if one side doesn't give a damn about civilian casualties? Look to Syria. Compare how the IDF fought in Gaza to how the Syrian army fought in Aleppo. A few hundred civilians were killed in Gaza vs tens of thousands in Aleppo and hundreds of thousands in Syria.

I imagine I have spent a lot more time in war zones than you have so I know a little bit about the military. Also, a few hundred civilians killed in Gaza? A few thousand, and as I already pointed out, about 15 times more than Israelis.

 

21 minutes ago, Argus said:

They will NEVER have it and everyone over there except perhaps them knows this. There never was the slightest chance of them having it once the Israelis took it back.

That blinkered thinking will ensure the conflict lingers. They have divided the country, they could divide the city.   

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Omni said:

Palestinians=ISIS? Complete obfuscation. 

Hamas is not much difference. Palestinians celebrate when their sons die in suicide attacks against Israelis. They put posters up on the walls and dance and sing, and the Palestinian Authority pays their families a pension because their son died 'a hero'.

1 hour ago, Omni said:

I imagine I have spent a lot more time in war zones than you have so I know a little bit about the military. Also, a few hundred civilians killed in Gaza? A few thousand, and as I already pointed out, about 15 times more than Israelis.

You've never spent a day in a war zone or you'd acknowledge that there is no way to fight a war with pinpoint accuracy. That's why there are always friendly fire incidents and why bombs and artillery goes astray. Doesn't take much straying in a city to cause casualties.

According to the UN almost all the people killed in Gaza were Hamas fighters, with only a few hundred civilians dead. Compare that to going on half a million dead in Syria, casualties you have never expressed the slightest interest, care or concern about. Nor have any of the other anti-Jewish types here.

1 hour ago, Omni said:

That blinkered thinking will ensure the conflict lingers. They have divided the country, they could divide the city.   

The Jews are not about to give Jerusalem back to Arabs. Recall that when the Jordanians seized it they expelled all the Jews. Now that the Jews are back they're not leaving. Why should they?

 

[Omni]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

Hamas is not much difference.

Zionists are not much different.

 

2 hours ago, Argus said:

You've never spent a day in a war

How about 2 years in Afghanistan. Or don't you consider that a war zone?

 

2 hours ago, Argus said:

The Jews are not about to give Jerusalem back to Arabs

They don't have to "give it back" they simply need to share it.

[herples]

It makes a hard situation more difficult by basically saying they have no intention of hearing the other side in negotiations. 

[Omni]

22 minutes ago, herples said:

It makes a hard situation more difficult by basically saying they have no intention of hearing the other side in negotiations. 

and if my understanding of the word is at all accurate then negotiation requires at least more than one side. 

[Altai]

Two terrorists with 60 kg of explosives caught alive by Turkish security forces while they are trying to blow themselves up during the meeting of The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation which announced the Eastern Jarusalem as the capital of Palestine.


Try again. 

[Argus]

14 hours ago, Omni said:

Zionists are not much different.

Seriously? Zionists set up a democratic state with a free and independent media and court system. And guess what? Muslims are allowed to live there and vote there and run for office there. Did they expel all the Muslims the way the Muslim states expelled all the Jews? Nope.  What has Hamas set up in Gaza? A corrupt police state that executes those 'suspected' of cooperating with Israel(without trial) and routinely tortures prisoners. Radio in Gaza broadcasts nothing but religious extremism, anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish propaganda. Even its children's broadcasts glorify suicide bombers. 

Quote

How about 2 years in Afghanistan. Or don't you consider that a war zone?

Working at the Tim Hortons, were you? Your profound ignorance of military operations in built-up areas reveals you were never in the military. About 150,000  civilians died during the fighting as  the allies fought their way north through Italy. Were they the victims of Allied 'terrorists'?

Quote

They don't have to "give it back" they simply need to share it.

The way Jordan shared it?

Edited December 15, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

13 hours ago, herples said:

It makes a hard situation more difficult by basically saying they have no intention of hearing the other side in negotiations. 

As long as the Palestinians persist in demands that will not be met there is little point in negotiations anyway.

[Omni]

12 minutes ago, Argus said:

Did they expel all the Muslims the way the Muslim states expelled all the Jews? Nope

Nope. There are ~200,000 Jews living (illegally) in East Jerusalem.

 

13 minutes ago, Argus said:

Working at the Tim Hortons, were you?

 Ah no, it was about 300 NM south of me in Kandahar. I did visit it once though.

 

15 minutes ago, Argus said:

The way Jordan shared it?

Do you always keep looking in the rear view mirror?

[Rue]

17 hours ago, Omni said:

Zionists are not much different.

 

How about 2 years in Afghanistan.

First comparing me to Hamas is dishonest and loathsome. Your attempting to equate Zionists with Hamas is typical though and what is ironic is you do so in an effort to champion Hamas by trying to argue your terrorists are better. You are pathetic in that sense. The Zionist is no different than Hamas terrorism argument speaks for itself and where you are at on this thread.

 

Next your posing as an expert on what the IDF did in Gaza and the war tactics Hamas engaged in by claiming you were in Afghanistan shows what a fool you are.

 

Go on explain to Argus how the Taliban engage in the same tactics as Hamas which is of course false.

 

Then explain your role in fighting the Taliban Mr. Counter Terrorist.

 

What a joke. What a bloody joke.

 

[Rue]

2 hours ago, Omni said:

Nope. There are ~200,000 Jews living (illegally) in East Jerusalem.

 

 

Oh do provide the source for that. Here's a hint you once again are full of shit.

[Omni]

18 minutes ago, Rue said:

Oh do provide the source for that. Here's a hint you once again are full of shit.

Go do a little research. ~86% of East Jerusalem is controlled by Israeli authorities and Jewish settlers. 

[Rue]

Not thatit matters because the anti Israel pissantes on this forum make things up as they go along but:

East Jerusalem like West Jerusalem is Jerusalem. The East-West designation used by Omni  is a modern definition,.

In fact it was only during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War,  when Jerusalem was contested between  the Arab League of Nations and the Jews of Palestine who the Arab League of Nations unilaterally declared war on that when the Arab League armies gave up and retreated, Jordan then secretly negotiated a division of the city, with the eastern sector coming under Jordanian rule.

This arrangement was then put in writing in what is called the March 1949, Rhodes Agreement.

Exactly one week after that agreement which I can assure you Omni has no clue of,  the then Prime Minister of Israel David Ben Gurion  stated that it was the official Israeli position that Jewish Jerusalem was an inseparable part of the state of Israel.

That was then confirmed  in the Knesset in January 1950 and then the Jordanian Parliament in April 1950.^[

Israel then captured East Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan in the 6 day war in June of 1967. In fact on June 27, 1967 Israel ANNEXED East Jerusalem but not the West Bank.

East Jerusalem was never prior to Jordanian occupation part of any sovereign country and Jordan never annexed it or claimed it as part of Jordan.

The UN feels Israel could not annex East Jordan. This was not based on international law,  but a UN resolution, a motion expressing a political opinion by the majority of the UN's nations that Israel should not be in East Jerusalem. It was never based on any legal precedent because there is none. There is no international law that says a country can not annex land never owned by another nation.

The PLO declared ALL of Jerusalem not just East Jerusalem as belong to it in 1988. This is the same Arafat who claimed Israel could not exist as a Jewish state and this is still the position of the PA today. They do not just claim all of Jerusalem as their capital but all pre 1967 Israel as part of its alleged kingdom of Palestine which is also said to include Jordan.

The West of Jerusalem was always predominantly Jewish and the East predominantly Muslim (Arab) but there was never any line drawn. The borders of Israel that came about before 1967 were in fact de facto. They did not come about from formal recognition. The Arab League of Nations to this day does not acknowledge them. These pre 1967 lines were simply the lines where the Arab League armies ran away from and the Jews of Palestine stopped in 1949. They were never formally defined. Likewise that supposed East and West line that came about from 1949 to 1967 was simply a non legal informal treaty between Jordan and Israel. Jordan never agreed and still does not recognize Israel as a Jewish state let alone a state. This is why although it has a peace treaty with Israel it does not exchange an ambassador. It can not because it does not define Israel as a state. In fact when its King has visited he has never acknowledged Israel as a state he has done so with no such reference.

In fact ibn November 1967, the UN Resolution 242  which called for Israel to withdraw "from territories occupied past the 1967 borders was to be done in exchange for peace treaties with the Arab League of Nations, Jordan, Egypt and Syria. Egypt took back Sinai in a peace treaty. Jordan did not want to take back the West Bank or East Jerusalem in a peace treaty because Arafat tried to kill King Hussein in the black sabbath uprising so he was expelled to Tunisia by Jordan and Jordan washed its hands of East Jerusalem andthe West Bank forcing Israel to remain to prevent the PLO and other terror cells from using it to launch continuing attacks on Israel. Nothing has changed since then.

In fact in the original partition plan Israel agreed to in 1947  Jerusalem was supposed to to be an international city. The Arab League of Nations not Israel rejected this. Israel agreed to it, The Arab League rejected it. Yitzhak Rabin, Echud Barak and Olmert all offered East Jerusalem back to the PA in return for a peace treaty. Arafat declared to the world he would never accept a Jewish state under any circumstance and would never share Jerusalem with Jews.

That position remains the position of Hamas and the PA.

Once Arafat told the world the US and Israel should have known he bargained in bad faith and was simply stalling for time and would never recognize a Jewish state, Israel then decided there was no point talking about Jerusalem or the West Bank settlements as long as the PA and Hamas did not denounce terrorism an disarm and recognize the right of Israel to live as a Jewish state.

This is exactly the position Britain took with the IRA but the IRA unlike Hamas and the PA did disarm, and renounced taking back Northern Ireland as preconditions to then engaging in peace talks. The PA and Hamas will not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rue]

8 minutes ago, Omni said:

Go do a little research. ~86% of East Jerusalem is controlled by Israeli authorities and Jewish settlers. 

Put the  vasoline away Omni. You are caught red handed spewing bullshit. Provide your source for the 200,000 Jews in East Jerusalem that you determined are illegal. Quite the law, quote the law that says these Jews are "illegal"and provide the source its 200,000.

I am calling you out as having no source and fabricating.

[Omni]

3 minutes ago, Rue said:

Put the  vasoline away Omni. You are caught red handed spewing bullshit. Provide your source for the 200,000 Jews in East Jerusalem that you determined are illegal. Quite the law, quote the law that says these Jews are "illegal"and provide the source its 200,000.

I am calling you out as having no source and fabricating.

Using a series of measures that involve massive land grabs, rapid construction of Jewish settlements, and the imposition of a repressive system on Palestinians designed to stifle their daily lives and push them out of the city, the Israeli state has managed to change the demographic makeup of occupied East Jerusalem and entrench their control over it.

Today, 86 percent of East Jerusalem is under direct control of the Israeli authorities and Jewish settlers. Around 200,000 settlers live in settlements that have been mostly built either entirely or partially on private Palestinian property.

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/israel-judaising-east-jerusalem-171206102051198.html

[Rue]

13 minutes ago, Omni said:

Using a series of measures that involve massive land grabs, rapid construction of Jewish settlements, and the imposition of a repressive system on Palestinians designed to stifle their daily lives and push them out of the city, the Israeli state has managed to change the demographic makeup of occupied East Jerusalem and entrench their control over it.

Today, 86 percent of East Jerusalem is under direct control of the Israeli authorities and Jewish settlers. Around 200,000 settlers live in settlements that have been mostly built either entirely or partially on private Palestinian property.

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/israel-judaising-east-jerusalem-171206102051198.html

No that aint gonna cut it. You posing as an expert about Jerusalem by quoting Al Jazeera shows how full of crap you are.

In fact the 200,00 figure does not come from them. They simply repeat it,  like below,  "Should an independent Palestinian state ever be established on the West Bank, the 250,000-plus Jewish settlers scattered around it would have to be moved - as well as the more than 200,000 Israelis who now live in and around Arab east Jerusalem."  (The Sunday Telegraph, Dec. 23, 2012)

I will finish this next post.

 

[Omni]

9 minutes ago, Rue said:

No that aint gonna cut it. You posing as an expert about Jerusalem by quoting Al Jazeera shows how full of crap you are.

In fact the 200,00 figure does not come from them. They simply repeat it,  like below,  "Should an independent Palestinian state ever be established on the West Bank, the 250,000-plus Jewish settlers scattered around it would have to be moved - as well as the more than 200,000 Israelis who now live in and around Arab east Jerusalem."  (The Sunday Telegraph, Dec. 23, 2012)

I will finish this next post.

 

You can look around and find other sources that will tell you the same thing.

 

http://www.jurist.org/paperchase/2017/03/un-israel-has-not-moved-to-stop-illegal-settlements.php

Edited December 15, 2017 by Omni

[GostHacked]

On 12/14/2017 at 3:34 PM, Rue said:

Let me know when you show the interviews with "some" Muslims and "some" Palestinians saying Jews can not marry Muslims, etc.

It's amazing you cannot admit you were wrong on the Bibi thing.

[bush_cheney2004]

Maybe Israel is waiting for Canada to give up settlements on Palest-Indian land first, knowing it will never happen.

[Rue]

24 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

It's amazing you cannot admit you were wrong on the Bibi thing.

Its amazing you would try take a man on the street interview try use it to suggest its the opinion of all Israelis let alone ignore what most of the people interviewed actually said, then try slap it off as a "Bibi thing". That is lazy. Its the kind of lazy half assed crap I am always challenging you on.

[marcus]

On 12/14/2017 at 12:41 PM, Argus said:

Given your enthusiastic support for the lowest of the low

Please show examples of this or this conversation is over. I don't have time to debate those who make things up. This is why Rue is on ignore.

[Argus]

8 minutes ago, marcus said:

Please show examples of this or this conversation is over. I don't have time to debate those who make things up. This is why Rue is on ignore.

Maybe before you put him on ignore you should have replied to his post calling you out for your ugly rant against Israelis and stated encouragement for your Palestinian brethren. In fact, your words are so filled with hate that I doubt you're even a Canadian. This reads very much like something coming from  a Muslim who originates in the Arab world.

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by Argus

[Rue]

I will first in this post deal with the actual population of Jerusalem and East Jerusalem.

In the next post I will then deal with legal scholar Omni’s claim Jews in East Jerusalem are “illegal”.

To start with:

1-Israel’s population is 8,680,000.
2-6,484,000 (74.4%) are Jewish.
3-1,808,000 are Arabs (Muslims) (20.8%)
4-The remainder including Christians, bahaiis make up 388,000 people (4.5%).
5a-Jerusalem has the largest population of any city in Israel at 865,700.
source for above: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/latest-population-statistics-for-israel
5b-Question: What is the population of Jerusalem? Answer: Jerusalem (ירושלים), Israel (Administrative unit: Yerushalayim) - last known population is ≈ 865 700 (year 2015). This was 10.735% of total Israel population. If population growth rate would be same as in period 2008-2015 (+1.88%/year), Jerusalem population in 2017 would be: 898 617*. 
source for above: http://population.city/israel/jerusalem/

The Palestinian Central Bureau of statistics claims there are 431,866 Palestinians in Jerusalem which means if we go by them there would be only 466,751 Jews in Jerusalem. If as Omni said 200,000 of those Jews lived in East Jerusalem it would mean 266,751 of Jews live in West Jerusalem. The Israeli Central Bureau of statistics had 400,501 Jews living in the West Bank as of 2016.

source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-58-million-each-palestinians-claim-theyll-be-as-numerous-as-jews-in-historical-palestine-next-year/

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_statistics_for_Israeli_settlements_in_the_West_Bank

The bottom line is it is the Central Bureau of Statistics of Israel has the Palestinians in Jerusalem at about 334,000 not 431, 866.
Studies by people doing water studies found all kinds of Palestinians not covered under any census.
So to say there are 200,000 Jews in Jerusalem is shit. Its just a guess. The CIA uses it, hey even Jewish sites use it but anyone who knows anything about Jerusalem laughs at it.

Bottom line there could be anywhere from 150-300,00 Jews in the East part and somewhere between 300-400 thousand Palestinians in the East part and the remainder anywhere from 400-500 thousand Jews in the West part. In the East part there are believed to be 9,000 of those 300-400 thousand Palestinians I mentioned who are Christian.
Its guesses.

What I can tell you is in East Jerusalem land can not be built on and remains vacant. Non Israelis on the East side have Jerusalem ID cards. They are not granted full citizenship in Israel even though it was annexed and that is a legal problem. They are in that sense second class citizens and that can not continue. However Israel does not WANT them to be Israeli and so anyone who understands this understands Israel long term does not want East Jerusalem other than access to Jewish holy sites and the security wall it put up so that once it leaves, terrorists won’t use East Jerusalem to attack West Jerusalem.

About 59 to 64% of all of Jerusalem is Jewish  and about 35% non Jewish. That’s the guesstimate.
The fact is trotting out 200,00 Jews as Omni did is bullshit for the above reason and this next reason.

People like Omni have no clue what a Palestinian or Jew is other than their instant expertise from quoting Al Jazeera and spewing sputum, The fact is the majority of Jews in East Jerusalem are called ultra-Orthodox Jews. They don’t recognize the state of Israel saying its an abomination because Israel should not have been created since it should only be created once the Messiah first comes back to earth. So they do not consider themselves Israeli. But hey when you are Omni a Jew is a Jew is a Jew.

A map of the Jewish and Arab populations of East Jerusalem can be found at:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map-of-jewish-and-arab-neighborhoods-in-east-jerusalem

Next:

“When the city  (Jerusalem) was divided almost the entire populace of the western side was Jewish. With reunification, the non-Jews from eastern Jerusalem were added and reduced the proportion of Jews to three quarters. Since then, the non-Jewish population has grown at a faster pace than the Jewish population. Accordingly, at the beginning of 2015, Jews accounted for only 63% of the city’s population.

Between 2008 and 2013, natural increase added 86,000 Jews to the city’s population. Yet, more than half of this growth was canceled out because of a negative balance of internal migration with other cities and towns across the country, as well as some emigration abroad. Overall, during these years, 39,000 inhabitants were added to the Jewish population of Jerusalem. The non-Jewish populace grew by 48,000 (mostly due to natural growth, but family reunification was also a factor).

If current trends continue, the ratio of Jews and non-Jews will level off around mid-century, and thereafter Jews in Jerusalem will be the minority.”

source for above: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/The-demography-of-Jerusalem-513337

Next:

“East Jerusalem residents make up 37% of the city’s population. According to the Central Bureau of Statistics, of the 815,300 residents in the city – 301,100 are Palestinian (37%). “

source for above: https://www.acri.org.il/en/2014/05/24/ej-numbers-14/
 

[Rue]

13 minutes ago, marcus said:

Please show examples of this or this conversation is over. I don't have time to debate those who make things up. This is why Rue is on ignore.

Hey Moe who you kidding. You read everything I write. Peekaboo I see you.

[Rue]

I would not waste my time writing any further of my own words other than to provide the sources for the  Israeli legal arguments to Jerusalem:

http://www.jcpa.org/text/israel-rights/kiyum-gold.pdf

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Israels-right-to-Jerusalem-established-firmly-in-international-law-494977

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/mike-fegelman/jerusalem-israel_b_2735338.html

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/223183

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=4&x_article=2577

https://unitedwithisrael.org/israel-is-the-legal-occupant-of-jerusalem-judea-and-samaria-rules-the-court-of-appeal-of-versailles/

http://www.mythsandfacts.org/NOQ_OnlineEdition/Chapter3/jerusalem1.htm

 

No one on this board speaking against Israel is interested in any position that sees both sides of the argument.

I do. I am not arguing Jerusalem is unilaterally only Israel's. I am saying it should ideally be a capital to two peaceful states.

I am saying that will never happen as long as Palestinian leaders/terrorists and the Arab League refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.