Onatrio Gr.6 Math Scores Dismal

[Cum Laude]

42 minutes ago, cannuck said:

 

In lieu of parents, we have always had a great alternative - extended family.   Something that is also a thing of the past.  You can hire people to do a lot of things for you, but you can't buy love.

So simple, so true, yet so elusive. You can't buy love, and phony hugs don't decrease the deficit.

Do you think in 20 years public schools will still exist? They are costing governments billions and the results are overwhelmingly dismal. It has, as you've said, become nothing more than a glorified extended daycare with the illusion that math, reading, and writing are still the focus.

 

[cannuck]

7 hours ago, Cum Laude said:

So simple, so true, yet so elusive. You can't buy love, and phony hugs don't decrease the deficit.

Do you think in 20 years public schools will still exist? They are costing governments billions and the results are overwhelmingly dismal. It has, as you've said, become nothing more than a glorified extended daycare with the illusion that math, reading, and writing are still the focus.

 

I fear they will be very much as they are now.   Would love to see taxpayers be able to take their child's share to a charter school or any other institution of their choice - but in fairness, just given to parents who will home school or use other methods.   Teachers' unions have government right by the short and curlies.

[eyeball]

On 9/17/2017 at 7:33 AM, cannuck said:

That deserves a quote as well as a like.

 

The idea that "the government" is supposed to be responsible for doing EVERYTHING for us is where the partisanship SHOULD come in, but there is nobody out there in the political world who seems to have the brains or balls to tackle this extremely important issue.  We have conned ourselves as a society into believing the future of the country lies in having a bigger house, having more money, more "stuff".    We have completely missed the fact that our future is our children, and we have abandoned our responsibilities as their parents to allow the state and contractors to step in and do what WE should be deeply involved with.

 

The failure of democracy is that we are not participating, not aware and don't seem to give a damn.  So, why do you expect our teachers (product of same) and legislators (products of the same) to behave any differently??

I don't buy it.  There are people who do participate and who do give a damn yet they're as ignored as the really unwashed.  Worse, they're often scorned by many of the same people who whine about how crappy the educations system is.

It's been my experience that the idea people should be given more responsibility in the context of democracy is even scarier than leaving things the way they are.  If there's anything that gets under the skin of a partisan faster than another partisan it's when a non-partisan suggests more direct democracy or referenda.  Nothing unites partisans of all stripes faster, along with the usual lols or rolling eyes.  There's also probably nothing better than this united stance that make governments lives easier.

There's no reason to use lazy participation as an excuse for not expanding democracy because there is probably good reason to believe the greater opportunity to participate afforded the keeners more fully, directly and often would benefit everyone....notwithstanding partisans, politicians and governments of course, I doubt they'd be very happy at all. 

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by eyeball

[jacee]

On 23/09/2017 at 10:57 AM, Cum Laude said:

So simple, so true, yet so elusive. You can't buy love, and phony hugs don't decrease the deficit.

Do you think in 20 years public schools will still exist? They are costing governments billions and the results are overwhelmingly dismal. It has, as you've said, become nothing more than a glorified extended daycare with the illusion that math, reading, and writing are still the focus.

 

Load of hooey. The results of public education are not "dismal" at all.

Canada's 15-year-old students among best global performers in science, math

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3883341

You have a privatization agenda. 

So go find me evidence that students in  private schools have better achievement levels than public school students!

I'll bet you can't:

1) Private schools may choose not participate in standard assessments (as publicly funded schools are required to do).

2) Even if they do choose to participate, they may choose not post the results publicly (as publicly funded schools are required to do).

3) Personal communication from a private school parent - They did the comparison themselves. - NO DIFFERENCE overall!

They were quite shocked.

Their schools were actually underperforming compared to public schools of similarly affluent communities. 

Don't push your privatization agenda in Canada, Cum Laude. Privatization would drag our kids down.

I challenge you to provide evidence otherwise.

Edited September 24, 2017 by jacee

[jacee]

On 10/09/2017 at 9:36 PM, Bonam said:

Native born Americans (and Canadians too, of course) tend to chase careers as athletes or celebrities, since those are what they see glamorized in the media,

Unh... No... that's not a Canadian thing at all. Don't try to speak for us. You're not very good at it. 

And it isn't true of "99%" of US'ns either: Maybe 99% of males! ...

= 99%x50%=49.5% of you ... but I really doubt that too. 

[Bonam]

On 9/24/2017 at 2:38 PM, jacee said:

Unh... No... that's not a Canadian thing at all. Don't try to speak for us. You're not very good at it. 

And it isn't true of "99%" of US'ns either: Maybe 99% of males! ...

= 99%x50%=49.5% of you ... but I really doubt that too. 

I said nothing of 99%. I said that people tend to chase those careers. Go talk to kids in grades 8-12, who are starting to think about what they might want to do. Most of them spend much of their time/energy on team sports and on things like band, acting, etc. While some realize that professional careers in these fields are unrealistic for them, that is where their passion tends to lie, for both girls and boys. Meanwhile, very few are actively interested in or excited by math and science. Why? Well, kids consume a lot of media, and the media constantly shows sports and celebrities. They show these people in a very glamorous way and as symbols of success. Take a poll of students asking how many would like to be a star football/basketball/hockey/etc player,. how many would like to be a famous actor, and how many would like to found a successful tech start-up (i.e. all pinnacles of success in their respective fields), and you'll probably get something like 95% for the first two categories and maybe 5% for the last. 

[jacee]

7 hours ago, Bonam said:

I said nothing of 99%. I said that people tend to chase those careers. Go talk to kids in grades 8-12, who are starting to think about what they might want to do. Most of them spend much of their time/energy on team sports and on things like band, acting, etc. While some realize that professional careers in these fields are unrealistic for them, that is where their passion tends to lie, for both girls and boys. Meanwhile, very few are actively interested in or excited by math and science. Why? Well, kids consume a lot of media, and the media constantly shows sports and celebrities. They show these people in a very glamorous way and as symbols of success. Take a poll of students asking how many would like to be a star football/basketball/hockey/etc player,. how many would like to be a famous actor, and how many would like to found a successful tech start-up (i.e. all pinnacles of success in their respective fields), and you'll probably get something like 95% for the first two categories and maybe 5% for the last. 

"How many would like to be" ... lol

Ask "How many would like to be billionaires". Of course they'll say yes! 

Doesn't mean they think they're going to be. 

And again, you don't speak for Canadians. We do not have the same 'rah rah' for sports as in the US. 

[Cum Laude]

On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 3:34 PM, jacee said:

Load of hooey. The results of public education are not "dismal" at all.

Canada's 15-year-old students among best global performers in science, math

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3883341

You have a privatization agenda. 

So go find me evidence that students in  private schools have better achievement levels than public school students!

I'll bet you can't:

1) Private schools may choose not participate in standard assessments (as publicly funded schools are required to do).

2) Even if they do choose to participate, they may choose not post the results publicly (as publicly funded schools are required to do).

3) Personal communication from a private school parent - They did the comparison themselves. - NO DIFFERENCE overall!

They were quite shocked.

Their schools were actually underperforming compared to public schools of similarly affluent communities. 

Don't push your privatization agenda in Canada, Cum Laude. Privatization would drag our kids down.

I challenge you to provide evidence otherwise.

MY OP was about Ontario. I've proven that Ontario is in a steady decline in math. You choose to obfuscate. Ontario is going down, down, down......just as my evidence shows. Nice try though.

Public schools and their union parroting teachers are hurting too many students.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Cum Laude

[cannuck]

On 9/23/2017 at 7:19 AM, Cum Laude said:

However, great comment, like the one cannuck made above, would never make it into major newspapers because many who control the print have used daycares to raise their kids, so we continue with the one-sided narrative that daycare is the be all to end all. Kids need parents. It's as simple as that.

I thoroughly enjoyed the book "Daycare Deception" by Brian C. Robertson. Jay Belsky, at one time was all for daycare, then after astute observations, became a major opponent of daycare.

Thanks for the kind comments.   Always amazes me that discussing islamaphobia will suck up a quarter of a thousand pages of posts, but the key to the future of the country will only be of any import to a tiny minority.

In lieu of parents, we have always had a great alternative - extended family.   Something that is also a thing of the past.  You can hire people to do a lot of things for you, but you can't buy love.

[cannuck]

My preference for charter schools has nothing at all to do with privatization agenda.   It is about CHOICE.   I pay for what I get, and I expect to freedom to choose what I get to do with my money.   Giving a monopoly on those tax dollars to union schools is usurping my right to make my own choices.   You will note: we chose to send our kids to public schools when there were many private options.   I simply object to government taking my money and giving me nothing in return if we had chosen otherwise.  I should have no obligation to fund education of others in a different manner from what I chose.

I also take issue with the notion that Canadian or American public education is so good we are leading in math or science anywhere.   Would like to know the methodology from which these results were produced.

[herples]

You are getting an education that isn't nothing. 

[Michael Hardner]

21 hours ago, cannuck said:

  I simply object to government taking my money and giving me nothing in return if we had chosen otherwise.  I should have no obligation to fund education of others in a different manner from what I chose.

I also take issue with the notion that Canadian or American public education is so good we are leading in math or science anywhere.   Would like to know the methodology from which these results were produced.

I think that there's inherent value in common education, which is that value the French revolution promoted as 'Fraternité'.  If we're so worried about immigrants not becoming Canadian enough, the answer is to blend them into classrooms where we have control over what they're taught.  Charter schools will lead to separation and disunity IMO.

'Leading in math and science' is indeed a measure of how we're doing, but it's not the only one.  Only a tiny minority of students will use these skills as a daily part of their job.  The most important things that they learn are difficult if not impossible to measure: teamwork, industriousness, civic mindedness.

But, unlike some, I feel that we need to listen to people who have complaints about the education system, just as we need to listen to complaints about the health system and justice system.  For those of you who have students in public schools, I ask if the board/school provides an easy way to give feedback on their programmes.  If so, have you tried to engage with them and how have the results been ?

[cannuck]

Michael:   I am not so sure that charter schools would result in any more separation and disunity than we have now with both parochial and catholic school boards, divisions and schools.   What is missing is an alternative that DOES listen and respond to parents' desires, as they are also clients of the institution.   Believe me, I live within a world of many teachers, and complaining/communicating to public education authorities is pissing into the wind big time.  More like pissing upwind in a level 5 hurricane.   While our kids were younger, I enjoyed access to the Minister and frustration with the massive creature that we have created (with public education) comes from both ends of the spectrum.

The way I look at it: you really don't know what the problems are until your children are "in the system", so then you want to bitch and improve.  However, the monster has so much inertia, by the time a good idea/criticism can make any impact at all, your kids are out of the system, so you go away.

Giving a monopoly on ANYTHING to government (other than governing, regulating and enforcing) is a huge mistake.   I can not think of much that government does that anyone else could do far better - the exception being social services.   And, that does NOT necessarily include education.   While there are those who are content to use public education as socializing experience and babysitting service there are also those who expect to get some educational bang for their tax buck.  Note: we do NOT include ourselves in the latter - had no expectation at all of much from public side of kids education, but certainly understand that many who can not afford the time and effort or have the skills to educate their children themselves but want them well rounded constitute a significant portion of the population.

Oh: on the math and science scores thing:  I work in a very technical world and believe me, you have a tough time finding young people who are professionals that really understand the science behind what they have been trained to do.    Saw this big time when our eldest taught bio-chem at University.  She left academia because she was sick to death of dealing with people who just wanted to pass the tests, not understand the science.   BTW: she teaches pre-schoolers now both inside the public system and in private institutions - and she couldn't be happier.  Raising her own kids but enjoying the experience that kids of that age group have endless curiosity, enthusiasm and capacity to learn.

Edited September 28, 2017 by cannuck

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

1. Michael:   I am not so sure that charter schools would result in any more separation and disunity than we have now with both parochial and catholic school boards, divisions and schools.  

2. Believe me, I live within a world of many teachers, and complaining/communicating to public education authorities is pissing into the wind big time.  

3. The way I look at it: you really don't know what the problems are until your children are "in the system", so then you want to bitch and improve.  However, the monster has so much inertia, by the time a good idea/criticism can make any impact at all, your kids are out of the system, so you go away.

4. I can not think of much that government does that anyone else could do far better - the exception being social services.   

5. Oh: on the math and science scores thing:  I work in a very technical world and believe me, you have a tough time finding young people who are professionals that really understand the science behind what they have been trained to do.   

1. Disagree.  Muslim schools, Indian schools... you'd have all of that.

2. I get it but your solution is worse than the disease.  You might have less resistance if you work within the system rather than sledgehammering it.

3. We'd need a specific example, but I don't doubt you're right.

4. Again, I agree, but there are new opportunities to impart change now.  I think voucher schools will kill education without a plan B.  

5. So do I.  Again, I would need an example.  You're talking about university level training now, not secondary.

 

[cannuck]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Disagree.  Muslim schools, Indian schools... you'd have all of that.

2. I get it but your solution is worse than the disease.  You might have less resistance if you work within the system rather than sledgehammering it.

3. We'd need a specific example, but I don't doubt you're right.

4. Again, I agree, but there are new opportunities to impart change now.  I think voucher schools will kill education without a plan B.  

5. So do I.  Again, I would need an example.  You're talking about university level training now, not secondary.

 

1.   We have them now, and it is not any kind of problem of which I am aware.  Difference is, a family must pay tax for your kid to go to a public school, and then shell out once again to pay for the education they chose for their kid.  Not fair.

2.  Of course, I do not agree.  Until you have seen that "system" up close, you can't appreciate how close to impossible it is to work intelligently within.

4.  Plan B is that you use the existing public system.  Plan A is simply that I chose where I want my tax dollars to go.

5.  Far too many issues and too little time to choose any one.  If you worked in a tech field, though, you would know in an instant what I mean.  Most of the engineering done at the highest level simply applies higher math to what was taught in primary and secondary school.   When you ask someone to explain what is being observed, for instance, on a capacitance based power factor test, they can not recall the simple physics from HS it is based upon.  Post secondary institutions DO have the ability and facilities to teach science properly, but most of the students have no interest - just want to pass the test and get the degree.   BTW: one of my kids did her research in a synchrotron and when discussing one of her beam line experiments, a ME post doc did not even know how a simple cam and follower in automobile engines worked or what it was.  We're not talking rocket science (OK, we actually are...but).

[Michael Hardner]

20 minutes ago, cannuck said:

1.   We have them now, and it is not any kind of problem of which I am aware.  Difference is, a family must pay tax for your kid to go to a public school, and then shell out once again to pay for the education they chose for their kid.  Not fair.

2.  Of course, I do not agree.  Until you have seen that "system" up close, you can't appreciate how close to impossible it is to work intelligently within.

4.  Plan B is that you use the existing public system.  Plan A is simply that I chose where I want my tax dollars to go.

5.  Far too many issues and too little time to choose any one.  

1.  If we had voucher schools, then religious education would be free across the board.  And then you'd see complete segregation.  I don't think it's practical or fair.

2. I have a lot of teachers in my family and believe me I know it sucks.  

4. No, I mean Plan B if the public system starts to collapse, as it will.  John Tory lost an election proposing expansion of religious schools by the way.

5. Hmmm.... well your example sounds well-founded but also very specific, and again it pertains to post-secondary.  But ok.

[cannuck]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  If we had voucher schools, then religious education would be free across the board.  And then you'd see complete segregation.  I don't think it's practical or fair.

2. I have a lot of teachers in my family and believe me I know it sucks.  

4. No, I mean Plan B if the public system starts to collapse, as it will.  John Tory lost an election proposing expansion of religious schools by the way.

5. Hmmm.... well your example sounds well-founded but also very specific, and again it pertains to post-secondary.  But ok.

We already have complete freedom to direct our tax dollars to the Catholic system in many provinces.   secular schools have not collapsed yet.

What makes you think that charter schools would be religious schools?   Some people out there still think schools should have a significant academic component, and those would be significant.  Others believe in different learning methods (Montesori, SELF, etc.).   All are now chosen freely by our taxpaying citizens, but I repeat: why should they pay for your (and my) kids' education?.

Edited September 29, 2017 by cannuck

[Michael Hardner]

9 hours ago, cannuck said:

We already have complete freedom to direct our tax dollars to the Catholic system in many provinces.   secular schools have not collapsed yet.

What makes you think that charter schools would be religious schools?   Some people out there still think schools should have a significant academic component, and those would be significant.  Others believe in different learning methods (Montesori, SELF, etc.).   All are now chosen freely by our taxpaying citizens, but I repeat: why should they pay for your (and my) kids' education?.

The Catholic system in Ontario has been around for a long time, and it's pretty much a parallel system.

Of course they would be religious.  If you followed the difficult debate on sex education in Ontario recently, there are a lot of Muslims, for example, who would want separate education for their kids.  Similarly, a lot of opposition to a 'Black' school in Toronto.

'Your' kids are future citizens, so like it or not I have somewhat of a say in how they're educated.

[H10]

This is not on teachers or unions, the teachers and unions had fought the provincial government for a decade and the school boards who had made a backdoor deal with book publishers, where book publishers and consultants who finance politicians role out new curriculums like "common core" where instead of kids learning multiplication tables and 10 +12 = 20.  Kids are being taught 10 + 12 =20 is wrong, and now you must do 10 +12 = 10 +  10 + 2= 20 +2 = 22.

This is the real reason why test scores are falling.  The union and teachers cried foul, the government vilinized teachers to the public as lazy and over paid - despite cops, firemen and several other blue collargovernment workers with less education outearning them substantially.

 

This is the price you pay when the public is naive and full of teacher hatred.

[Cum Laude]

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 8:23 PM, H10 said:

This is not on teachers or unions, the teachers and unions had fought the provincial government for a decade and the school boards who had made a backdoor deal with book publishers, where book publishers and consultants who finance politicians role out new curriculums like "common core" where instead of kids learning multiplication tables and 10 +12 = 20.  Kids are being taught 10 + 12 =20 is wrong, and now you must do 10 +12 = 10 +  10 + 2= 20 +2 = 22.

This is the real reason why test scores are falling.  The union and teachers cried foul, the government vilinized teachers to the public as lazy and over paid - despite cops, firemen and several other blue collargovernment workers with less education outearning them substantially.

 

This is the price you pay when the public is naive and full of teacher hatred.

I disagree. I don't an overwhelming number of teachers raising ire at a terrible math curriculum. And the unions could care less about the kids. They have never cared about kids, just optics.

[H10]

6 minutes ago, Cum Laude said:

I disagree. I don't an overwhelming number of teachers raising ire at a terrible math curriculum. And the unions could care less about the kids. They have never cared about kids, just optics.

Yeah the 6 o'clock news is not going to publish it, and the union had been fighting it but ultimately they have no real power to make the curriculum.

It is true there are lots of bad teachers who don't care, but many do.