Brian Mulroney vs Stephen Harper

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, August1991 said:

1. I'm not a Team A defender of Mulroney - but Mulroney also rolled forward apartheid.

Progressive, Conservative, Forward, Backward....

==========

2. Justin Trudeau now defends Free Trade. John Turner in 1988 did not. 

IMHO, federal Liberals change with/follow perceived opinion; they are practical, true democrats.

1. Rolled forward the anti-apartheid movement, you mean.  Harper had many powerful cabinet numbers who supported AND VOTED FOR transgender rights.  They dropped the 'progressive' out of the name, but they couldn't drop the Ontario from the centres of power.

2. True, but this is not a bad thing necessarily.  The CBC now runs stories about "what happens if NAFTA is killed ?".  I suspect they're suspicious of Trump's suspicion.   Trudeau has now settled down to doing... well, nothing much.  We're in a time of great change, so leadership is needed now more than ever. 

[PIK]

18 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You seriously have t ask about Harper government scandals?  A book can be written about them.

Yes I am asking and you are deflecting, so put up or shut up.

[CITIZEN_2015]

First off you shut up yourself. Be respectful and debate in a mature manner rather then throw insults against those who may disagree with you r you will receive in kind.

But to answer what you already know yourself (unless you were hiding under rock or both blind and deaf):

1 - SENATE APPOINTMENTS: The Senate has been the source of Harper’s most damaging scandal, one that goes to the heart of his office. Unsuccessful in efforts to reform the upper chamber, Harper began to stack it with Tory loyalists. Several appointments now haunt him. Mike Duffy, Patrick Brazeau and Pamela Wallin were suspended from the Senate for allegations of improper expense claims; Duffy and Brazeau faced criminal charges related to their spending. Harper’s own office has been embroiled after it was revealed that Nigel Wright, his chief of staff at the time, cut a $90,000 cheque to cover Duffy’s questionable expenses. Don Meredith, a Toronto senator, quit the Conservative caucus after the Star revealed allegations he had a sexual relationship with a teenager.

2 - ELECTION SCANDALS: The Conservatives have found themselves at the centre of multiple investigations over their election activities. In the 2006 “in-and-out” scandal, the Conservative party pled guilty to exceeding national election advertising limits. In the 2011 election, robocalls misdirected voters away from the polls. A Conservative staffer was convicted in that scandal. Former Conservative MP Dean Del Mastro, once Harper’s parliamentary secretary, was convicted of breaking spending rules in the 2008 vote. And in 2013, then-Labrador MP Peter Penashue was forced to quit Harper’s cabinet over illegal campaign donations.

3 - SUPREME COURT TUSSLE: Harper’s frustration with the courts came to a head in 2014 when his appointment of Marc Nadon to the top bench was rejected because Nadon failed to meet eligibility requirements. Harper accused Supreme Court Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin of making “inadvisable and inappropriate” attempts to reach him on the issue, an episode author John Ibbitson describes as the “nadir” of his time in power. “Not only did he lose the fight; he tarnished his reputation and damaged what should be the sacrosanct separation of powers between executive and judiciary,” Ibbitson wrote in his book, Stephen Harper.

4 - G8 FUNDING: In the lead up to the 2010 G8 meeting in Huntsville, senior cabinet minister Tony Clement personally directed a $50-million “legacy” fund, funneling millions in infrastructure to his Muskoka riding. Municipalities far from the actual summit site were given hundreds of thousands of dollars for sidewalk improvements, parks, and most infamously, a gazebo. A subsequent investigation by the auditor general showed funds were doled out with no bureaucratic oversight or paper trails. Clement was later promoted to president of the Treasury Board, the department that oversees government spending.

5 - CONTEMPT RULINGS: In 2011, Speaker Peter Milliken ruled the Conservative government was in contempt of Parliament on two separate instances: when the international aid minister lied about the defunding of charitable organization KAIROS, and cabinet’s refusal to reveal the costs of corporate tax cuts, criminal justice measures, and the beleaguered F-35 fighter jet program. The rulings were a major blow at the time to the Conservatives, and helped precipitate the 2011 federal election. Voters however didn’t seem to mind — the Conservatives won a majority.

https://www.thestar.com/news/federal-election/2015/08/14/a-conservative-collection-of-harper-government-scandals.html

Edited August 31, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 2017-08-28 at 7:07 PM, -TSS- said:

Someone else on this forum informed me when I asked about Mulroney that he turned out to be a crook and a liar and therefore he is not much missed in your country. All politicians are crooks and liars but the trick is not to get caught.

There was a scandal but it's a small part of his legacy compared to free trade and the GST. Harper continued in Mulroney and Chretien's footsteps on most fronts because he knew Canada wouldn't tolerate a serious shift to the right. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 2017-08-30 at 2:54 PM, PIK said:

Like what mike? Being tougher on criminals? Trying to keep the crud out of this country? Not putting the country into a huge debt hole? what?

He did run deficits. I don't blame him for that but he did do it. The final surplus was a gimmick. 

He also presided over an opioid crisis in this country and seemed to think that closing safe injection sites reduced the problem. 

 

[August1991]

On 8/31/2017 at 7:27 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1. Rolled forward the anti-apartheid movement, you mean.  Harper had many powerful cabinet numbers who supported AND VOTED FOR transgender rights.  They dropped the 'progressive' out of the name, but they couldn't drop the Ontario from the centres of power.

2. True, but this is not a bad thing necessarily.  The CBC now runs stories about "what happens if NAFTA is killed ?".  I suspect they're suspicious of Trump's suspicion.   Trudeau has now settled down to doing... well, nothing much.  We're in a time of great change, so leadership is needed now more than ever. 

1. Go back in time, to Thatcher, Reagan and de Klerk. In part because of Mulroney, apartheid no longer exists. (Michael, don't equate apartheid with "transgender rights" - the colour of one's skin is what it is.)

2. Free trade? Justin Trudeau now argues like Brian Mulroney, while Donald Trump argues like John Turner. Go figure.

=====

The CBC.... I am forced to pay for CBC.

I choose to pay for Le Devoir.

I read content here without fee.

Edited September 2, 2017 by August1991

[August1991]

Betsy? Where is Betsy?

Betsy, what do you think about Mulroney and Harper?

[August1991]

On 8/31/2017 at 4:30 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

...

1 - SENATE APPOINTMENTS: The Senate has been the source of Harper’s most damaging scandal...

2 - ELECTION SCANDALS: The Conservatives have found themselves at the centre of multiple investigations over their election activities....

3 - SUPREME COURT TUSSLE: Harper’s frustration with the courts came to a head in 2014 when his appointment of Marc Nadon to the top bench was rejected because Nadon failed to meet eligibility requirements. Harper accused Supreme Court Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin of making “inadvisable and inappropriate” attempts to reach him on the issue....

....

.https://www.thestar.com/news/federal-election/2015/08/14/a-conservative-collection-of-harper-government-scandals.html

1. The Senate - Harper's error, possibly Trudeau Jnr's death bed. 

2. Election Scandals: I reckon that the federal liberals will survive 2019.

3. Our Supreme Court is, well ... since 1964, who has largely named the judges?

....

Same old, same old.

[jbg]

On 8/29/2017 at 3:59 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I meant with his (Harper's) extreme right wing attitudes and policies, his style of running the country and even his own party with iron fist. His dictatorial tactics and the corrupt manner he ran the government and the scandals after scandals during his rule. The manipulative manner he imposed his ideologies. His imposed rules and laws were ideological not evidence based. His rule was alien to this country and undemocratic going against all the principles that this country was founded and stands. His exclusiveness versus inclusiveness adopted by Trudeau.

Your post is so full of whoppers that it's funny. Harper was in no way governing from the extreme right wing even though with a pretty good majority he could whip Parliament. While there may have been some corruption he didn't enable or tolerate it.  Nothing like the Mulroney or Chretien years. Ever read On the Take?

[jbg]

On 8/30/2017 at 2:59 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You seriously have t ask about Harper government scandals?  A book can be written about them.

A book was written about the Mulroney scandals, On the Take, and Mulroney didn't sue. Where's the book on the Harper scandals, now that he's been out of office for just shy of two years.

[jbg]

On 8/31/2017 at 9:42 AM, PIK said:

Yes I am asking and you are deflecting, so put up or shut up.

On 8/31/2017 at 4:30 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

First off you shut up yourself. Be respectful and debate in a mature manner rather then throw insults against those who may disagree with you r you will receive in kind.

He didn't say "shut up;" he said "put up or shut up." That's more like asking, at the conclusion of poker bidding to show your cards. Someone is going to have a four-point flush. And none of the scandals you've listed rise to the level of Mulroney's  Bombardier, the non-existent cheese factory, the bogus burglary/destruction of records right after Mulroney was sworn in, or Chretien's Shawinigate, the Sponsorship scandal, or Judy Sgro's call girl scandal.

 

[PIK]

On 8/31/2017 at 4:30 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

First off you shut up yourself. Be respectful and debate in a mature manner rather then throw insults against those who may disagree with you r you will receive in kind.

But to answer what you already know yourself (unless you were hiding under rock or both blind and deaf):

1 - SENATE APPOINTMENTS: The Senate has been the source of Harper’s most damaging scandal, one that goes to the heart of his office. Unsuccessful in efforts to reform the upper chamber, Harper began to stack it with Tory loyalists. Several appointments now haunt him. Mike Duffy, Patrick Brazeau and Pamela Wallin were suspended from the Senate for allegations of improper expense claims; Duffy and Brazeau faced criminal charges related to their spending. Harper’s own office has been embroiled after it was revealed that Nigel Wright, his chief of staff at the time, cut a $90,000 cheque to cover Duffy’s questionable expenses. Don Meredith, a Toronto senator, quit the Conservative caucus after the Star revealed allegations he had a sexual relationship with a teenager.

2 - ELECTION SCANDALS: The Conservatives have found themselves at the centre of multiple investigations over their election activities. In the 2006 “in-and-out” scandal, the Conservative party pled guilty to exceeding national election advertising limits. In the 2011 election, robocalls misdirected voters away from the polls. A Conservative staffer was convicted in that scandal. Former Conservative MP Dean Del Mastro, once Harper’s parliamentary secretary, was convicted of breaking spending rules in the 2008 vote. And in 2013, then-Labrador MP Peter Penashue was forced to quit Harper’s cabinet over illegal campaign donations.

3 - SUPREME COURT TUSSLE: Harper’s frustration with the courts came to a head in 2014 when his appointment of Marc Nadon to the top bench was rejected because Nadon failed to meet eligibility requirements. Harper accused Supreme Court Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin of making “inadvisable and inappropriate” attempts to reach him on the issue, an episode author John Ibbitson describes as the “nadir” of his time in power. “Not only did he lose the fight; he tarnished his reputation and damaged what should be the sacrosanct separation of powers between executive and judiciary,” Ibbitson wrote in his book, Stephen Harper.

4 - G8 FUNDING: In the lead up to the 2010 G8 meeting in Huntsville, senior cabinet minister Tony Clement personally directed a $50-million “legacy” fund, funneling millions in infrastructure to his Muskoka riding. Municipalities far from the actual summit site were given hundreds of thousands of dollars for sidewalk improvements, parks, and most infamously, a gazebo. A subsequent investigation by the auditor general showed funds were doled out with no bureaucratic oversight or paper trails. Clement was later promoted to president of the Treasury Board, the department that oversees government spending.

5 - CONTEMPT RULINGS: In 2011, Speaker Peter Milliken ruled the Conservative government was in contempt of Parliament on two separate instances: when the international aid minister lied about the defunding of charitable organization KAIROS, and cabinet’s refusal to reveal the costs of corporate tax cuts, criminal justice measures, and the beleaguered F-35 fighter jet program. The rulings were a major blow at the time to the Conservatives, and helped precipitate the 2011 federal election. Voters however didn’t seem to mind — the Conservatives won a majority.

https://www.thestar.com/news/federal-election/2015/08/14/a-conservative-collection-of-harper-government-scandals.html

#1- All harper did was try and get back money owed to the taxpayer.

#2- Totally blown out of proportion. Small potatoes that happens. Remember the raid on the conservative office and CBC was already waiting there when the police showed up and del mastro in chains, really?

#3 Ibbitson?? Enough said. Can't a PM disagree with judges and the judges have shown incompetence in this country. Like the judge that presided over duffy's case.

#4- Regular government BS, .50m, a drop in the bucket compared to what the ONT and FEDERAL liberals do.

#5- That whole F-35 was again blown out of proportion by the media and the liberals . We will end up buying them, or our people will be in danger like when chretien screwed up the helicopters, how many people died because of that and of course the helicopter scandal in ONT. And the contempt of court ,was that not harper saving the country from the liberals, NDP and the separatists. Imagine how much trouble this country would be in today if harper allowed that to happen.

#6- The star.LOL

Edited September 7, 2017 by PIK

[Mirran84]

Hello! I'm new here, but I think Stephen Harper is better

[PIK]

2 hours ago, Mirran84 said:

Hello! I'm new here, but I think Stephen Harper is better

And a lot of canadians are finding that out the hard way.

[jbg]

3 hours ago, Mirran84 said:

1 hour ago, PIK said:

And a lot of canadians are finding that out the hard way.

Hello! I'm new here, but I think Stephen Harper is better

Harper was more boring and his singing voice sucked. And Trudeau's French is better. Two good reasons for him to have won.

 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, PIK said:

And a lot of canadians are finding that out the hard way.

Too simple.  No one person is 'better' than another.  It's actually kind of an arrogant and elitist viewpoint.

4 hours ago, Mirran84 said:

Hello! I'm new here, but I think Stephen Harper is better

Yeah, ok.  Why ?  Care to post reasons, something that would make your opinion relatable, interesting or worth discussing ?

[Argus]

On 8/28/2017 at 8:37 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Mulroney's legacy:

He almost broke up the country.

Nonsense. The biggest threats of this country breaking up came during Trudeau and Chretien's rule

On 8/28/2017 at 8:37 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Harper's legacy:

He almost destroyed the country.

Again, utter nonsense. There is not a single thing or any combination of things you can point to to suggest he almost destroyed the country.

[Argus]

On 8/31/2017 at 4:30 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

First off you shut up yourself. Be respectful and debate in a mature manner rather then throw insults against those who may disagree with you r you will receive in kind.

But to answer what you already know yourself (unless you were hiding under rock or both blind and deaf):

1 - SENATE APPOINTMENTS:

2 - ELECTION SCANDALS:

3 - SUPREME COURT TUSSLE:

4 - G8 FUNDING:

5 - CONTEMPT RULINGS: In 2011,

The senate appointments were similar to what had been going on for over a century. Harper did nothing different than Chretien or Mulroney or Trudeau before him. It was just exposed during his time in office because the national media despised him for having a few views which were not entirely progressive. The election 'scandals' were minor, involving very little money and whether it was appropriately declared. Tony Clement's spending $50k on his riding is a laughable excuse for a scandal given the routine manner in which all previous and present government divert funding for electoral gain. See the hundreds of MILLIONS Chretien diverted into his riding, as an example, or the many tens of millions Paul Martin Jr diverted to helpping expand and renovate a private airport in rural Quebec used by his in-laws. As for the contempt rulings. That was simply the opposition acting in a way oppositions had never acted before in minority parliaments and demanding all manner of internal documentation on government operations in hopes of finding something to use against the Tories.

Calling any of these major scandals is an exageration. Using them to suggest he almost destroyed the government is absurd and insane.

[peoples advocate]

On ‎2017‎-‎08‎-‎28 at 2:00 AM, August1991 said:

Mulroney's Legacy

1. He gave us a free trade agreement.

2. He gave us the GST.

3. He tried to change UI.

4. He tried to change our Constitution.

======

Harper's Legacy

1. He got rid of the penny.

2. He said "Désormais... "

3. He changed our hate speech law.

4. He tried to change the Senate.

===

Am I missing something?

put thousands of third world workers at risk by continuing to ship Asbestos to them and blocking it from being labeled as dangerous goods. Harper.

[-TSS-]

I checked out that before Mulroney there was 21 years (1963-1984) of Liberals in government. So, perhaps the only reason why he got elected was people's yearning for a change.