Native complaints about Canada's 150th

[jacee]

Just now, bcsapper said:

Yeah, I'm actually talking about doing the opposite. I'd like to avoid their physical destruction if possible. 

Genocide is not just about physical destruction of people. It's about trying to destroy them as a group - ie, so they don't exist as Indigenous Peoples and are absorbed into the dominant culture.

I believe that's what you are suggesting?

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, jacee said:

Genocide is not just about physical destruction of people. It's about trying to destroy them as a group - ie, so they don't exist as Indigenous Peoples and are absorbed into the dominant culture.

I believe that's what you are suggesting?

 

Sure.  But they can still be part of the multicultural mosaic.  And I'm certainly not advocating it for successful bands, where their kids don't commit suicide due to despair at their prospects. 

[Hal 9000]

2 minutes ago, jacee said:

Genocide is not just about physical destruction of people. It's about trying to destroy them as a group - ie, so they don't exist as Indigenous Peoples and are absorbed into the dominant culture.

I believe that's what you are suggesting?

 

Oh, I get it; you'd rather see them starve and commit suicide with their culture intact, rather than save the individuals.

[jacee]

27 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

This is that same stupid argument that if the politicians can give themselves a $5000 raise, why can't they give (insert victimized union worker) a 20% raise?  

Ok, let me put it this way; in order to bring every reserve up to date as far as medical, housing, education, social services and all the other things that would be needed, each and every (from newborn on up to 100 YO's) Canadian would owe $30,000.  A young family of 5 would owe $150,000.  That's before yearly upkeep of those reserves.  Yearly upkeep to those standards would add a couple thousand more to the bill. 

That's interesting information. Do you have a source?

 

[Hal 9000]

2 minutes ago, jacee said:

That's interesting information. Do you have a source?

 

It's called math.  How much do you think it would cost per band?  

[jacee]

1 minute ago, Hal 9000 said:

Oh, I get it; you'd rather see them starve and commit suicide with their culture intact, rather than save the individuals.

No I'd rather they were properly funded for services, land claims were settled for capital to start businesses so they can be more self-sufficient, paid proper revenues from development on their traditional lands, rivers lakes and forests cleaned of industry contamination ... 

And I think every Canadian needs to understand: The conditions in Indigenous communities are not due to Indigenous cultures, but due to Canada's genocidal acts against those cultures.

[jacee]

1 minute ago, Hal 9000 said:

It's called math.  How much do you think it would cost per band?  

Did you pull those numbers out of a hat?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, jacee said:

No I'd rather they were properly funded for services, land claims were settled for capital to start businesses so they can be more self-sufficient, paid proper revenues from development on their traditional lands, rivers lakes and forests cleaned of industry contamination ... 

And I think every Canadian needs to understand: The conditions in Indigenous communities are not due to Indigenous cultures, but due to Canada's genocidal acts against those cultures.

I think where they live and who they have in charge are two major factors.

[jacee]

14 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Sure.  But they can still be part of the multicultural mosaic.  And I'm certainly not advocating it for successful bands, where their kids don't commit suicide due to despair at their prospects. 

I think there are things we could do first, should have done before now, as I said above:

"I'd rather they were properly funded for services, land claims were settled for capital to start businesses so they can be more self-sufficient, paid proper revenues from development on their traditional lands, rivers lakes and forests cleaned of industry contamination ... 

And I think every Canadian needs to understand: The conditions in Indigenous communities are not due to Indigenous cultures, but due to Canada's genocidal acts against those cultures."

[Hal 9000]

1 minute ago, jacee said:

No I'd rather they were properly funded for services, land claims were settled for capital to start businesses so they can be more self-sufficient, paid proper revenues from development on their traditional lands, rivers lakes and forests cleaned of industry contamination ... 

And I think every Canadian needs to understand: The conditions in Indigenous communities are not due to Indigenous cultures, but due to Canada's genocidal acts against those cultures.

Oh, now we should clean their land too.  WoW, your generosity know now bounds - of course, neither does your common sense.

Let's look at Attawapasat for a minute.  They were given $90 Million + jobs, houses and business revenue based on expected earnings (6.7 $b) , not earnings - expected earnings.  They were given the cash pretty much upfront.  Now, forget that they "lost" the money, when they went back and demanded more, the mine packed up and left - essentially killing the golden goose. 

You won't get it, but the point is this; just because a company expects a certain amount of return, there are tremendous expenses to are attached to that project, if DeBeers was willing to drop the investment and leave that product in the ground over a money dispute with the FN's, just how much net income do you think these companies make? 

[Hal 9000]

9 minutes ago, jacee said:

Did you pull those numbers out of a hat?

No, seriously!  What do you think the cost of updating (to our city standards) even one reserve would cost the taxpayer?

[jacee]

4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I think where they live and who they have in charge are two major factors.

I think government underfunding of services (intentional neglect), failure to resolve land claims, failure to ensure that they get proper revenues from development are the most significant financial  factors.

And the intergenerational trauma from residential schools is very significant too.

 

[jacee]

8 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

Oh, now we should clean their land too.  WoW, your generosity know now bounds - of course, neither does your common sense.

Let's look at Attawapasat for a minute.  They were given $90 Million + jobs, houses and business revenue based on expected earnings (6.7 $b) , not earnings - expected earnings.  They were given the cash pretty much upfront.  Now, forget that they "lost" the money, when they went back and demanded more, the mine packed up and left - essentially killing the golden goose. 

You won't get it, but the point is this; just because a company expects a certain amount of return, there are tremendous expenses to are attached to that project, if DeBeers was willing to drop the investment and leave that product in the ground over a money dispute with the FN's, just how much net income do you think these companies make? 

Source?

I found it.

That $90m didn't come from DeBeers.

That was Harper adding up five years of their funding to bamboozle people like you:

"Thus, $90 million refers to the total of an average of about $18 million per year in federal funding since 2006."

http://m.huffingtonpost.ca/chelsea-vowel/attawapiskat-emergency_b_1127066.html

Edited July 7, 2017 by jacee

[Hal 9000]

Just now, jacee said:

Source?

Source?  For what?  It's all common knowledge - just google "Attawapaskat DeBeers", there are many articles, the most informative are National Post.

[jacee]

6 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

Source?  For what?  It's all common knowledge - just google "Attawapaskat DeBeers", there are many articles, the most informative are National Post.

Not really. Hff post was much more accurate.

See above.

[Hal 9000]

2 minutes ago, jacee said:

Not really. Hff post was much more accurate.

See above.

C'mon, the HP isn't news, it's opinion, left wing opinion at that.  I'm surprised you haven't quoted the "warrior publications".  Go read the Financial Post.

[jacee]

23 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

C'mon, the HP isn't news, it's opinion, left wing opinion at that.  I'm surprised you haven't quoted the "warrior publications".  Go read the Financial Post.

Actually the National Post is good too, but it doesn't say what you said. There was no $90m upfront, certainly not from DeBeers.

That malarky was Harper bafflegab. I guess he tricked you?

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/brett-hodnett-the-real-math-behind-attawapiskats-90-million/wcm/66f4f973-8506-480e-a1ca-bfd2bb837a84

$90m over 5 years for 

• education per pupil
• education infrastructure (maintenan­ce, repair, teacher salaries, etc)
• health-care per patient
• health-care, infrastruc­ture (clinics, staff, access to services outside the community in the absence of facilities on reserve)
• social services (facilitie­s, staff, etc)
• infrastruc­ture (maintenan­ce and constructi­on)
• a myriad of other services

And $5.8m for housing.

This is just their normal federal funding.

They didn't " lose" any money.

That was Harperlies and slander propaganda. Really f'n creepy.

Did you fall for it Hal?

Or are you part of it?

Edited July 7, 2017 by jacee

[Hal 9000]

We do actually know that the $90M was over 5 years -- that point is stated in nearly every article.  My point about the money being "pretty much upfront" is because DeBeers hadn't actually made the allotted money before handing it to the reserve.

So, what did the $90M do to help the community?  Once you answer that, then maybe go back to the question about what it would take to bring that reserve up to the standards that you're seeking. 

 

[Hal 9000]

"Diamond company DeBeers already pays the Attawapiskat council nearly $3 million a year for a town of under 2,000 people.

Five years ago, DeBeers gave the community 22 housing units after former Chief Theresa Spence declared a housing emergency. Spence (whose Idle No More hunger strike made her famous) was only too happy to tour southern reporters around the walled tents and uninsulated shacks some residents were living in during the winter. But what most newscasts missed were the empty DeBeers units that Spence and council couldn’t figure out how to distribute.

The mining company has also done over $350 million in business with companies at Attawapiskat since 2006 to supply DeBeers with helicopters, camp catering, fuel, dynamite and other supplies. Many of those businesses are owned by the band.

The proceeds are supposed to go towards new housing, sanitation and recreation. But by the looks of Attawapiskat, the money isn’t making it to where it’s supposed to go.

Moreover, one in seven adults at Attawapiskat is employed by DeBeers – 20% of the mine’s workforce.

Ottawa sends the community another $18 million or more a year, plus more for new houses. Then there is the million or more from the Ontario government and a similar amount from a revenue-sharing agreement for proceeds from aboriginal casinos in southern Ontario.

It’s not uncommon for the Attawapiskat council to receive $30 million annually, or somewhere around $18,000 per resident.

A typical non-aboriginal community in Northern Ontario would have revenues of about $3,500, mostly from its own taxes. It wouldn’t have to pay for its residents’ clinics or housing, the way the First Nation does, but it would have to pay some of its own infrastructure, plus sewage, snow clearing, garbage collection, policing, rec centers and so on.

Now recall that an audit of Attawapiskat’s books in 2013 found over 80% of the band’s transactions lacked sufficient paperwork to determine where or how the money was spent".

[Argus]

14 hours ago, jacee said:

And you.

I don't have to explain to you why advocating destruction of Indigenous cultures isn't 'right'.

It's illegal.

You might want to cool it.

Stop with the nonsensical legal claims. There is absoluely nothing illegal about advocating 'cultural genocide' since it doesn't actually exist. Trying to place this into the same category as actual genocide is idiotic, dishonest, insulting and highly disrespectful to the victims of genocide.

[DogOnPorch]

21 minutes ago, Argus said:

Stop with the nonsensical legal claims. There is absoluely nothing illegal about advocating 'cultural genocide' since it doesn't actually exist. Trying to place this into the same category as actual genocide is idiotic, dishonest, insulting and highly disrespectful to the victims of genocide.

 

"Cut down the tall trees!"

Was never uttered in Canada.

[eyeball]

On 7/6/2017 at 9:22 AM, Accountability Now said:

Perhaps....just maybe...your side embellishes a tad? Lol.

May, but it still wouldn't even begin to come close to the Pride your side gushes.

[Accountability Now]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

May, but it still wouldn't even begin to come close to the Pride your side gushes.

Don't mind that at all. 

[cannuck]

14 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

"Diamond company DeBeers already pays the Attawapiskat council nearly $3 million a year for a town of under 2,000 people.

Five years ago, DeBeers gave the community 22 housing units after former Chief Theresa Spence declared a housing emergency. Spence (whose Idle No More hunger strike made her famous) was only too happy to tour southern reporters around the walled tents and uninsulated shacks some residents were living in during the winter. But what most newscasts missed were the empty DeBeers units that Spence and council couldn’t figure out how to distribute.

The mining company has also done over $350 million in business with companies at Attawapiskat since 2006 to supply DeBeers with helicopters, camp catering, fuel, dynamite and other supplies. Many of those businesses are owned by the band.

The proceeds are supposed to go towards new housing, sanitation and recreation. But by the looks of Attawapiskat, the money isn’t making it to where it’s supposed to go.

Moreover, one in seven adults at Attawapiskat is employed by DeBeers – 20% of the mine’s workforce.

Ottawa sends the community another $18 million or more a year, plus more for new houses. Then there is the million or more from the Ontario government and a similar amount from a revenue-sharing agreement for proceeds from aboriginal casinos in southern Ontario.

It’s not uncommon for the Attawapiskat council to receive $30 million annually, or somewhere around $18,000 per resident.

A typical non-aboriginal community in Northern Ontario would have revenues of about $3,500, mostly from its own taxes. It wouldn’t have to pay for its residents’ clinics or housing, the way the First Nation does, but it would have to pay some of its own infrastructure, plus sewage, snow clearing, garbage collection, policing, rec centers and so on.

Now recall that an audit of Attawapiskat’s books in 2013 found over 80% of the band’s transactions lacked sufficient paperwork to determine where or how the money was spent".

This is pretty much the status quo for many reserves.   I could cite dozens of similar situations. but probably best if I refer to some I know of first hand.  One of my clients sold a substation to serve three reserves in Norther Ontario a while back.   When we got there to assemble and test the transformer, we were directed to an area OFF all of the reserves, in the  middle of nowhere.  When questioned, the response was that if it was to be put on any one reserve, they would simply shut the power off to the others if the lost a hockey game or something similar.  We shipped the switchgear building pre-assembled, just needing to be landed and connected to the transformer and local distribution network.  A year later, the bill was still not paid, and when our guys went to see what was going on, turns out the bands had trashed everything and there was nothing salvageable.   Fast forward another couple decades, and a friend was dealing with governments about putting in adequate drinking water supplies.  The agencies were very clear that the plants would have to be put off reserve and water piped over the line.  It would have to be operated and maintained by someone...er...gee, I have to be politically correct...NOT LIVING ON RESERVE - or it would simply be left unattended or worse yet destroyed.

These things are simply a fact of life.  When you take a population and make it dependent - and fund it very heavily - you get a bunch of people who have nothing else to do but either sit around and reproduce and stay stoned or learn to whine and lobby for the handouts that feed the beast.  Doesn't matter if we are speaking about reserves in Canada or inner cities in the USA (or Europe).  Pretty much EVERY other small community in Canada has only a tiny bit of the problems typical to reserves or inner cities.  Reason?   Everyone is too busy working to build and support their families, communities, business and infrastructure.

[jacee]

16 hours ago, Argus said:

Stop with the nonsensical legal claims. There is absoluely nothing illegal about advocating 'cultural genocide' since it doesn't actually exist. Trying to place this into the same category as actual genocide is idiotic, dishonest, insulting and highly disrespectful to the victims of genocide.

Genocide is genocide. It is the deliberate destruction of cultures, however it is done.

Edited July 8, 2017 by jacee