Women Who Cover Their Faces Shouldn't Be accepted To Enter Canada!

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

I accept your surrender.

 

More like: I accept yours. Reply to my points or accept defeat.

[dialamah]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

 

More like: I accept yours. Reply to my points or accept defeat.

I did and accurately predicted your response.

I win.  You lose.  

 

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, dialamah said:

I did and accurately predicted your response.

I win.  You lose.  

 

 

If you say so.

My responses stand, then.

1. Zakat is a tithe collected by mosques and distributed by same to needy Muslims...it's a tithe...not true charity. In the West, some Zakat is towards non-Muslim beneficiaries that ultimately benefit Islam.

2. Sharia banking is fine in Sharia states. In the West, it leads to unfair mortgages, loans and such. Interest is a two-way street.

3. Family values are important in the West. They're just not Islamic family values where women are property.

4. Family life is also important to Westerners. Not a value exclusive to Islam.

5. Dhimmitude and Jizya must be accepted to be "protected" as a 2nd class citizen under Sharia.

6. Islam is extremely anti-animal. Mohammad even ordered all dogs be killed. Halal method butchers animals by bleeding out...a terrifying prospect for any creature. But, apparently being terrified as the creature dies does something to the meat.

7. Again...the only way you're practicing your Infidel religion under Sharia is as a Dhimmi. A second class citizen. You pay the tax...but still might get murdered (see Coptic Christians).

[dialamah]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

 

If you say so.

My responses stand, then.

1. Zakat is a tithe collected by mosques and distributed by same to needy Muslims...it's a tithe...not true charity. In the West, some Zakat is towards non-Muslim beneficiaries that ultimately benefit Islam.

2. Sharia banking is fine in Sharia states. In the West, it leads to unfair mortgages, loans and such. Interest is a two-way street.

3. Family values are important in the West. They're just not Islamic family values where women are property.

4. Family life is also important to Westerners. Not a value exclusive to Islam.

5. Dhimmitude and Jizya must be accepted to be "protected" as a 2nd class citizen under Sharia.

6. Islam is extremely anti-animal. Mohammad even ordered all dogs be killed. Halal method butchers animals by bleeding out...a terrifying prospect for any creature. But, apparently being terrified as the creature dies does something to the meat.

7. Again...the only way you're practicing your Infidel religion under Sharia is as a Dhimmi. A second class citizen. You pay the tax...but still might get murdered (see Coptic Christians).

You did exactly as predicted:  denied anything "good" about Islam.  It wouldn't matter if I quoted verse after verse from the Quran or posted multiple hadiths or gave a million examples of Muslims who actually practice those 'good things' that are taught in Islam.  You would deny them simply based on the fact that you can find examples of Muslims who don't practice those things, or you can find verses and hadiths who contradict those things; you'll claim that Muslims who choose 'good' over 'bad' are not genuine Muslims.  

I hold the position that people *choose* what they believe and that a Muslim is equally able to choose "good" from Islam as "bad".       You hold the position that only valid choice from Islam is 'bad'.  It's only an unreasonable person who will only allow one perspective when many are clearly available.

My 'support' of Islam or the behavior of Muslims is not completen or blind.  Your condemnation of Islam is both complete and blind.   That's why I'm the winner and you are the Islamaphobe.     

 

  

[Omni]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

My 'support' of Islam or the behavior of Muslims is not completen or blind.  Your condemnation of Islam is both complete and blind.   That's why I'm the winner and you are the Islamaphobe.  

A succinct and accurate summation.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Ya see?   You reject anything that might show Islam in a different light.   This is an unreasoning fear of Islam, aka Islamaphobia.

Or perhaps it's a 'reasoning' fear of Islam.

There is a distinction you continue to ignore.

[dialamah]

Just now, Argus said:

Or perhaps it's a 'reasoning' fear of Islam.

There is a distinction you continue to ignore.

You are more reasoned than DoP

 

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

• Charity is a requirement, and for every Muslim I know, is applicable to Muslim and non-Muslim alike.
• Loaning/borrowing money is highly frowned upon, and charging interest even more so.    
• Taking care of one's family so the State doesn't have to, nor do they need to live on the street or in poverty.
• For many (not me, specifically) the focus on family life as being the basis of society and most important element in any individual's life.
• To protect human life, even the life of an enemy.
• To show mercy to animals.
• To allow others freedom to worship God in their own way.

It's a great list of values, but I don't see these things in "mainstream" Islam.  That is not to say that some individual Muslims do nto believe these things, but I don't believe it is as mainstream as you think.

For instance, I've read articles about the multiple wives being brought here and living off of welfare.  And when I worked for the lawyer, one of our clients was a low-income housing company for whom we would try to re-coup refusals to pay rent, and the largest portion of these were Muslims, who basically laughed in our faces, knowing they could not be removed easily from a property, especially when they had 8 kids and it was the middle of January.  So, no....I don't believe "taking care of one's family" is a mainstream islamic belief.  this is in Canada.

"Protect human life" - Yeah, no...I watched as an on-line group of Muslims tore an Israeli girl to shreds - yes, they absoutely DO think Jews are not human.  And not one of the 30 or so who piled on her, describing to her how she should die in the most revolting of terms, stopped their fellow Muslims from the attack. I saw exactly what they think of Jews and Westerners.  This is in Canada.

As far as the Eid sacrifices - I understand Paris had asked last year for Muslims to not slaughter animals in tthe streets, not sure how that went over.  While Muslims insist animals are slaughtered humanely, there have been many, many reports that show otherwise.  Yes, we also slaughter animals for food and yes, there are sometimes slaughterhouses with violations.  I think there's a difference between factory farming and ritualistic, mass slaughter of animals in the streets in the name of a religion - it is not a necessary thing.  

The sole basis of Islam is to get non-Muslims to submit to Muslim preferences - workplace and schools have to set aside time and rooms for a multitude of daily prayers, sexually segregating public places, burkas and niqabs, slaughtering animals in the streets, allowing multiple wives to collect welfare, turning aside and saying nothing when we see women being forced to wear burkas and not leave the house - we've accomodated it all, have we not?

What is the benefit to our society in accomodating these things?  And where does it end?  What is the fascination with Canada becoming like a ME country?  Why do we have to adopt Muslim ways?  Some here feel that we should accomodate everything Islam and tolerate/live with/shut up about anything we don't agree with.  

 

 

[DogOnPorch]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

You did exactly as predicted:  denied anything "good" about Islam.

  

Quote

Charity is a requirement, and for every Muslim I know, is applicable to Muslim and non-Muslim alike.
Loaning/borrowing money is highly frowned upon, and charging interest even more so.    
Taking care of one's family so the State doesn't have to, nor do they need to live on the street or in poverty.
For many (not me, specifically) the focus on family life as being the basis of society and most important element in any individual's life.
To protect human life, even the life of an enemy.
To show mercy to animals.
To allow others freedom to worship God in their own way.

I've shown you're either incorrect or applying values to Islam that are held by more than just Muslims...love of family....family values...and charity of all things.

And if you want a duel banking system where Muslims get to take advantage of interest free loans in one bank while also enjoying compound interest savings in another...get real.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

It wouldn't matter if I quoted verse after verse from the Quran or posted multiple hadiths...

  

 

That would be the day...wouldn't it? Show me where it says thou shalt not kill....

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

And if you want a duel banking system where Muslims get to take advantage of interest free loans in one bank while also enjoying compound interest savings in another...get real.

I've never understood that, either.  Paying interest is forbidden, but collecting it is fine.  Seems rather convenient to me.

[DogOnPorch]

4 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I've never understood that, either.  Paying interest is forbidden, but collecting it is fine.  Seems rather convenient to me.

 

Straight out of Medieval Usury Laws...frankly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba

Edited June 13, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[dialamah]

26 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Protect human life" - Yeah, no...I watched as an on-line group of Muslims tore an Israeli girl to shreds - yes, they absoutely DO think Jews are not human.  And not one of the 30 or so who piled on her, describing to her how she should die in the most revolting of terms, stopped their fellow Muslims from the attack. I saw exactly what they think of Jews and Westerners.  This is in Canada.

And when Iqra Khalid received thousands of threats of death and sexual violence did you conclude that mainstream Canadians agreed with this?  Or even mainstream Conservatives?   

Why would you choose this as representative of mainstream Islam and not that which has Muslims protecting or helping Jews, or even marrying one?  Because that also happens.

I bet if we could really access people's hearts and minds we'd find most of them somewhere between the two extremes of rabid and unreasoning hate and proactive acceptance or marriage. 

Your example of Muslims defrauding welfare for multiple wives, that charge has also been levelled against other religious groups.  However accurate these stories are, once again why would anyone take fraudsters as representing an entire group?

You appear to have been working with the most disadvantaged of Muslim people and have projected their behavior on to the rest of them.   That makes as much sense as working with battered women in the North and concluding that its a mainstream Canadian value to beat women.

As for what Muslims really think of Westerners, sometimes we get what we give.   Or perhaps we see what we expect to see.

[dialamah]

16 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

That would be the day...wouldn't it? Show me where it says thou shalt not kill....

Verse 5:32:  For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), but afterwards lo! Many of them become prodigals of the earth.”

I already know the argument you will use against this, and I remind you again that it doesn't matter what you claim, what matters is that this instruction is interpreted by most Muslims as being a prohibition against killing and a clear condemnation of terrorist acts.   Attempting to prove your meaning is the correct one seems rather silly since real Muslims reject your interpretation.  Except for ISIS and other extremists, of course.

[Argus]

What everyone seems to be ignoring over on the progressive side is that when it comes to the question of whether Muslims who believe in the niquab - and all that is associated with it - should be allowed to immigrate to Canada, we're talking about what is best for Canada, not for the Muslim in question.

Is it, in other words, better to bring over a niquab wearing Muslim woman from the middle east or, instead, say a British or French Christian woman. Personally, I go with the British or French woman. The government itself says Europeans are the most economically successful immigrants to Canada (people from the M.E. are the LEAST economically successful), their cultural values are similar to ours, and they are way less likely to bring over old-world hatreds and religious and sexual bigotry with them.

No one can challenge that statement, btw, not with any truth or logic.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Argus

[DogOnPorch]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Verse 5:32:  For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), but afterwards lo! Many of them become prodigals of the earth.”

I already know the argument you will use against this, and I remind you again that it doesn't matter what you claim, what matters is that this instruction is interpreted by most Muslims as being a prohibition against killing and a clear condemnation of terrorist acts.   Attempting to prove your meaning is the correct one seems rather silly since real Muslims reject your interpretation.  Except for ISIS and other extremists, of course.

Heheh...I knew you'd go for 5:32 without examining it carefully.

Quran 5:32 has two conditions that you hope to ignore...what are they?

...unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land...

...ah there they are.

So honour killing is okay. So is killing to punish corruption...aka fasad...which you also will ignore.

It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill" in the Quran...of course. Killing is okay under certain conditions. Like Infidels saying bad things about Islam...technically fasad.

[Goddess]

23 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

As for what Muslims really think of Westerners, sometimes we get what we give.   Or perhaps we see what we expect to see.

I can tell you this for sure - seeing those Muslims and reading what they wrote to that young Israeli girl was eye-opening for me.  I never expected to see that in Canada.

And yes, I have worked at places where I do not see people at their best - doctors, lawyers.  I accept that as part of my work and have been complimented many times on my patience and kindness in explaining the medical or legal system to people who are in pain, scared and don't know how things work.

I have been able to talk people down from these situations.  But not the Muslims - they invariably react violently when they are not given exactly what they want, at the exact time they want it, in the exact manner they want it.  I don't know if this is because they feel all Westerners are kafirs and treat us accordingly or it's because I'm a woman in a position of authority over them and they REALLY REALLY resent that.  I dont' really care what their reasons are for treating Westerners this way.  I'm just saying your synopsis of what mainstream Muslims believe is sorely lacking a dose of reality.

Yes, I am wary around them - when I have to tell them, "No, you're 4 hours late for your doctor's appointment and now you will have to re-book" I know it's going to be a bad time for me, I will be screamed at, bullied, have things thrown at me.  When I hand them free food tickets and they slap my hand because I dared to hand them to the woman and not the 6 year old boy, yes I'm wary of even being kind to them. 

Getting back to the OP - it's not the hijab itself that I don't care for - it's the attitudes that go with it. It's those attittudes that make them not very nice people to be around.

[dialamah]

Why is there Sharia in Isreal?

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/silly-american-fear-sharia-law-article-1.3229045

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Heheh...I knew you'd go for 5:32 without examining it carefully.

Quran 5:32 has two conditions that you hope to ignore...what are they?

...unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land...

...ah there they are.

So honour killing is okay. So is killing to punish corruption...aka fasad...which you also will ignore.

It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill" in the Quran...of course. Killing is okay under certain conditions. Like Infidels saying bad things about Islam...technically fasad.

Like I said, its entirely dependent on what the reader wants from it.

[hot enough]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

and they are way less likely to bring over old-world hatreds and religious and sexual bigotry with them.

John A McGenocide and his crew and offspring did a good job of bringing all those things to Canada and we see them manifested here daily.

[DogOnPorch]

35 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Like I said, its entirely dependent on what the reader wants from it.

 

Uh...no...it says what it says.

Murder is okay under two conditions: for honour and for causing corruption...fasad is the Arabic word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasad

Quote

 

Fasad (Arabic: فساد‎‎ /fasād/) is an Arabic word meaning rottenness, corruption, or depravity.[1] In an Islamic context it can refer to spreading mischief in a Muslim land,[2] moral corruption against God,[3] or disturbance of the public peace.[4]

The spread of fasad is a major theme in the Quran, and the notion is often contrasted with islah (setting things aright).[5] Classical Quranic commentators commonly interpreted "corruption in the land" as open disobedience against God or its result.[5] In certain contexts, classical jurists took it to refer to the legal category of Hirabah, comprising armed assault, rape and murder.[6] Some contemporary Muslims view destruction of the natural environment to be among the central meanings of verses referring to fasad.[5]

 

 

Edited June 13, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

28 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Why is there Sharia in Isreal?

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/silly-american-fear-sharia-law-article-1.3229045

 

You don't want Rabbinical Law deciding your fate, either. Two negatives do not equal a positive outside of mathematics. 

[WestCoastRunner]

Since this thread has deviated from the OP I will try and address the OP

I have no problem with admitting women to Canada who cover their faces for one simple reason. We are not controlled by the Taliban or Isis.  Once a woman arrives here who has been forced to cover up she may very well choose to discard the garment. The thing is that she has a choice in Canada. 

Personally I have a lot of emotions when I see a woman with her face covered. I want to sit down and have a discussion with her and try to understand her more but I would certainly not be afraid that she is covering up anything nefarious. 

I would hope that eventually she would come into her own after being held to a lesser standard than men in her home country. To judge or be afraid of her is simply ridiculous. 

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Since this thread has deviated from the OP I will try and address the OP

I have no problem with admitting women to Canada who cover their faces for one simple reason. We are not controlled by the Taliban or Isis.  Once a woman arrives here who has been forced to cover up she may very well choose to discard the garment. The thing is that she has a choice in Canada. 

Personally I have a lot of emotions when I see a woman with her face covered. I want to sit down and have a discussion with her and try to understand her more but I would certainly not be afraid that she is covering up anything nefarious. 

I would hope that eventually she would come into her own after being held to a lesser standard than men in her home country. To judge or be afraid of her is simply ridiculous. 

Women call the shots under Islam?

Good to know.

[WestCoastRunner]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

Women call the shots under Islam?

Good to know.

Women call the shots in Canada.  It's certainly a big adjustment for women to understand that coming from a male dominant culture but I have faith that women are strong enough to overcome and move forward. They are not children. You are insulting women to assume they cannot move forward. 

Just have a look at women seeking shelter in domestic violence cases against white men. They have the strength at some point to escape and it is no different for women escaping male dominated countries. 

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Women call the shots in Canada.  It's certainly a big adjustment for women to understand that coming from a male dominant culture but I have faith that women are strong enough to overcome and move forward. They are not children. You are insulting women to assume they cannot move forward. 

Just have a look at women seeking shelter in domestic violence cases against white men. They have the strength at some point to escape and it is no different for women escaping male dominated countries. 

 

Islam isn't a race or a skin colour. It is a religion like Christianity.

A Syrian refugee beat his wife for half an hour with a hockey stick. He said he didn't realize it was wrong and it was our fault for not telling him.

Good luck with befriending Islam...you'll need it.