The Ill feeling between left and right on immigration

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

No he was not. The Shah was put on the throne by Stalin. You're mixing-up Mossadeq with the Shah.

No, you're just deflecting but you keep forgetting how often you put your foot in your mouth.

 

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

 Islam is akin to Nazism...be open to it all you like.

Hyperbolic statements like that reaffirm the left's idea that such attitudes are just xenophobia.  I don't think so, but I would ask people to be specific about their concerns and how to address them.  That's the best way to put together a common response.

For example, most Canadians are ok with asking immigrants to accept 'Canadian values', as am I.  

[Argus]

Just now, dialamah said:

For themselves.  Not for everyone else.  There are Muslim-majority countries where Sharia law is only imposed on Muslims, and secular law is used for non-Muslims.   I've already posted about this, listing all the countries and the different ways in which Sharia has been implemented, but your Islamaphobia made it impossible for you to understand.  

If they want to retain a primitive, harshly misogynistic sense of values they should stay in their old countries. Canadians do not wish to import a set of wholesale laws which will help sustain them as separate non-Canadian Canadians. We've seen, or some of us have, what kowtowing to the demands of Muslims in the UK has done, with their Sharia laws their backed up by government enforcement.

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

There are multiple other threads on Islam to post on.

Where you'll also find multiple references to immigration and lefties and righties....as I've said before these threads are all interwoven into a wider bigger tapestry that no amount of fussing over individual threads will ever tease apart. Ever.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, eyeball said:

No, you're just deflecting but you keep forgetting how often you put your foot in your mouth.

 

 

I suppose I could start making-up history that meshes better with your world view rather than sticking to facts.

 

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

Hyperbolic statements like that reaffirm the left's idea that such attitudes are just xenophobia.  I don't think so, but I would ask people to be specific about their concerns and how to address them.  That's the best way to put together a common response.

For example, most Canadians are ok with asking immigrants to accept 'Canadian values', as am I.  

 

Fair enough: what's your favorite aspect of Islam? What is it bringing to my society that is positive?

[Argus]

8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Hyperbolic statements like that reaffirm the left's idea that such attitudes are just xenophobia.  I don't think so, but I would ask people to be specific about their concerns and how to address them.  That's the best way to put together a common response.

For example, most Canadians are ok with asking immigrants to accept 'Canadian values', as am I.  

Yes, polls have shown that most Canadians want value screening for immigrants. Why do you suppose the media and politicians are dead set against it, and target anyone who advocates for it as some kind of demented hatemonger?

My own feeling is that most of these people are liberals, and even the conservatives are afraid of being targeted as hatemongers by the media.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Argus

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

For themselves.  Not for everyone else.  There are Muslim-majority countries where Sharia law is only imposed on Muslims, and secular law is used for non-Muslims.   I've already posted about this, listing all the countries and the different ways in which Sharia has been implemented, but your Islamaphobia made it impossible for you to understand.  

Why do you support 2 sets of laws in Canada - one for Canadians and one for Muslims?

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

1) I definitely think they are. But this is the gist of the disagreement. I said earlier I would rather have 10,000 Christian Lebanese immigrants than 1,000 Muslim Lebanese immigrants.

2) Now I'm not a very religious man, so my preference here is basically the belief that the Christians will be much faster to assimilate, join our culture, rather than insist on retaining their old world values.

3) I would say the great majority of my non-economic concern with immigration is for this reason. And it is a reason I would say all conservatives share. As for liberals, I have to say, as a conservative, I find it bizarre that they show zero concern over the importation of hundreds of thousands of people who make our home-grown homophobes and sexists seem enlightened.

1) There are probably other factors though that are more significant than religion.

2) Maybe but it's entirely theoretical.

3) Again, how this would be a problem is theoretical.  The set of people who want to come to Canada is not the same as the set of people who would never live under Western laws.

But I am more interested in figuring out a way to discuss this in a productive way.  Hyperbolic statements such as DoP's basically disqualify you from the discussion IMO.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

Why do you support 2 sets of laws in Canada - one for Canadians and one for Muslims?

 

Islam/Sharia is superior....would be my conclusion.

[eyeball]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

I suppose I could start making-up history that meshes better with your world view rather than sticking to facts.

Maybe you should start making up history that meshes better with reality.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

1) Why do you suppose the media and politicians are dead set against it, and target anyone who advocates for it as some kind of demanded hatemonger?

2) My own feeling is that most of these people are liberals, and even the conservatives are afraid of being targeted as hatemongers by the media.

1) Some are and some aren't.  If we got down to the details and moved away from rhetoric we might have some success.

2) Hatemongering is good business these days, as it gets you attention.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, eyeball said:

Maybe you should start making up history that meshes better with reality.

 

Personal attacks are all you have.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

1) Some are and some aren't.  If we got down to the details and moved away from rhetoric we might have some success.

2) Hatemongering is good business these days, as it gets you attention.

 

Is Islam good?

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Personal attacks are all you have.

I'm sorry if facts hurt but that's reality for you.

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 Fair enough: what's your favorite aspect of Islam? What is it bringing to my society that is positive?

I don't think religion per se brings anything to my society but people always can.  The idea that religion is the only, or most important signifier in the character of a person is too simple ...

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't think religion per se brings anything to my society but people always can.  The idea that religion is the only, or most important signifier in the character of a person is too simple ...

 

Dodge.

[DogOnPorch]

So again: Is Islam good?

If yes...what?

If no...why are we allowing it to enter again?

[eyeball]

8 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Fair enough: what's your favorite aspect of Islam? What is it bringing to my society that is positive?

Speaking of staying on topic, Islam is not an immigrant.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, eyeball said:

Speaking of staying on topic, Islam is not an immigrant.

 

Islam spreads via Muslims...duh.

[Goddess]

Apologists for Islam may reluctantly admit that Islam has these beliefs of gender inequality, homophobia, blasphemy, etc. but keep trying to say that Muslims rarely act on these beliefs, so the beliefs are therefore benign.

But when I see the mass rapings that have gone on in Europe, where 2000 Muslim men decide to rape a woman for "fun", (And yes, I realize not all 2000 of them did the physical act of rape, but they were all aiding and abetting it, that's for sure) it seems to me that given the opportunity, most Muslims will quickly drop the charade of embracing Western values.

Now, those beliefs don't seem so benign......

[dialamah]

Just now, Goddess said:

Why do you support 2 sets of laws in Canada - one for Canadians and one for Muslims?

Where did I say that I supported two sets of laws?   Stating *what happens elsewhere* is not the same as saying "it should happen here as well*.

Anyway, we already allow other religious groups to administer certain matters according to their group's traditions rather than through Canadian legal systems.  This includes Jews and Catholics.  

Quote

 

Canon law differs from sharia and halakhah as it is a codification akin to civil law, while sharia and halakhah derive most of their laws from juristic precedent and reasoning by analogy, akin to common law. Unlike secular laws that govern public interactions, all are a personal code of living that adherents adopt as part of their faith. Further, these religious bodies all have courts or arbitration systems that adjudicate disputes using those laws. This differs from other religions or branches
of religions that may have rules or laws, but no adjudication system.

All function largely in private, although family law issues sometimes make news.

 

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

Dodge.

I think I answered it.  If you ask me what are the aspects of Judaism that are beneficial to us I can't answer that, however I do want good people.

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

So again: Is Islam good?

If yes...what?

If no...why are we allowing it to enter again?

Your question is ridiculously binary and wouldn't be applied to any other religion.

[DogOnPorch]

Just remember: Islam was created to stick it to the other religions...particularly the Jews...who denied Mohammad was the next Moses

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I think I answered it.  If you ask me what are the aspects of Judaism that are beneficial to us I can't answer that, however I do want good people.

Muslims bring Islam...Islam is a religion...not a skin colour. What aspects of Islam do you admire? Is Islam ultimately good? Am I getting Islam wrong? The Quran says that Muslims are to fight the unbeliever until only Islam remains. You don't take it at its own word, I gather?

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your question is ridiculously binary and wouldn't be applied to any other religion.

Dodge.

Edited April 24, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Apologists for Islam may reluctantly admit that Islam has these beliefs of gender inequality, homophobia, blasphemy, etc. but keep trying to say that Muslims rarely act on these beliefs, so the beliefs are therefore benign.

But when I see the mass rapings that have gone on in Europe, where 2000 Muslim men decide to rape a woman for "fun", (And yes, I realize not all 2000 of them did the physical act of rape, but they were all aiding and abetting it, that's for sure) it seems to me that given the opportunity, most Muslims will quickly drop the charade of embracing Western values.

Now, those beliefs don't seem so benign......

 

Think about that, for a minute:  2000 men involved in raping one woman - even if not all of them were physically involved.  Think about where the woman was, how many men might be in the immediate vicinity - able to see and hear, and how big an area wold be needed to fit 2000 men.  Imagine yourself at an event with 2000 people.  Do you know what the people even just a short distance away are actually doing?   Even if a woman was being raped in a crowd containing 2000 men, the likelihood that all 2000 knew what was happening and cheering on the rapists is ludicrous.

Although, I haven't heard the story:  was the woman perhaps in an arena and the 2000 men had actually shown up for that event?  If that's the case, I will be corrected as to the veracity of this claim.

In any case, rape is wrong whether it's one man, ten men, 100 men or 2000.