The Ill feeling between left and right on immigration

[blackbird]

31 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Just off the top of my head:  Belief in one true God, belief that their holy book is the word of God, belief that women submit to men, that women's role is nuturer and child raiser, that man's role is to support, direct and control women, belief that homosexuals are unacceptable to God, belief in charity and mercy, belief that they submit to earthly authorities, unless that means going against God's law, belief that God will take care of wrongdoers.  

Islam believes in Allah which is not the same god as the christian god.   In Christianity they believe in one God but God has three person Father, Son and Holy Ghost.  Islam rejects that and calls it three gods, although the bible teaches it is one God in three persons.

I am not sure the bible says that women's role is limited to nurturer and child raiser.  Possibly.   Christianity does say man direct and control women.  It says they must love wife as himself.

Christian bible condemns homosexuality, but doe not say the person is cannot come to God.  They can repent and believe.  Is there any similarity to that in Islam?  Don't think there is any way to repent and receive forgiveness for anything because there is no saviour.

Since there is no saviour and God is an impersonal god in Islam, there is not way to be sure of salvation.  There is no mediator between God and men in Islam.

In Islam one's works is what counts to try to get to heaven.  In christianity and the bilbe, salvation is entirely by faith which is a gift of God.

[SpankyMcFarland]

If you approach any debate in the right spirit you can discuss things amicably, almost (there are exceptions) irrespective of your beliefs.

Edited April 21, 2017 by SpankyMcFarland

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

For England, one place to start:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_martyrs_of_the_English_Reformation

Many of these people were hanged, drawn and quartered.

For Ireland, well, start anywhere. British policy was anti-Catholic from the Reformation on. The Reformation did come to all of Ireland and they had an established Anglican Church that Catholic farmers had to pay tithes to until 1871:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Church_Act_1869

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I will look at those links more closely later today.   I noticed the first link mentioned that the Pope had ordered Catholics not to obey the British authorities but to rebel.  So some of them were tried and executed for treason.  There is a memorial day called Guy Fox Day in which a number of Jesuits apparently planned to blow up the British parliament but it was caught at the last minute.  I believe they were executed for treason. 

[dialamah]

28 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Islam believes in Allah

Allah means God in Arabic. It's the same God as Christians and Jews worship, according to Muslims.  Thus Jews and Christians can also be accepted into Heaven; the three religions are all valid paths to God.

28 minutes ago, blackbird said:

In Christianity they believe in one God but God has three person Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Not all Christians believe in the Holy Ghost.  Most believe Jesus is the son of God; Muslims assign Jesus equal importance as Mohammed, but do not consider him God's son.

Muslims do not consider their relationship with God "impersonal".  The ones I talk to also don't seem to have much doubt about being saved, as long as they follow God's commands.

28 minutes ago, blackbird said:

christianity and the bilbe, salvation is entirely by faith which is a gift of God.

So a killer or homosexual who had faith would get into heaven along with the person who had attended Church and performed good works throughout their life?

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Allah means God in Arabic. It's the same God as Christians and Jews worship, according to Muslims.  Thus Jews and Christians can also be accepted into Heaven; the three religions are all valid paths to God.

Not all Christians believe in the Holy Ghost.  Most believe Jesus is the son of God; Muslims assign Jesus equal importance as Mohammed, but do not consider him God's son.

Muslims do not consider their relationship with God "impersonal".  The ones I talk to also don't seem to have much doubt about being saved, as long as they follow God's commands.

So a killer or homosexual who had faith would get into heaven along with the person who had attended Church and performed good works throughout their life?

Christian God has three persons in one God.  So can't be the same God as Allah.  Just saying he is the same doesn't make it so if he is different.

Christian God sent his Son to earth to die on the cross for sinners and was resurrected from the dead.  Islam rejects that.

Christian God is will to forgive and receive sinners.  Islam doesn't have anything about that.  Do not accept that all are sinners and in need of being born again.

Islam seems to be a violent God ordering people to do violent things in many places in the Quran.   Chistian God does not do that.

Islam has been spread by the sword of force through much of the middle east and world.  Christian God's message is spread by the written word or gospel.  God's love for man is emphasized.

A Killer or homosexual who repents and accepts Jesus Christ as his saviour would get into heaven.  King David had committed murder but was forgiven and saved.  The apostle Paul had christians put to death before he was converted and saved.   In the bible, good works is not what makes a person a christian.  Many non-christians do good works but only faith in Jesus as one's saviour and mediator will get one into heaven.  Islam has no similar saviour or doctrine.

[Argus]

14 hours ago, dialamah said:

Not surprisingly, that's not actually what he said.  His point was that both liberal and conservative are needed for a successful, fair and ordered society.   

Yes, that is what he actually said. He pointed out that you couldn't build great cities and empires without the other three social values which liberals largely discount or even oppose. He said you needed all five. In fact, since closed types (conservatives) possess all five of the social/moral values you really don't need liberals for much of anything. 

[Argus]

13 hours ago, dialamah said:

Depends on how much power the religion has within the society.  In closed Christian societies,

Nobody is arguing that Islam today is better than the Amish in terms of respecting individuality and the equality of religions and genders. The argument is that Islam is far, far, far, far worse at all of this than secular western societies like ours, and that given this we are endangering our societal structure and order by bringing in in masses of Muslims.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

14 hours ago, Bonam said:

Islam and Christianity are two sides of the same coin. 

If by that you mean a largely peaceful religion and a largely warlike religion, then I suppose you are correct.

Quote

The relevant difference today is that a huge portion of people who nominally call themselves Christians around the world are not very devout...

That is A difference, but not THE difference. You're leaving aside the fact that the Christian prophet Jesus Christ was an itinerant preacher and carpenter while the prophet for Islam was a bloody, brutal warlord. I mean honestly how could you not expect enormous differences in how the followers of a prophet (or the son of God, as Christians consider Jesus to be) behave given the enormous difference between the two. I know that progressive Islam supporters insists on trotting out nasty tales from Leviticus, but all that was from the Jewish pre-history of Christ. What you have to bear foremost in mind was that Jesus Christ preached peace, tolerance and forgiveness. Muhammad, meanwhile, was slaughtering people, beheading them, and taking their women and little girls as sex slaves.

Now Christian countries haven't always taken that love and forgiveness message to heart given the lack of sophistication of so many of those followers. But western society is considerably more sophisticated, and it is this we are measuring against an influx of believes in the absolute word of a cruel warrior prince determined to spread Islam by the sword and murder anyone who got in his way.

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Argus

[dialamah]

23 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Christian God has three persons in one God.  So can't be the same God as Allah.  Just saying he is the same doesn't make it so if he is different

This is your belief about the Christian God.  It is not universally shared by all Christians.  Saying "they are wrong and I'm right" isn't credible since you are all using the same book to prove your case.

32 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Islam has no similar saviour or doctrine.

Yet Islam accepts Christians and Jews into Heaven; they don't even have to convert according to my Muslim friends and relatives.  Although its better if they do for some reason.  Religious people make so little sense so much of the time.

Anyway I find your inability to accept any other than your own interpretation of God's word as valid too limiting for further discussion.  Not much interested in having to constantly remind you that there are a range of beliefs in Christianity, all supported by the Bible.

[Bonam]

11 minutes ago, Argus said:

That is A difference, but not THE difference. You're leaving aside the fact that the Christian prophet Jesus Christ was an itinerant preacher and carpenter while the prophet for Islam was a bloody, brutal warlord. I mean honestly how could you not expect enormous differences in how the followers of a prophet (or the son of God, as Christians consider Jesus to be) behave given the enormous difference between the two.

That is true. But I think the stories about a religion's central figure's lives and the contents of their holy books are mostly irrelevant. A religion is just another identity that people have, and one which lets figures in authority in that religion influence or manipulate them. This has been amply illustrated throughout history... all religions have had periods when they were twisted by evil men to inspire terrible deeds and times when they were used by better people to inspire good deeds. This is why I never bother getting into the pissing contests that occasionally happen here on bible vs quran quotes... they are totally meaningless, people don't follow books, they follow what other people tell them. 

Quote

Now Christian countries haven't always taken that love and forgiveness message to heart given the lack of sophistication of so many of those followers. But western society is considerably more sophisticated, and it is this we are measuring against an influx of believes in the absolute word of a cruel warrior prince determined to spread Islam by the sword and murder anyone who got in his way.

Western society is more sophisticated because it has mostly shrugged off the shackles of Christianity and embraced reason. Just as China is economically successful only because it has mostly shrugged off the shackles of communism and embraced a capitalist economy, even though it is still communist in name. When Christianity was as big a force in Western society as Islam still is in middle-eastern society, Christians were having the inquisition and the Caliphate was having its golden age. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Bonam

[Argus]

13 hours ago, dialamah said:

How many Europeans actually want to come to Canada?   Probably not enough to meet our needs for even maintaining, never mind growing our economy.   It seems people from India have more interest in coming to Canada, but again - are there enough to maintain/grow our economy?     

We don't know because the numbers that come depend entirely on how many visas are allotted to each individual visa processing centre. For example, for 2016, London was granted 12,322 visas. That means the absolute maximum number of immigrants Canada would accept from the UK, Ireland, Iceland, Denmark, Finland Norway and Sweden combined is 12,322.  Meanwhile, Beirut alone was given 18,967 visas to award. Both gave away 100% of the visas given them. Kyev, meanwhile, in Ukraine, where you'd probably find an awful lot of people wanting to emigrate, got 1,778. Paris (which handles France, Belgium, Spain, Algeria, and Portugal),  was given just over 8,000 visas to allot. Amman (jordan) was given over 10,000 to hand out. Rome (which includes Italy, Greece, Cyprus and Albania) was given 3,777, while Hong Kong was given 17,462.

Given the unemployment rate particularly for younger people is exceptionally high in many European countries I have no doubt we could get more than enough immigrants from there. (Youth unemployment rate in Italy 35%; Spain 42%: Greece 45%; Portugal 25%)

[DogOnPorch]

12 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

Yet Islam accepts Christians and Jews into Heaven; they don't even have to convert according to my Muslim friends and relatives.  Although its better if they do for some reason.  Religious people make so little sense so much of the time.

 

 

Uhhhh...no. But Islam does have taqiya and kitman for those unbelievers needing reassurances

[Argus]

13 hours ago, dialamah said:

Why wouldn't they be applying here rather than the States then? I haven't seen anything suggesting that we turn away Europeans or Indians in favor of Middle Eastern and African applicants.  Do we?

Yes. Clearly. If 100,000 people apply to immigrate to Canada from the UK, Ireland, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden and Finland combined we can only grant 12,322 permission to come here. The visa allocations for the middle east, Asia and Africa are much higher than for Europe. Nairobi was given 5346 visas for immigrants last year, which is more than Rome (3777) even though Rome is also the processing centre for other countries, including Greece.

[Argus]

13 hours ago, dialamah said:

No, they aren't.  Do you even know what Muslims believe?

He is correct and you are wrong.

[Argus]

13 hours ago, blackbird said:

But the Inquisition was a religious persecution, torture, and genocide on a large scale over a long period of time run out of the Holy Office in the Vatican.

Actually, its legend is greater than its deeds. The worst of the inquisitions, the Spanish inquisition, is believed to have executed between 3,000 and 5,000 people over the course of its existence. That's chump change compared to the many Muslim slaughters of infidels.

[Argus]

11 hours ago, Bonam said:

I don't know about actively "turning away" certain applicants for others, but we only let in a capped amount of immigrants.

The US visa office in New York was alloted a mere 70 visas in 2016. The one in Los Angeles was given 219. That does not mean that many people applied, but merely those were the maximum number of visas those offices were permitted to give out.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

If you approach any debate in the right spirit you can discuss things amicably, almost (there are exceptions) irrespective of your beliefs.

But if your beliefs are colored by your emotional social values and you believe what you want to believe then you will refuse to accept what the other person says. And most people fall into that category.

[Argus]

24 minutes ago, Bonam said:

That is true. But I think the stories about a religion's central figure's lives and the contents of their holy books are mostly irrelevant. A religion is just another identity that people have, and one which lets figures in authority in that religion influence or manipulate them.

There's some truth in that. But the problem is there are no real authority figures in Islam. Or rather, there are hundreds and thousands of them, all interpreting the Koran's demands as the verbatim word of God. No Catholic priest is going to call for the slaughter of Jews, say, or infidels, because he'd be fired by his Bishop. But you gets lots of Immans doing that. Even in Canada, since almost all Imams are from the middle east, we get nasty antisemitic sermons from many mosques.

24 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Western society is more sophisticated because it has mostly shrugged off the shackles of Christianity and embraced reason.

Well, not all of it. There's Texas and Kansas and other bible belt states. But I would wager you'd way rather like in Kansas than Cairo, and triply so if you were gay or a woman or a Jew.

 

[dialamah]

9 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Uhhhh...no. But Islam does have taqiya and kitman for those unbelievers needing reassurances

Not according to my Muslim brother in law and several Muslim friends I've asked.  According to them, you are wrong.  The enmity between Jews and Muslims seems to be political rather than religious.  Not that it makes Imams calling for death of Jews ok at all.

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Not according to my Muslim brother in law and several Muslim friends I've asked.  According to them, you are wrong.  The enmity between Jews and Muslims seems to be political rather than religious.  Not that it makes Imams calling for death of Jews ok at all.

And according to a Muslim patient we had, who was very brave to be honest with me while explaining why other Muslims were constantly lying to us at the clinic, you and your brother are wrong.  

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

And according to a Muslim patient we had, who was very brave to be honest with me while explaining why other Muslims were constantly lying to us at the clinic, you and your brother are wrong.  

Yup.  Many different beliefs out there.   I would say that my brother-in-law believes and practices what he tells me.  I have the same confidence in some others, and a couple of Muslim acquaintances who I do suspect are merely  mouthing the words.

I suppose the major difference between you and I is that I don't see a huge difference between us and them.  There are a range of behaviors within any large group.  My primary exposure to Muslims has consisted of educated and intelligent people, who are devout but not extreme in behavior or attitude.  

[blackbird]

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

This is your belief about the Christian God.  It is not universally shared by all Christians.  Saying "they are wrong and I'm right" isn't credible since you are all using the same book to prove your case.

Yet Islam accepts Christians and Jews into Heaven; they don't even have to convert according to my Muslim friends and relatives.  Although its better if they do for some reason.  Religious people make so little sense so much of the time.

Anyway I find your inability to accept any other than your own interpretation of God's word as valid too limiting for further discussion.  Not much interested in having to constantly remind you that there are a range of beliefs in Christianity, all supported by the Bible.

The third last verse in the Bible gives a warning.  "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book.  If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"  Revelation ch22:18  Clearly, the Quran is claiming to be an addition to the revelation from God,  but this verse in Revelation expressly forbids it.  The Bible was completed about the 1st century  or first one hundred years after Christ.  The verse says clearly no other revelation from God can be added to what is already written.  That means the Quran written 600 years later cannot be accepted as a revelation from God. That means only the Bible provides the only written revelation on how to get to heaven.  It also means the Bible provides the only description of God and revelation from God. 

Mohammed allegedly received his revelation to write the Quran from the angel Gabriel over a twenty year period.  But 600 years before this the Apostle Paul said "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him accursed."  Galatians ch1 vs 8   This verse clearly forbids anyone to accept any new message allegedly from God even if it comes from an angel. 

Moreover Jesus himself made it clear there is no salvation through any other way that through him.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6    

Edited April 21, 2017 by blackbird

[Goddess]

22 minutes ago, dialamah said:

My primary exposure to Muslims has consisted of educated and intelligent people, who are devout but not extreme in behavior or attitude.  

True, my primary exposure to Muslims has probably not been the more educated or progressive ones.  I have never doubted you that they are out there.....but I do doubt your assertion that the vast majority of them are tolerant and peaceful.  Not just because of my own experiences but because of everything that is going on with the religion lately.

Why can't we bring in more educated and progressive Muslims?  Why do we have to take all the ones who have values that are not just different from ours but outright hostile to our own values?

[dialamah]

17 minutes ago, Goddess said:

 

Why can't we bring in more educated and progressive Muslims?  Why do we have to take all the ones who have values that are not just different from ours but outright hostile to our own values?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/10888707/Ireland-leads-the-world-in-Islamic-values-as-Muslim-states-lag.html

 

 

[Goddess]

20 minutes ago, dialamah said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/10888707/Ireland-leads-the-world-in-Islamic-values-as-Muslim-states-lag.html

 

 

Interesting article.  I forwarded it to a friend in Ireland, waiting to hear her thoughts too

Why do they have to be called "Islamic" values?  Most of the values that religions say are exclusive to them, I feel really are not.  They are human values.  What makes "opportunity and justice" Islamic values and not Christian or human or Irish values?

Can we really say these are "Islamic" values when, as the article points out, the majority of Muslim countries do not value them?

Edited April 21, 2017 by Goddess