Trudeau invites refugees to Canada, taunts Trump

[Michael Hardner]

21 minutes ago, Argus said:

I did not say they were responsible. I said they were related.

And I didn't say you said they were responsible.    I did ask if they're related.

Yes, the 0.1% increase in the population due to these refugees has nothing to do with them and everything to do with capacity planning, costs and accountability of the healthcare system.  The system doesn't need a 0.1% funding increase specific to this, their existing growth planning should cover it.

And again... another bad conversation that focuses on the wrong things.

 

[Argus]

42 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

And I didn't say you said they were responsible.    I did ask if they're related.

Yes, the 0.1% increase in the population due to these refugees has nothing to do with them and everything to do with capacity planning, costs and accountability of the healthcare system.

Bringing in tens of thousands of refugees costs us billions of dollars each year. That's on top of the increase in health care services they will require. I wonder if, instead of doing that, we'd put those billions into the health care system, we might find some improvement. Instead of adding to the demand, do something to help expedite services... Is that such a shocking idea?

Hey! There's an idea! Spend money on Canada! I realize that won't go down as well at the UN as devoting $650 million to womens health initiatives in foreign countries, but still...

 

 

[?Impact]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

Bringing in tens of thousands of refugees costs us billions of dollars each year.

Unless you provide equally well defined numbers on how much revenue those thousands of refugees add to the economy, then your one sided equation is completely, 100% irrelevant. Next you should look at the investment that future generations will return since our economic model is built on population growth.

[Argus]

8 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Unless you provide equally well defined numbers on how much revenue those thousands of refugees add to the economy, then your one sided equation is completely, 100% irrelevant. Next you should look at the investment that future generations will return since our economic model is built on population growth.

How much do you think a bunch of farmers from rural Syria who don't speak English are adding to our economy? Hint: Increasing the need for government services and payouts does not add to the economy.

[capricorn]

10 minutes ago, Argus said:

How much do you think a bunch of farmers from rural Syria who don't speak English are adding to our economy? Hint: Increasing the need for government services and payouts does not add to the economy.

And then, to come is family reunification...mom, dad, grandma, grandpa etc...

[Michael Hardner]

40 minutes ago, Argus said:

1) Is that such a shocking idea?

2) Hey! There's an idea! Spend money on Canada! I realize that won't go down as well at the UN as devoting $650 million to womens health initiatives in foreign countries, but still...

 

 

1) No.

2) We're a rich country, getting richer every year.  Humanity and kindness would lead one to the conclusion that we should help out others.  There's no obligation to do that, but it's certainly part of my value set and likely many others'.

Now the discussion is improving - we are talking about values and money.  Better than tying a distantly-related refugee issue to healthcare as a specific item.  My learning from this: talking about refugees/immigration should include talking about money & values.

[?Impact]

27 minutes ago, Argus said:

How much do you think a bunch of farmers from rural Syria who don't speak English are adding to our economy?

That is not an answer. You are quick to come up with costs, but unwilling to substantiate them and unwilling to look at the other side.

[PIK]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

How much do you think a bunch of farmers from rural Syria who don't speak English are adding to our economy? Hint: Increasing the need for government services and payouts does not add to the economy.

And who pays for it, is the poor. The ones that are on waiting lists for social housing and other social programs get pushed to the back because the syrians are shot to the front of the line. But the people that make these decisions do not care ,because they are not the ones in the line up. And IMO most of these syrians will be living off of us for quite sometime. Time to go after the refugee makers.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) No.

2) We're a rich country, getting richer every year.  Humanity and kindness would lead one to the conclusion that we should help out others.  There's no obligation to do that, but it's certainly part of my value set and likely many others'.

Now the discussion is improving - we are talking about values and money.  Better than tying a distantly-related refugee issue to healthcare as a specific item.  My learning from this: talking about refugees/immigration should include talking about money & values.

Ooo, I like this! It's the classic case of the Left oozing sympathy for people and talking about how much more noble that is than talking about that crass (ick! Spit!) money thing!

But what you fail completely to understand is that I AM talking about values. My value says that you help your brother before you help strangers. My values say we spend that money to help Canadians in need of health care, to Canadians who are impoverished, not to help foreigners.

Rich and getting richer? Then how come there's a six hour wait at the emergency room to see a doctor? How come people have to wait months and months in pain to see a specialist or to get an operation or to get an MRI? How come there are sick people on cots in hospital hallways?

Is it all just because my taxes (53%) are too low?

[Argus]

2 hours ago, ?Impact said:

That is not an answer. You are quick to come up with costs, but unwilling to substantiate them and unwilling to look at the other side.

I have already substantiated them previously. The 'other side" is, granted, based on logic and common sense (as well as the Fraser report documenting how the inflow of low income, low skill people is costing all levels of government $30 billion per year). If I'm a high school dropout who doesn't speak English and has no job skills or connections, what are the odds I'm going to get a reasonably high paying job in this society? You really need documentary evidence that the chances are slim and none?

From media reports these Syrians are, for the most part, rural people with no money or connections. The ones that had money or connections went to Europe.  So I think I'm being fairly logical in suggesting not many are going to meet the low income cutoff rate for paying income tax.

[?Impact]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

Is it all just because my taxes (53%) are too low?

Nobody is paying 53% taxes.

[Argus]

Just now, ?Impact said:

Nobody is paying 53% taxes.

That is my tax rate, between federal and provincial taxes in Ontario. Now I grant you that doesn't mean I pay them 53% of my income in total. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure if I also add in my municipal taxes, and whatever I pay each hear in HST and gas taxes and other surcharges, it won't be far behind that.

[?Impact]

Just now, Argus said:

That is my tax rate,

Nobody has that tax rate either. You are only talking the tax rate on your income above $200k, and of course not allowing for other deductions. 

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

Ooo, I like this! It's the classic case of the Left...

But what you fail completely to understand is that I AM talking about values. My value says that you help your brother before you help strangers. My values say we spend that money to help Canadians in need of health care, to Canadians who are impoverished, not to help foreigners.

Rich and getting richer? Then how come there's a six hour wait at the emergency room to see a doctor? How come people have to wait months and months in pain to see a specialist or to get an operation or to get an MRI? How come there are sick people on cots in hospitaAl hallways?

Is it all just because my taxes (53%) are too low?

Can we not just have a discussion about policy without you retreating to easy labels ?  I'm a citizen, so unfortunately my opinion matters.  Your whole sentence on that is an ad hominem that reveals lack of argument.  You put that one FIRST, which is telling.

Your second point is that I should help my "brother" before a stranger.  This is also about values.  I am supposed to see somebody from BC as my "brother" versus somebody from Niagara Falls, NY, or Ethiopia I guess.  Maybe.  But if my brother needs $5, it's not to feed his family.  

Then you brought back healthcare capacity planning, which I don't want to talk about because it's not really related, as I said.

Are you in the highest bracket ?  What's the income level for that ?  If you're in the top income you could count your blessings and appreciate how hard the government works to help out people in your income bracket.

[Argus]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Can we not just have a discussion about policy without you retreating to easy labels ?  I'm a citizen, so unfortunately my opinion matters.  Your whole sentence on that is an ad hominem that reveals lack of argument.  You put that one FIRST, which is telling.

Sorry. Was I too blunt in my response to your passive aggressive ad hominem? Or did you not recognize that was what you were doing in implying that (unlike me) you and others like you had these values of kindness and humanity (which I clearly lack) and so didn't care about money so much as in helping the world?

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your second point is that I should help my "brother" before a stranger.  This is also about values.  I am supposed to see somebody from BC as my "brother" versus somebody from Niagara Falls, NY, or Ethiopia I guess.  Maybe.  But if my brother needs $5, it's not to feed his family.  

We're not giving $650 million to feed people in Ethiopia either. Nor are we spending billions on Syrian refugees to feed them. They were already being fed in the refugee camps.

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Then you brought back healthcare capacity planning, which I don't want to talk about because it's not really related, as I said.

It's not related? A lot of these people we're bringing over have very expensive health care needs which puts an additional strain on our already overburdened health care system.

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Are you in the highest bracket ?  What's the income level for that ?  If you're in the top income you could count your blessings and appreciate how hard the government works to help out people in your income bracket.

The government does, quite literally, nothing to help me out and never has. I've only been in the highest tax bracket for maybe four or five years or so and am trying to stuff as much of it into savings as I can to make up for the twenty years of very low earnings.

 

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, Argus said:

1) Sorry. Was I too blunt in my response to your passive aggressive ad hominem?  

2) We're not giving $650 million to feed people in Ethiopia either. Nor are we spending billions on Syrian refugees to feed them. They were already being fed in the refugee camps.

3) It's not related? A lot of these people we're bringing over have very expensive health care needs which puts an additional strain on our already overburdened health care system.

4) The government does, quite literally, nothing to help me out and never has. I've only been in the highest tax bracket for maybe four or five years or so and am trying to stuff as much of it into savings as I can to make up for the twenty years of very low earnings.

 

1) I just made a plea for humanity and charity.  You can just say 'no'.  I don't know why you need to do otherwise.  It's a money choice you laid out - and you're free to hang on to your money.  

2) Not sure what the point is.  I am not asking about foreign aid funding levels or allocation but ok.

3) Healthcare isn't a separate issue from general funding to bring refugees to Canada.  If Healthcare isn't well managed, or isn't managed to handle .1% fluctuation in demand on average then it's not well managed.  

4) Barack Obama addressed this.  The government most certainly helps you, that's a non-starter.  I was in the highest bracket pretty much my whole career, but I thought it was much lower than $200K so maybe it's wrong.  And if you're doing that well, why not share a little ?  It's good kharma.  You're a fan of taking care of your "brother" and care about Canada so why not ?  The government has driven wages down through economic policy, but you have been untouched by this so count your blessings and help the little refugee guy a little, it will make you feel good.

[dre]

On 1/28/2017 at 4:30 PM, DogOnPorch said:

 

You're free to both practice and support Islam.

And you're free to post moronic, and inane non sequiturs.

[Argus]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

1) I just made a plea for humanity and charity.  You can just say 'no'.  I don't know why you need to do otherwise.  It's a money choice you laid out - and you're free to hang on to your money.  

See, you're doing it again. You're pretending to a higher order of morality and decency because I look at money as the lifeblood of everything this country is and does - including health care, education, pensions, etc., and don't want it spilled for the benefit of foreigners when we still need it. You aren't kinder than me you're just more short-sighted than me.

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

2) Not sure what the point is.  I am not asking about foreign aid funding levels or allocation but ok.

The billions that are going to pay the upkeep on the tens of thousands of refugees isn't coming from foreign aid, it's being paid by the provinces in the form of stretching out the resources for health care, education, social housing, welfare, etc.

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

3) Healthcare isn't a separate issue from general funding to bring refugees to Canada.  If Healthcare isn't well managed, or isn't managed to handle .1% fluctuation in demand on average then it's not well managed.  

It's more like 1% than .1% given that the refugee numbers add up year by year. And given they spent their lives without health care their needs are probably much higher and more expensive than that of most Canadians too.

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

4) Barack Obama addressed this.  The government most certainly helps you, that's a non-starter.  I was in the highest bracket pretty much my whole career, but I thought it was much lower than $200K so maybe it's wrong.  And if you're doing that well, why not share a little ?  It's good kharma.  You're a fan of taking care of your "brother" and care about Canada so why not ?  The government has driven wages down through economic policy, but you have been untouched by this so count your blessings and help the little refugee guy a little, it will make you feel good.

I was never a fan of Obama, and I already share plenty, especially since both levels of government keep applying more and more hits on my income to ensure I do so.

Maybe your attitude of not caring about money comes from you being 'comfortable' all your life. Those of us who weren't value it more.

 

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

1) You're pretending to a higher order of morality and decency because I look at money as the lifeblood of everything this country is and does - including health care, education, pensions, etc., and don't want it spilled for the benefit of foreigners when we still need it. You aren't kinder than me you're just more short-sighted than me.

2) The billions that are going to pay the upkeep on the tens of thousands of refugees isn't coming from foreign aid, it's being paid by the provinces in the form of stretching out the resources for health care, education, social housing, welfare, etc.

3) It's more like 1% than .1% given that the refugee numbers add up year by year. And given they spent their lives without health care their needs are probably much higher and more expensive than that of most Canadians too.

4) I was never a fan of Obama, and I already share plenty, especially since both levels of government keep applying more and more hits on my income to ensure I do so.

5) Maybe your attitude of not caring about money comes from you being 'comfortable' all your life. Those of us who weren't value it more.

 

1) ?  I don't care what you do with your money, and for all I know you stuff it in the bras of every welfare stripper you can find.  Good for you.  I care about our money - yours and mine.  If you want to start a thread on why helping refugees actually hurts them go ahead.  My only tool to get you to pay for the destitute is to appeal to your charity.  If you don't have charity, then that's your business.  I don't think less of you (everyone could give more) so stop feeling guilty.  

2) Ok

3) After a few years, they aren't refugees anymore.  They are certainly productive taxpayers before the 35K Syrians will become 350K. 

4) Ok.  

5) You're probably right.  It's an old trope that people who had hardscrabble lives turn miserly when they get wealthy.   Curse of the middle class for me, I guess.

 

[dialamah]

58 minutes ago, Argus said:

Maybe your attitude of not caring about money comes from you being 'comfortable' all your life. Those of us who weren't value it more.

 

 

That's funny.   According to the definition of "Middle Class", I've been beneath that threshold for my entire life.   I feel like I'm always struggling, but my life is still so much better than many others.   I don't even care if I pay more taxes if I know that money was going to help people who remain less fortunate than me.  It really bugs when my taxes go to pay huge bonuses and pensions to politicians, senators or to give tax breaks to organizations who are making record profits or individuals who make hundreds of thousands or more a year.   

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's an old trope that people who had hardscrabble lives turn miserly when they get wealthy

Too bad every wealthy person who complains about 'too much tax' and says 'why should I help people who didn't do as well as I'  couldn't be transferred directly into the lives of some of the people they deem undeserving of help from the rest of us.

[Argus]

20 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) ?  I don't care what you do with your money, and for all I know you stuff it in the bras of every welfare stripper you can find.  Good for you.  I care about our money - yours and mine.  If you want to start a thread on why helping refugees actually hurts them go ahead.  My only tool to get you to pay for the destitute is to appeal to your charity.  If you don't have charity, then that's your business.  I don't think less of you (everyone could give more) so stop feeling guilty.  

This is more of your passive aggressive insults. You think you're more noble because you don't pause to consider how much anything costs. You're not. You think I lack your charity and must feel guilty over it. I don't. I simply think your political views are shallow and focused on the emotional short term appeal of 'helping people' and never pause to expand beyond that into the cost, because you don't see caring about cost as worthy of your nobility. And if it was your money you'd be right. But you're volunteering other people's money. And cost comes in the form of depriving other Canadians of services they would otherwise enjoy.

Money matters. Every dollar you spend on one thing means a dollar not available for something else. Not enough money means people die from health care which isn't as good as it could be. Lack of money means highways and bridges in poor condition, which causes deaths, and slows down traffic and damages the economy. Lack of money means poorer pensions for our elderly, and not enough support for them. But you and others don't give that the slightest attention because to you, money is always available in abundance. Not enough? Hey, just borrow more or raise taxes! Problem solved!

20 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

3) After a few years, they aren't refugees anymore.  They are certainly productive taxpayers before the 35K Syrians will become 350K. 

Says who? Almost half the population aren't productive taxpayers. We know that since they pay virtually no income tax (top 50% of income earners contribute 96% of income taxes). What makes you think these Syrian farmers are going to be productive taxpayers? Are they suddenly going to get high paid jobs on Bay Street? Maybe Trudeau will put them all into his cabinet?

[?Impact]

19 minutes ago, Argus said:

 Almost half the population aren't productive taxpayers. We know that since they pay virtually no income tax (top 50% of income earners contribute 96% of income taxes).

Yes, instead of going to school the young should be out digging ditches in order to be 'productive'. The seniors should get off their lazy butts as well. We continually get this crap about 50% but you totally ignore reality.

[Michael Hardner]

58 minutes ago, Argus said:

1) This is more of your passive aggressive insults. You think you're more noble because you don't pause to consider how much anything costs. You're not. You think I lack your charity and must feel guilty over it. I don't. I simply think your political views are shallow and focused on the emotional short term appeal of 'helping people' and never pause to expand beyond that into the cost, because you don't see caring about cost as worthy of your nobility. And if it was your money you'd be right. But you're volunteering other people's money. And cost comes in the form of depriving other Canadians of services they would otherwise enjoy.

2) Money matters. Every dollar you spend on one thing means a dollar not available for something else. Not enough money means people die from health care which isn't as good as it could be. Lack of money means highways and bridges in poor condition, which causes deaths, and slows down traffic and damages the economy. Lack of money means poorer pensions for our elderly, and not enough support for them. But you and others don't give that the slightest attention because to you, money is always available in abundance. Not enough? Hey, just borrow more or raise taxes! Problem solved!

3) Says who? Almost half the population aren't productive taxpayers. We know that since they pay virtually no income tax (top 50% of income earners contribute 96% of income taxes). What makes you think these Syrian farmers are going to be productive taxpayers? Are they suddenly going to get high paid jobs on Bay Street? Maybe Trudeau will put them all into his cabinet?

1) Ok.  Thanks for your opinion on me.  

2) This is true, but it doesn't preclude allocation of resources to a myriad of worthy uses.  

3)  I think it stands to reason that by the time a refugee group increases tenfold (!) there will be a core of productive taxpayers in there.  I know you'll come back and say that immigrants don't do as well as longstanding Canadians but we're talking long term.

I'll reiterate that this is a question about us agreeing on a $ figure for a particular charity.  What % of your taxes are you willing to allocate to helping refugees ?  We can take all of the emotion and passive-aggressivity out of it if you just give a number.

[PIK]

We would be better off spending the money over there. There should be UN safe zones that are run by the UN, with a sizable military force to protect them and feed them till times are better. I would imagine a lot of refugees would love to be closer to home. Right now they seems to be no end in sight, so do we just keep bringing them in till we are full and civil war breaks out?? Time to shut down the refugee makers once and for all. 

[scribblet]

Liberals are as usual putting their own interests ahead of the country by not acting on our border problem which is likely to grow exponentially when the warm weather arrives.

 

M

ost of these migrants are not refugees as they are leaving from various countries, flying into the U.S. then taking a bus or taxi which lets them off near our border.  They are not exactly the wretched and the poor.    Canada - milk it honey !