Hazing tradition banned by the MLB

[Boges]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/18266346/new-mlb-rookie-hazing-rules-ban-dressing-women-offensive-costumes

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NEW YORK -- That baseball hazing ritual of dressing rookies as Wonder Woman, Hooters Girls and Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders is now banned.

Major League Baseball created an Anti-Hazing and Anti-Bullying Policy that covers the practice. As part of the sport's new labor deal, set to be ratified by both sides Tuesday, the players' association agreed to not contest it.

The policy, obtained by The Associated Press, prohibits teams from "requiring, coercing or encouraging" players to engage in activities that include "dressing up as women or wearing costumes that may be offensive to individuals based on their race, sex, nationality, age, sexual orientation, gender identity or other characteristic."

 

It might surprise some, because of my posts about hating Political Correctness and the whole "Safe Space" nature of Post-Secondary education. But I'm 100% Anti-Hazing and Initiation. 

It's always protected by the caveat of "Good Fun" or that it "Builds Comradery". But ultimately, anytime a group of established people force newcomers to demean themselves in whatever manor, it's wrong and should be banned. It doesn't have to be forced physically but if an organization allows it's employees to ostracize other people who work for the same company because they refuse to participate in any Initiation or Hazing practices, IT'S WRONG!!!

It doesn't have to do with being manly or something macho? These are pro athletes, they're all manly and macho. It's about subjugating people and making them feel like lesser participants in the organization. Anyone who supports such activities show a lesser ethnical code IMHO. 

 

[eyeball]

Would this hazing and initiation include shackling a 50lb cannonball and chain to the ankle of soon-to-be-groom at their stag party?  I know my wife felt a little insulted at the implication, but she was probably feeling a little retaliatory in light of the  broken toe I got when one of my homies dropped the cannonball on my foot.

Edited December 14, 2016 by eyeball

[Boges]

4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Would this hazing and initiation include shackling a 50lb cannonball and chain to the ankle of soon-to-be-groom at their stag party?  I know my wife felt a little insulted at the implication, but she was probably feeling a little retaliatory in light of the  broken toe I got when one of my homies dropped the cannonball on my foot.

I suppose, but they are buying you drinks right? 

[eyeball]

Yes, and this points to the voluntary aspect to a lot of hazing that occurs. I was pretty sure what I was in for and went anyway.  I've seen this on the deck of some boats too where a new guy eats a pulsating fish heart or something. Even when I stepped aboard a new boat as a skipper it was important to be seen as one the guys, especially when you're working in harsh or dangerous conditions and we need to watch out for one another and know we're likewise being watched out for.

[Boges]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yes, and this points to the voluntary aspect to a lot of hazing that occurs. I was pretty sure what I was in for and went anyway.  I've seen this on the deck of some boats too where a new guy eats a pulsating fish heart or something. Even when I stepped aboard a new boat as a skipper it was important to be seen as one the guys, especially when you're working in harsh or dangerous conditions and we need to watch out for one another and know we're likewise being watched out for.

That's awful. Do something you don't want to do or your co-workers are going to let you die. 

Premise of A Few Good Men. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Boges

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, Boges said:

That's awful. Do something you don't want to do or your co-workers are going to let you die. 

Premise of A Few Good Men. 

It was a one off in my case and again I knew what I'd be getting into so...it did taste pretty awful I admit.

I could have just as easily fired the crew and brought my own, the owner gave me that option, but I thought that would have been more awful.

Edited December 14, 2016 by eyeball

[Boges]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

It was a one off in my case and again I knew what I'd be getting into so...it did taste pretty awful I admit.

I could have just as easily fired the crew and brought my own, the owner gave me that option, but I thought was more awful.

I wouldn't have if they liked to haze people. Eff your livelihood, you're awful people.  

Edited December 14, 2016 by Boges

[eyeball]

I think you're reading way too much vindictiveness into this.

[Boges]

Just now, eyeball said:

I think you're reading way too much vindictiveness into this.

Then what's the point of it? 

Is it honestly masculine to force people to embarrass themselves to fit in? The idea of a brotherhood should be brought about by shared experiences in doing the job they're tasked to do, not some painful or humiliating ritual that has nothing to do with what's being asked of them. 

It's bullying plain and simple. 

[eyeball]

15 minutes ago, Boges said:

Then what's the point of it? Is it honestly masculine to force people to embarrass themselves to fit in?

Not when there is that voluntary aspect to it, no.

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The idea of a brotherhood should be brought about by shared experiences in doing the job they're tasked to do, not some painful or humiliating ritual that has nothing to do with what's being asked of them. 

It's bullying plain and simple.

 

Well when its painful and humiliating sure, but that's clearly not always the case and I guess this is where PC deserves a more skeptical approach than to just assume or imagine the worst.

[Boges]

10 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Not when there is that voluntary aspect to it, no.

Ultimately everything is voluntary. But if you're seen as less of a team player for refusing, that's where the problem exists. People in charge shouldn't allow newcomers to feel compelled to do something. . . because brotherhood. 

 

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Well when its painful and humiliating sure, but that's clearly not always the case and I guess this is where PC deserves a more skeptical approach than to just assume or imagine the worst.

Humiliating is subjective right?

A Few Good Men isn't about hazing exactly, but it's about a structure where someone who didn't fit in was rejected and ultimately killed. If a person can do their job, as expected, their participation in such "traditions" should not ever play into things. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Boges

[Moonlight Graham]

They aren't banning hazing.  The article title says "New MLB hazing rules ban dressing as women, offensive costumes".

The biggest controversy here is that often the rookies would have to dress up like women or cheerleaders etc. as a form of humiliation.  I never heard an outcry about this before, but the MLB i think is trying to prevent of any potential people being "offended" by this, saying it's offensive to trans people or other LGBT+ folks.  The MLB has the whole Cleveland Indians racist emblem thing.  But having macho jocks dressing up as women?  C'mon gimme a break it's all in good fun.

[Boges]

6 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

 C'mon gimme a break it's all in good fun.

Not if you're compelled to participate. 

[eyeball]

54 minutes ago, Boges said:

That's awful. Do something you don't want to do or your co-workers are going to let you die. 

Premise of A Few Good Men. 

I guess this is where the silliness of PC starts asserting itself and biting on an issue like an abused pit-bull.  Nobody would have let me die and nobody forced me yet here you are condemning an entire industry and comparing it to a situation in which  people were ordered to do something that resulted in their death.   This is precisely how PC loses it and runs amok and yes it is very surprising to see it manifesting in someone with such a professed hate on for it.

How much longer until you're calling for legislation to correct this horrible social ill wherever and however it rears its incorrect head?

And what about the poor fish that gave its heart and soul to this travesty?

[Boges]

5 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I guess this is where the silliness of PC starts asserting itself and biting on an issue like an abused pit-bull.  Nobody would have let me die and nobody forced me yet here you are condemning an entire industry and comparing it to a situation in which  people were ordered to do something that resulted in their death.   This is precisely how PC loses it and runs amok and yes it is very surprising to see it manifesting in someone with such a professed hate on for it.

How much longer until you're calling for legislation to correct this horrible social ill wherever and however it rears its incorrect head?

And what about the poor fish that gave its heart and soul to this travesty?

The aspect of Political Correctness I don't like is idea that someone's opinions and speech needs to be shut down because someone may be hurt or offended by it. You shouldn't have to shelter people from unpleasant things.  But you also shouldn't have to endure unrelated unpleasant things in order to do something you love to do. 

Regarding Hazing, you're being compelled to do something you may not want to do that has nothing to do with the task you're being asked to perform. (Sports, Military, Office Job, Fishing Vessel) It's about conformity. You see this kind of philosophy in Unions. We are all a collective so we all have to fall in line on all issues or you get black balled, even if it has nothing to do with your performance on the job. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Boges

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, Boges said:

The aspect of Political Correctness I don't like is idea that someone's opinions and speech needs to be shut down because someone may be hurt or offended by it. 

You seem offended at the suggestion that some hazing is desired by the people being hazed. You can't get your head around this and can't let it go.

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Regarding Hazing, you're being compelled to do something you may not want to do that has nothing to do with the task you're being asked to perform. (Sports, Military, Office Job, Fishing Vessel) It's about conformity. You see this kind of philosophy in Unions. We are all a collective so we all have to fall in line on all issues or you get black balled, even if it has nothing to do with your performance on the job.

Well, when it's overtly forced on you it's wrong. When its not its not. Your choice to view this as simple black and white issue reminds me of the view that all substance use is abuse regardless of all the varying degrees that fall in between.

[Boges]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You seem offended at the suggestion that some hazing is desired by the people being hazed. You can't get your head around this and can't let it go.

I do think when it's desired by the "hazed" it's done so because they can do it to other people the next time. Which I find equally as troubling.

I just find the practice pointless at best and super damaging at worst.

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Well, when it's overtly forced on you it's wrong. When its not its not. Your choice to view this as simple black and white issue reminds me of the view that all substance use is abuse regardless of all the varying degrees that fall in between.

I'm not saying it's black and white, I'm sure some people will gladly humiliate themselves so they can fit in. I might also consider that person a Lemming, but whatever. 

I question the judgement and ethics of anyone who thinks that humiliating someone that's in an inferior position is good for the collective.

I would assume your bachleor party example was amongst people who were already in a tight brotherhood and they were in a celebratory mood. Hazing is not that. 

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, Boges said:

I do think when it's desired by the "hazed" it's done so because they can do it to other people the next time. Which I find equally as troubling.

Well, I can say from experience that this thought didn't cross my mind at all.  Were you hazed or initiated at some point in your life and what was your experience like?

 

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I'm not saying it's black and white, I'm sure some people will gladly humiliate themselves so they can fit in. I might also consider that person a Lemming, but whatever. 

I question the judgement and ethics of anyone who thinks that humiliating someone that's in an inferior position is good for the collective.

I would assume your bachleor party example was amongst people who were already in a tight brotherhood and they were in a celebratory mood. Hazing is not that.

 

A stag party can sure fall on a slippery slope and easily cross a line, especially considering the alcohol factor.  I question the sensitivity of someone who continually uses the word humiliation in all cases.  Again, I was the skipper on the vessel I mentioned and definitely not in a inferior position - I didn't have to submit to anything, I simply chose to go along with the tradition on that particular boat with that particular crew.   

[Boges]

18 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Well, I can say from experience that this thought didn't cross my mind at all.  Were you hazed or initiated at some point in your life and what was your experience like?

My experiences were in Grade 9. First the initiations that often happen to newcomers to the school. My circle of friends actually avoided initiation because we travelled in packs, but it didn't mean the ordeal wasn't terrifying.

And second, as part of the Football team, players were subject to random wedgies. You could call that assault but I think people who support hazing don't often appreciate that there's a fine line between acts of physical abuse and mental abuse. Had I reported the "Hazing" I'd have been seen as a snitch and only made the problem worse. 

Now as a teenager, I didn't have the perspective I do now. No one can force me to do anything, And being 6'3, no one can physically force me to do anything either, but I'm an adult. I feel bad for young people that may feel like I did in that environment. 

Hazing is just another form of bullying. And only those in power think it's good fun. 

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Again, I was the skipper on the vessel I mentioned and definitely not in a inferior position - I didn't have to submit to anything, I simply chose to go along with the tradition on that particular boat with that particular crew.   

I can't speak to your motivation. How was it suggested that you do that? "Hey boss, gotta do this or the guys won't respect you". I would find that problematic, but I've never been on the crew of a boat.  

Edited December 14, 2016 by Boges

[?Impact]

I was watching a documentary about British submarines the other day, and when a new sailor earns his dolphins they are placed in a glass of rum which he is to drink down and then filter them out with his teeth. In some ways this is also hazing, and equally troubling because of the abuse of alcohol. I have no problem with responsible drinking, I do so myself. I am however concerned when someone is coerced into it. I was happy to hear the commander say the drinking was voluntary, although none of the recruits turned it down. There would be a certain level of peer-pressure that the recruit would feel, regardless of what the captain said.

When welcoming someone into a new group, we should go out of our way to welcome them and not make them pass some irrelevant test in order to debase them because of some dumb ritual. Yes, there may be competition to get into the group based on knowledge or physical skills or whatever is relevant but that is about meeting the requirements of the group. A team is a group of individuals supporting each other to do better, and hazing is the exact opposite. Those who say you are not a team player if you don't participate are lying, they are the ones that are not the team players.

Edited December 14, 2016 by ?Impact

[Wilber]

I don't have a problem with hazing up to a point, it is part of team building. It's not demeaning because every other member of your team has undergone it and you don't really get to be part of a team until you are an equal member. Part of being a team is shared experiences that make you different from non team members.

It shouldn't put someone in physical danger which could cover a lot of things. Downing a large quantity of alcohol in one go could come under that definition.

I don't see having to dress up as a girl to be particularly demeaning, I have seen guys do it on a bet.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Boges said:

I can't speak to your motivation. How was it suggested that you do that? "Hey boss, gotta do this or the guys won't respect you". I would find that problematic, but I've never been on the crew of a boat.  

No, it was more a matter of paying homage to the fishing gods...bringing good luck.... I suppose that sounds funny coming from a guy who's been going on about micro-delusions, especially around a boat.  It really was more in fun than anything and if I gave you the sense it had more to do with coerced camaraderie it was a mistake to have done so.

I will add I enjoyed nothing better than whistling in the wheelhouse whilst heading out to sea on a Friday especially eating a banana - made the crew nervous as hell - go eat a pulsating heart to keep the mojo up if you're worried about it I'd say.  My way of hazing back I guess. When you're the skipper you get to haze all day long.

It's pretty clear to see the differences between your experiences and mine are like the difference between night and day. Its also clear to see why your feelings run as strongly as they do, I wasn't having a whole lot of fun in high school either so I quit and moved to a little logging town on the coast and joined a yarding-crew.  Now those guys knew how to haze except they called it breaking-in-the-new-guy.  I thought I was going to die. Of course showing up to work with a pony-tail half-way down to my ass probably didn't help. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by eyeball

[?Impact]

36 minutes ago, Wilber said:

I don't have a problem with hazing up to a point, it is part of team building. It's not demeaning because every other member of your team has undergone it and you don't really get to be part of a team until you are an equal member. Part of being a team is shared experiences that make you different from non team members.

If it's a drinking team, then yes down some alcohol. If it's a transvestite team then bring out the stilettos. A sports team however bonds about their sport.

[Wilber]

1 minute ago, ?Impact said:

If it's a drinking team, then yes down some alcohol. If it's a transvestite team then bring out the stilettos. A sports team however bonds about their sport.

Not really.  A bunch of people playing a sport together can be just that, it doesn't automatically make them a team. Dressing up is being something you aren't. Ban costume parties and cross dressers, they are demeaning themselves. Alcohol poisoning is a possibility for anyone when it gets carried away and I don't think it should be part of an initiation.

Should the line crossing ceremony where polliwogs are initiated on their first shipborne equator crossing also be banned? How PC do you want to get? People sure are getting thin skinned.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Wilber said:

...Should the line crossing ceremony where polliwogs are initiated on their first shipborne equator crossing also be banned? How PC do you want to get? People sure are getting thin skinned.

 

That would be a pity....such ceremonies and traditions are great for crew morale.   Service records are updated with shellback, golden shellback, or bluenose certificates.   I fondly remember having to remove a cherry from the navel of a machinist mate's huge belly covered in chocolate syrup...with only my tongue (sitting on a block of ice wearing a jock strap).  Still have the Polaroid picture !