Flag burning

[Topaz]

Let me ask of those who agree to burning ones flag and let debate the US. So if its okay to burn the flag to protest then is it okay to burn the White House which is on the same respectability as the flag.  A person who doesn't like something with the government  can burn the flag and then why not the White House or any government building?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Topaz said:

Let me ask of those who agree to burning ones flag and let debate the US. So if its okay to burn the flag to protest then is it okay to burn the White House which is on the same respectability as the flag.  A person who doesn't like something with the government  can burn the flag and then why not the White House or any government building?

Or the President?

[Topaz]

Well. they have done that many times haven't they?

[Boges]

13 hours ago, BubberMiley said:

Freedom of expression is guaranteed by the Constitution. The Supreme Court has already ruled on this issue.  It's over. Evidentally the poorly informed president-elect missed his Grade 10 Civics class so he wasn't aware, but I think there is going to be a lot of that.

When Justice Sarah Palin gets confirmed to the Supreme Court, that'll change. 

[kimmy]

20 minutes ago, Topaz said:

Let me ask of those who agree to burning ones flag and let debate the US. So if its okay to burn the flag to protest then is it okay to burn the White House which is on the same respectability as the flag.  A person who doesn't like something with the government  can burn the flag and then why not the White House or any government building?

Because buildings are other peoples' property.  Because arson puts people and property at risk. Your freedom to express yourself does not include the freedom to commit crime in the name of expressing yourself.  This is not complicated.

If I burn my own flag, that's me expressing my opinion.  If I burn your flag, then I'm guilty of ruining your stuff, but not of flag-burning.  If I broke into the 9/11 Museum and burned the 9/11 flag, then I'm guilty of a long list of crimes, but flag-burning isn't one of them.

 -k

[cybercoma]

14 hours ago, Topaz said:

do u think ANY country should allow this to happen? 

Not only should no country allow this to happen, but people should regular be tested for their love of country and there should also be a paramilitary squad that monitors everyone to be sure that they're not lying on the test. If anyone is found to have an insufficient "love for their country" they should be publicly executed to set an example to others. The executions should be sufficiently violent, so not something mundane like hanging. Perhaps stoning.

[cybercoma]

9 hours ago, Altai said:

Such behaviors like as burning flags or burning someone's posters or insulting people is an outburst of violence impulses within someone and give us signals that these persons are prone to commit crimes if they would have a chance. It should not be allowed. 

Exactly! Ever see Minority Report? That movie was the vision of the perfect utopian society. We should rely on big data, demand that Facebook, Google, banks, cable companies, loyalty cards, etc. all turn over their data on people. We could then use algorithms to determine someone's likeliness to commit a crime and if they pass a certain threshold, one that's pretty low if we want the perfect society, they should be executed publicly to send a message to others. It should be sufficiently violent too. Not something mundane like a hanging. Perhaps stoning.

[kimmy]

When Tea Partyists talk about loving the Constitution, they generally mean the 2nd amendment, not the whole thing.

In Trump's case, I suspect he's partial to the 5th as well.

 

Why is Trump blathering about flag-burning right now?  Has there been an outbreak of flag burnings of late? Is he trying to provoke his critics into burning flags in response?  Is he trying to distract from other issues by tweeting some outrageous crap?

 -k

[cybercoma]

4 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Your freedom to express yourself does not include the freedom to commit crime in the name of expressing yourself.

So Rosa Parks and all the other African Americans who refused to follow Jim Crow laws were wrong? They were committing crimes.

[cybercoma]

1 minute ago, kimmy said:

Has there been an outbreak of flag burnings of late? Is he trying to provoke his critics into burning flags in response? 

People should burn the Confederate Flag in response. That ought to wind up the human garbage that are amongst his supporters.

[kimmy]

1 minute ago, cybercoma said:

So Rosa Parks and all the other African Americans who refused to follow Jim Crow laws were wrong? They were committing crimes.

That's precisely the point.  That's how laws banning the burning of the flag were struck down in the first place. Likewise, Rosa Parks wasn't just out shopping that day, she went there with the full intention of getting arrested and put on trial.

 -k

[drummindiver]

Don't know about burning,  but the OPP arrested people in Caledonia for tryING to raise a Canadian flag.

[Argus]

9 hours ago, Altai said:

If you do that in my country, you will be sentenced. If you try to climp a flagpole to down a Turkish flag, you will be shot in the head.

Yes, but the United States is a country of laws, independent courts and freedom, unlike your country.

[Moonlight Graham]

16 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Section 1 of the charter should be abolished. The preamble as well as section 15 subsection 2 should also be abolished.

100% absolutely.  And Section 1 is really saying "everything here in the Charter is guaranteed...until we (the government) decide it's not".

I guess it's smart on them to build themselves an out-clause...

[Moonlight Graham]

I don't know why you would burn your own country's flag, unless you're an enemy of the state or a traitor or something?  The Canadian flag doesn't represent just the government, it represents the whole country as a nation too.  If you burn your own country's flag, I don't even know why you'd still be living there.

To burn your own flag is a pretty extreme form of speech. You're basically saying "F*** Canada", or "F*** the USA".  It's essentially hate-speech towards an entire nation.

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said:

It's essentially hate-speech towards an entire nation.

I see it as a protest against the policies of the current government. I don`t think it is a good way to protest, but your labeling it as hate speech towards an entire nation is basically hate speech towards the persons who do it as they may be as, or more, patriotic than you.

[cybercoma]

5 hours ago, kimmy said:

That's precisely the point.  That's how laws banning the burning of the flag were struck down in the first place. Likewise, Rosa Parks wasn't just out shopping that day, she went there with the full intention of getting arrested and put on trial.

 -k

Your argument looks like you're saying she should not have done that.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

Your argument looks like you're saying she should not have done that.

My 2cents.  I don't see that in Kimmy's comment.  It looks to me like an acknowledgment that sometimes laws will be broken in order to do what is right.  There will be consequences though, until the law is changed. 

[Moonlight Graham]

16 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

I see it as a protest against the policies of the current government. I don`t think it is a good way to protest, but your labeling it as hate speech towards an entire nation is basically hate speech towards the persons who do it as they may be as, or more, patriotic than you.

If you're expressing your love for your country by burning its flag because you disagree with the current government I think your choice of expression is very poor.  A flag doesn't represent a current government.  "Canada" is not defined by the Trudeau Liberal Government.

[-1=e^ipi]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I don't know why you would burn your own country's flag, unless you're an enemy of the state or a traitor or something?  The Canadian flag doesn't represent just the government, it represents the whole country as a nation too.  If you burn your own country's flag, I don't even know why you'd still be living there.

To burn your own flag is a pretty extreme form of speech. You're basically saying "F*** Canada", or "F*** the USA".  It's essentially hate-speech towards an entire nation.

 

All hate speech should be legal.

[Topaz]

maybe its not so bad, I saw the flags they were burning, it looked like the ones made in China!

[?Impact]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

If you're expressing your love for your country by burning its flag because you disagree with the current government I think your choice of expression is very poor.

I agree, I already said as much. I am just pointing out that it is free speech, regardless if you agree or not.

[Bryan]

2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

  It's essentially hate-speech towards an entire nation.

That's a good point. If someone were to burn a Rainbow flag at a pride march, would that freedom of expression be protected? I have a strong feeling that some would try to argue that is a hate crime.

Burning a symbol that means something to a given group is not just "expression", it's a provocation. You are deliberately trying to get a reaction out of those people. So sure, you have a 'right' to do it, but if you somehow end up wrapped in that flag while it still burns, that's on you.

[The_Squid]

2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I don't know why you would burn your own country's flag, unless you're an enemy of the state or a traitor or something?  The Canadian flag doesn't represent just the government, it represents the whole country as a nation too.  If you burn your own country's flag, I don't even know why you'd still be living there.

To burn your own flag is a pretty extreme form of speech. You're basically saying "F*** Canada", or "F*** the USA".  It's essentially hate-speech towards an entire nation.

 

You may not understand it, condone it or agree with it....  but that doesn't mean it should be illegal...  or, like in Turkey, worthy of being shot and killed for.

[Bonam]

Just now, Bryan said:

So sure, you have a 'right' to do it, but if you somehow end up wrapped in that flag while it still burns, that's on you.

No, it's not on you, it's on the murderer who killed you by causing you to be burned to death.