Marx was right!

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Where Marx's explanations break down in Trump's case is the idiocy of the proletariat siccing a billionaire on the bourgeoisie that's been screwing them over.  Maybe when the drug Trump spiked his kool-aid with wears off his supporters will start taking matters into their own hands - I won't be surprised if they start with him.

Yeah exactly.  Why would a billionaire-class POTUS shoot himself in the foot?  Especially a guy so selfish and narcissistic as him?  The billionaire class went from influencing and buying off the White House to now actually running it themselves.  When you need insane flows of cash to run a campaign I guess these kinds of people pop up.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Maybe when the drug Trump spiked his kool-aid with wears off his supporters will start taking matters into their own hands - I won't be surprised if they start with him.

Possibly the admiration is not even about Donald Trump. To paraphrase Marshall McLuhan, "The man is the message".

[bush_cheney2004]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Where Marx's explanations break down in Trump's case is the idiocy of the proletariat siccing a billionaire on the bourgeoisie that's been screwing them over. 

 

 

They tried it Marx's way....remember....it was the laughable "Occupy Wall Street" > Occupy Movement.   They were mocked instead.

 

[eyeball]

Taking the high road seems to evoke that.

[TTM]

11 hours ago, eyeball said:

Where Marx's explanations break down in Trump's case is the idiocy of the proletariat siccing a billionaire on the bourgeoisie that's been screwing them over.  Maybe when the drug Trump spiked his kool-aid with wears off his supporters will start taking matters into their own hands - I won't be surprised if they start with him.

Because (as they saw it) they had no other options.  He was elected because he made the right mouth noises about cleaning things up and bringing back jobs, and because the establishment on both sides made it clear he was not one of them.  Trump is a brick thrown at the establishment.   My guess is that it is a rubber brick.

[cybercoma]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

Where Marx's explanations break down in Trump's case is the idiocy of the proletariat siccing a billionaire on the bourgeoisie that's been screwing them over.  Maybe when the drug Trump spiked his kool-aid with wears off his supporters will start taking matters into their own hands - I won't be surprised if they start with him.

Marx is only part of the explanation of contemporary US politics. While it's true that there is a materialist argument to be made, i.e., poor white people falling behind due to industrial flight, Weber's Protestant Ethic is a much better explanation. I'm not going to sit here and write up something that's already been done better by someone else on Twitter. So I'll repost his Tweets instead.
 

 

While he doesn't explicitly say it, what he's alluding to is Max Weber's idea that Protestant asceticism was a way to show that you were living a blessed life and that you may be one of the chosen few. Predestination doctrine is so unlike Catholic repentance. In Protestantism, especially with Calvinists, there's an elect few that will be "saved" by God. One way to show that you're one of the elect few is to gather wealth. Wealth for wealth's sake. For Weber, this was the driving force behind capitalist society. We can see from @jpbrammer's Twitter essay (I hate Twitter essay's, as an aside--just publish an article) how class consciousness (a Marxian concept) is undermined by the Protestant ethic (a Weberian concept). This is why you get an entire group of people voting against their personal interests. Marx believed that classes would come together and work against the forces oppressing them, but that hasn't happened in America and it won't happen as long as people there continue to see themselves as Steinbeck wrote, "temporarily embarrassed millionaires." The culture of Protestantism combined with the history of race relations is so engrained in American culture from its foundation that they trump's (pun not intended) class consciousness and any hope of real progress for those who are suffering.

Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote something while he was in prison that I think is relevant here:

The other day I was saying, I always try to do a little converting when I'm in jail. And when we were in jail in Birmingham the other day, the white wardens and all enjoyed coming around the cell to talk about the race problem. And they were showing us where we were so wrong demonstrating. And they were showing us where segregation was so right. And they were showing us where intermarriage was so wrong. So I would get to preaching, and we would get to talking—calmly, because they wanted to talk about it. And then we got down one day to the point—that was the second or third day—to talk about where they lived, and how much they were earning. And when those brothers told me what they were earning, I said, "Now, you know what? You ought to be marching with us. [laughter] You're just as poor as Negroes." And I said, "You are put in the position of supporting your oppressor, because through prejudice and blindness, you fail to see that the same forces that oppress Negroes in American society oppress poor white people. (Yes) And all you are living on is the satisfaction of your skin being white, and the drum major instinct of thinking that you are somebody big because you are white. And you're so poor you can't send your children to school. You ought to be out here marching with every one of us every time we have a march."

Now that's a fact. That the poor white has been put into this position, where through blindness and prejudice, (Make it plain) he is forced to support his oppressors. And the only thing he has going for him is the false feeling that he’s superior because his skin is white—and can't hardly eat and make his ends meet week in and week out. (Amen)

So why do people vote against their interests and get conned by someone like Trump? Your answer is there.

[Bonam]

6 hours ago, cybercoma said:

 This is why you get an entire group of people voting against their personal interests. Marx believed that classes would come together and work against the forces oppressing them, but that hasn't happened in America and it won't happen as long as people there continue to see themselves as Steinbeck wrote, "temporarily embarrassed millionaires." The culture of Protestantism combined with the history of race relations is so engrained in American culture from its foundation that they trump's (pun not intended) class consciousness and any hope of real progress for those who are suffering.

So why do people vote against their interests and get conned by someone like Trump? Your answer is there.

The twitter source you quote basically says people don't develop an identity around their class of being poor. And your source says that this is the problem, if people just identified as poor rather than as not having succeeded yet, then they'd vote for their own best interest, that is, for handouts. Needless to say, I disagree with this point of view. People voted for Trump not for lack of class identity. Class identity is stupid anyway, you don't get ahead through identity politics. What matters is your identity as an individual, and almost every individual has it in them to succeed and do well. But the reason Clinton lost white rural / working class voters was because the entire narrative of the campaign was how these people are racist if they even thought of supporting Trump. As Bill Clinton himself said during the campaign, they weren't doing anything to win over these voters. Instead, they focused on identity politics and appealing to various specific "oppressed" groups. 

As Brexit showed and as the election of Trump once again showed, you don't persuade people to vote for you by calling them racist. Just like you don't win people over to your side of a point of view by calling them racist (though you've certainly tried that many times on this forum - and failed). The moment you call someone racist, you've shut down any possibility of genuine debate and lost that voter forever.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Bonam

[TTM]

if people just identified as poor rather than as not having succeeded yet, then they'd vote for their own best interest, that is, for handouts.

The poor voting for their interests is not equivalent to voting for handouts: laws, regulations, tax policy, etc can differentially favour rich vs. poor.  As far as programs specifically aimed at the poor ("hand-outs"), they are almost universally cheaper then the alternative if you don't externalize costs.

almost every individual has it in them to succeed and do well. 

Sure, but even ignoring the people not included in "almost everyone" this is limited in reality by basic economics: "everyone" cannot do well.  Ex. not everyone can be an engineer (and if they could then supply and demand would dictate it would become a minimum wage job). Someone has to clean the toilets, wait tables, sell you shoes, etc. Everyone (as a group) can do "better" by minimizing as much as possible income inequality but someone still needs to be at the bottom (unless you are advocating communism).  

The moment you call someone racist, you've shut down any possibility of genuine debate 

Very true, the majority of Trump supporters are no more racist than those on the left (most people are prejudiced or "biased" to some degree whether they are aware of it or not).  

On the other hand, if I found myself in the same camp as the KKK, I personally would need to do some serious soul searching

[cybercoma]

3 hours ago, Bonam said:

Class identity is stupid anyway

Yeah, let's have a "serious" discussion....

[cybercoma]

3 hours ago, Bonam said:

you don't persuade people to vote for you by calling them racist.

Also, who gives a crap? When people support a racist scumbag like Trump, they deserve to be called worse than "racist."

[cybercoma]

44 minutes ago, TTM said:

The poor voting for their interests is not equivalent to voting for handouts: laws, regulations, tax policy, etc can differentially favour rich vs. poor.  As far as programs specifically aimed at the poor ("hand-outs"), they are almost universally cheaper then the alternative if you don't externalize costs.

"Hand-outs" is the rhetoric of the alt-right and libertarians whose dogmatic ideologies are antisocial and destructive to society.

[Bonam]

6 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

Also, who gives a crap? When people support a racist scumbag like Trump, they deserve to be called worse than "racist."

Who gives a crap? All the people who now how to live under a president Trump because their side was too stupid, too trapped in their own intellectual, to use effective messaging that could have won the election. All those groups that might actually suffer under president Trump care. In 2012, Romney ran and the Democrats called him racist and he lost. In 2008 McCain ran and the Democrats called him racist and he lost. And in 2016 Trump ran, but the village had gotten tired of coming out every time the boy cried wolf, and when the real big bad wolf came, the boy got gobbled up. 

[Bonam]

11 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

Yeah, let's have a "serious" discussion....

You disagree that class identity is stupid? You take someone seriously who, when asked about their identity, answers not with their name, or their profession, or their lifestyle/passion, or their place of origin/citizenship, but with their freaking economic class? Who the heck feels a sense of kinship with and identity as a member of an economic class? "Hi, I'm middle class". Getting back to the topic at hand, identifying with one's economic class is nothing but Marxist nonsense.

[TTM]

1 hour ago, cybercoma said:

Also, who gives a crap? When people support a racist scumbag like Trump, they deserve to be called worse than "racist."

The majority likely voted for him despite the racist stuff either because of a cost/benefit decision or because it is not directed at them.   Does that make them paragons of virtue, no, nor does it clear them of responsibility from the results.  But it does not mean they hold any overtly racist beliefs.

Regardless you can't reach someone by calling them racist because either they acknowledge they are and don't care (or take pride) they don't view themselves as racist and so what you say does not apply to them.  

Edited November 29, 2016 by TTM
spelling

[TTM]

57 minutes ago, cybercoma said:

"Hand-outs" is the rhetoric of the alt-right and libertarians whose dogmatic ideologies are antisocial and destructive to society.

It's rhetoric of pretty much anyone even remotely "right wing".  So what?

[TTM]

47 minutes ago, Bonam said:

You disagree that class identity is stupid? You take someone seriously who, when asked about their identity, answers not with their name, or their profession, or their lifestyle/passion, or their place of origin/citizenship, but with their freaking economic class? Who the heck feels a sense of kinship with and identity as a member of an economic class? "Hi, I'm middle class". Getting back to the topic at hand, identifying with one's economic class is nothing but Marxist nonsense.

People make choices based on what their real, percieved, or desired economic class it all the time.  I don't think they usually think about it in those terms though.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, cybercoma said:

Also, who gives a crap? When people support a racist scumbag like Trump, they deserve to be called worse than "racist."

 

Call 'em whatever you want, but they still get to vote.  Trump and his "racists" were better than Clinton and her "racists".

[cybercoma]

1 hour ago, Bonam said:

You disagree that class identity is stupid? You take someone seriously who, when asked about their identity, answers not with their name, or their profession, or their lifestyle/passion, or their place of origin/citizenship, but with their freaking economic class? 

That is stupid. Too bad that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject.

[cybercoma]

27 minutes ago, TTM said:

Regardless you can't reach someone by calling them racist

I don't care to reach anyone stupid enough to vote for Trump. They're a lost cause.

[Bonam]

1 hour ago, cybercoma said:

I don't care to reach anyone stupid enough to vote for Trump. They're a lost cause.

That's fine, but given that the Democratic party just lost the election, if they adopt that mindset they are gonna lose a lot more. 

[TTM]

2 hours ago, cybercoma said:

I don't care to reach anyone stupid enough to vote for Trump. They're a lost cause.

Not true in the least ... 4 years of Trump actually in power will likely change alot of minds

Edited November 29, 2016 by TTM
highlight

[TTM]

 

On 2016-11-27 at 11:40 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

 

They tried it Marx's way....remember....it was the laughable "Occupy Wall Street" > Occupy Movement.   They were mocked instead.

 

Mocked, in the same way Trump is?  

In both cases resistance was fanned by one side of the political establishment (with the support of their portion of the corporatist media), with only lukewarm tolerance to outright hostility by the other.  

These sorts of things will continue until the problem is addressed

[cybercoma]

11 hours ago, Bonam said:

That's fine, but given that the Democratic party just lost the election, if they adopt that mindset they are gonna lose a lot more. 

The Democratic Party is part of the problem. They're not a solution to anything.

[cybercoma]

On 11/28/2016 at 1:40 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

They tried it Marx's way....

Marx didn't prescribe anything. He was describing what was happening in his day. He was more of a historian than a soothsayer, but you would have actually had to read Marx to understand that, instead of getting your opinion from other people who haven't read him either.

[Moonlight Graham]

14 hours ago, cybercoma said:

I don't care to reach anyone stupid enough to vote for Trump. They're a lost cause.

This self-righteous nonsense is just so helpful!  You're no different than Trump and his racist supporters then, just different sides of the same coin.  You just hate and resent different types of people. Oh the irony of hate from a lot of people on the left. Morally superior, educated hate it is!

Instead of calling millions of people stupid and racist (which they may well be!) and whatever names make us feel good, how about we try and solve this stuff together instead of drawing more lines in the sand.  These are complex divisions which demand complex solutions, a lot of humble pie, a lot of empathy (different than sympathy) for the people we want so badly to despise and call our enemy...but they're still human and are reacting in human ways to changes around them and should be treated as such or we're no better.

Calling people stupid and racist will only make them more ignorant and racist I can 100% guarantee you that!  I love Star Wars, and if Luke thought Darth Vader was "a lost cause" well Return of the Jedi would have ended a lot different. The great thing about Trump supporters is that they're human like Vader was, and it might take a lot of work but if you go about it the right way you can reach into their heart and pull out the decency that's inside these folks.

Most of these people know nothing of Marx, like most people a lot of their identity is tied up in their culture and when they see the culture that they and generations of their family grew up with changing because of immigration from places with very different cultures it's indeed a threat to their interests.  It's going to take one hell of a leader to figure this one out, and it will probably take a great leader (politician or not) to do it because individuals on their own will just keep going down this path.