This month in Christianity/Atheism/Judaism/Asia and Far East Religions/New religious movements

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And if  you'd been reading my posts, you'd know how often I defend against the lies that are told about Islam.   

Islam, as taught by the Quran, does not support the oppressive laws enforced by Islamic regimes.   They just use Islam as an excuse for what they'd do anyway.  

They are Muslims, though, interpreting Islam the way they decide to, right?  It's easy for you to say that you would interpret it differently, and you are the one interpreting it correctly, but they would certainly argue the point.

The Westboro Baptists are Christians, after all.  But they aren't Betsy. (Excuse me, Betsy)

[Michael Hardner]

I think the factors that lead to this being an issue in our realm of geopolitics are:

- Our perceptions, and how we view security

- Global and regional political attributes 

- Cultural and social factors including religion

Religion could be seen as a 'cause' but hard to separate from the other causes too.  

[dialamah]

Just now, bcsapper said:

They are Muslims, though, interpreting Islam the way they decide to, right?  It's easy for you to say that you would interpret it differently, and you are the one interpreting it correctly, but they would certainly argue the point.

The Westboro Baptists are Christians, after all.  But they aren't Betsy. (Excuse me, Betsy)

The point is that the vast majority of Muslims do not practice or agree with the behavior of terrorists.   A lot of what people criticize as *Islam* is actual cultural and practiced by people of different faiths within that culture.   If one wants to criticize Islam, they ought to at least be able to differentiate between cultural practices and religious practices.

 

[Guest]

Just now, dialamah said:

The point is that the vast majority of Muslims do not practice or agree with the behavior of terrorists.   A lot of what people criticize as *Islam* is actual cultural and practiced by people of different faiths within that culture.   If one wants to criticize Islam, they ought to at least be able to differentiate between cultural practices and religious practices.

 

I agree, and there are definitely some grey areas.  FGM, the Veil, etc, certainly have been ascribed to both religion and culture.

But, as I have said over and over, if one says one is doing something because God says so, I'm not going to argue.

It is understood that the vast majority of Muslims do not practice or agree with the behavior of terrorists.  The vast majority of Irish people did not practice or agree with the behavior of the IRA, but the IRA were still Irish.  And that was why they they did what the did.

[Altai]

5 hours ago, bcsapper said:

No, the "This week in Islam" thread is there to post about egregious, barbaric acts actually carried out in the name of Islam, along with any notable act in the other direction, also carried out by Muslims, to try and mitigate the horror.

This thread was created in a fit of pique by someone who refuses to acknowledge that her religion alone is responsible for the vast majority of the brutality being perpetrated in religions's name these days, in an attempt to associate any crime committed by a non Muslim, with their religion, no matter how baseless that association might be.

1) It does not matter why someones commits a crime.

2) We cannot know why they commit these crimes, we can just "guess". We cant read someone's mind and what he/she was thinking while committing crimes. So he may be inspired from an article in a religious text or he/she may just create her/his own reason in her/his mind to commit a crime.

3) I believe the second part, so no religions would order to commit crimes and even if it was so, its mathematically illogical to blame religions because there are billions of persons who claims to believe in a religion and if they were ordered to commit crimes by their religions and only %1 of them were appliying their religions, daily 50.000.000 murders, rapes, thefts would happen and the World would be like a hell. Your claim logically fails in this point. Many of these "religious" countries are in safest countries list.



Please dont derail the topic. Stay in the context.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Altai said:

1) It does not matter why someones commits a crime.

Sure it does.  The law takes all kinds of things into consideration

2) We cannot know why they commit these crimes, we can just "guess". We cant read someone's mind and what he/she was thinking while committing crimes. So he may be inspired from an article in a religious text or he/she may just create her/his own reason in her/his mind to commit a crime.

I just go by what they say.

3) I believe the second part, so no religions would order to commit crimes and even if it was so, its mathematically illogical to blame religions because there are billions of persons who claims to believe in a religion and if they were ordered to commit crimes by their religions and only %1 of them were appliying their religions, daily 50.000.000 murders, rapes, thefts would happen and the World would be like a hell. Your claim logically fails in this point. Many of these "religious" countries are in safest countries list.

One doesn't blame religions.  One blames religious people acting in a manner they believe their religion expects/wants them to.


Please dont derail the topic. Stay in the context.

If you meant that about not derailing the topic, you should have just posted that line, and not the argument.

Edited December 12, 2016 by bcsapper
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction - Blaise Pascal

[Altai]

Atheist suicide bombers held terror attack and murders policemen and civilians.


http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/10/europe/istanbul-explosions/  (look at the link, CNN cannot call as it as "terror" attack)

Edited December 12, 2016 by Altai

[betsy]

20 hours ago, dialamah said:

Agree.  If every act of barbarous violence were described with the perpetrators race/religion, there'd be an awful lot of white Caucasian/Christian perpetrators in Canada/US/Britain/etc. and an awful lot of brown Caucasian/Muslim names in the Middle Eastern/African/Asian regions of the world.   Funny how that works.

 

I was talking about battered women in shelters.  You've taken my response out of context.

[betsy]

5 hours ago, Altai said:

Atheist suicide bombers held terror attack and murders policemen and civilians.


http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/10/europe/istanbul-explosions/  (look at the link, CNN cannot call as it as "terror" attack)

 They're not identified as atheists.  They're Kurds.

 

Chances are, they're Muslims!

 

Quote

 

Today, the majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslim, belonging to the Shafi school.

There is also a minority of Kurds who are Shia Muslims,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds

Edited December 12, 2016 by betsy

[betsy]

21 hours ago, dialamah said:

I thought the same of the topic started by Kimmy "This week in Islam".

 

 

It's very much in the news.  The terrorist acts around the world continues.  They're doing atrocities on a daily basis. 

Unless you're hiding in some cave somewhere, you should know.  There isn't a day that goes by without any news about Islam!

Edited December 12, 2016 by betsy

[betsy]

6 hours ago, Altai said:

1) It does not matter why someones commits a crime.

2) We cannot know why they commit these crimes, we can just "guess". We cant read someone's mind and what he/she was thinking while committing crimes. So he may be inspired from an article in a religious text or he/she may just create her/his own reason in her/his mind to commit a crime.

Yes, it does matter to know the reason behind a crime.  It's called "MOTIVE."  That's always part of an investigation.

Islamists are saying they're doing it for their god!  They call themselves jihadists.  So, we know.

Edited December 12, 2016 by betsy

[Altai]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

Yes, it does matter to know the reason behind a crime.  It's called "MOTIVE."  That's always part of an investigation.

Islamists are saying they're doing it for their god!  They call themselves jihadists.  So, we know.

Crime is crime, various reasons does not create various rates of crime. We cant call the same crimes based on its reason as "less criminal" and "more criminal". If you open a topic to attack billions of Muslim people based on a few crazy person, then I am doing the same thing here, I blame all atheist and christian and other religious people based on the same reasons with you. Please dont derail this topic more and post related with the content.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Altai

[Altai]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

 They're not identified as atheists.  They're Kurds.

 

Chances are, they're Muslims!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds

PKK is an atheist organization which also includes some Christian members. They hates Muslims including Muslim Kurdish peoople and huge part of Kurdish people is Muslim. 

You have some true informations but you are not able to combine the informations and see the ties between them. 


Anyway please dont derail the topic more if you dont want to fall in my ignore list.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Altai

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

I was talking about battered women in shelters.  You've taken my response out of context.

Are you saying beating up women isn't barbarous?

[betsy]

1 hour ago, Altai said:

Crime is crime, various reasons does not create various rates of crime. We cant call the same crimes based on its reason as "less criminal" and "more criminal". If you open a topic to attack billions of Muslim people based on a few crazy person, then I am doing the same thing here, I blame all atheist and christian and other religious people based on the same reasons with you. Please dont derail this topic more and post related with the content.

These are not ordinary crimes, my dear ladies.

These are what we can describe as atrocities against mankind. 

[betsy]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Are you saying beating up women isn't barbarous?

Comprehension problems?

I suggest you go back and read it again - slowly.  Sometimes that helps.  If not, go find someone else near you to explain.  I'm busy. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by betsy

[betsy]

3 hours ago, Altai said:

Crime is crime, various reasons does not create various rates of crime. We cant call the same crimes based on its reason as "less criminal" and "more criminal". If you open a topic to attack billions of Muslim people based on a few crazy person, then I am doing the same thing here, I blame all atheist and christian and other religious people based on the same reasons with you. Please dont derail this topic more and post related with the content.

 

You might think you're attacking Christians and atheists and other religious people........but what you're only achieving is showing us that you're missing the point.

 

No one is attacking the WHOLE Muslim community.  

The topic of Kimmy is not to attack the whole Muslim community.  At least, that's how I view it.  The topic is meant to keep abreast with something that's become a problem for the whole global community.  Some of us know that this problem will be with us for a long time.  Of course religion is part of it - how can it not, when it's the reason the terrorists justify their actions?

We're talking about the Islamist terrorists we see on the news.

 

I'm a Christian, and I don't feel "attacked" by your topic!  I find it silly.

Edited December 12, 2016 by betsy

[Goddess]

All I know is that you don't see the Amish or the Quakers runing around trying to convince the rest of the world that they're "the religion of peace."

[dialamah]

Just now, Goddess said:

All I know is that you don't see the Amish or the Quakers runing around trying to convince the rest of the world that they're "the religion of peace."

While you are busy feeling smug about how much better Christians are, and how worse Muslims are, read this book:  https://www.amazon.ca/Tears-Silenced-American-Tragedy-Leaving-ebook/dp/B00RETC8B4

Also, check out some history -- modern and ancient:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion#Christianity

Find out what is happening today:  https://www.thenation.com/article/its-not-just-uganda-behind-christian-rights-onslaught-africa/

Look up these *Christian* terrorist groups:  Lord's Resistance Army, National Liberation Front of Tripura, Antibalaka - that's only a few.

How about the Christian Identity Movement - a group that believes non-Caucasians don't have souls, and cannot be saved.

Quote

One of the most remarkable developments in the extreme right in the United States in the past few decades has been the rise of an obscure religious ideology known as Christian Identity. Penetrating existing racist and anti-Semitic groups and movements, it has inflamed their bigotry with religious fervor and also sparked the creation of many new groups. Adherents have committed hate crimes, bombings and other acts of terrorism. Identity's current influence ranges from Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazi groups to the anti-government militia and sovereign citizen movements-yet most Americans are unaware that it even exists.

 

These people are eerily similar to the worst of the Muslims:

Quote

The Priesthood is based on the concept of the obscure Biblical character Phinehas, an Israelite who used a spear to slay a "race-mixing" fellow Israelite and the Midianite woman with whom he had sex. Hoskins conjured up the idea of an elite class of "Phineas Priests," self-anointed warriors who would use extreme measures to attack race-mixers, gays, or abortionists, among other targets. Over the years, some have committed crimes using the Phineas Priest label, including a group of about eight who committed bombings and bank robberies in the Spokane, Washington, area in 1996 (four of whom were caught and sentenced to lengthy prison terms). In 2002, two Aryan Nations splinter groups openly adopted Phineas Priest names or symbols.

There are hundreds more extreme Christian groups around the world, who use a twisted biblical ideology to support crimes of hatred and terror.   Most people in the Western world don't know about them because the media focuses on Islamic crimes, not Christian crimes.   After all, Christians are our next door neighbors, and they tend to look like us, right?   Muslims, on the other hand, look a little bit different and they aren't our neighbors - way better to focus on their crimes, right?

 

[betsy]

5 hours ago, Altai said:

PKK is an atheist organization which also includes some Christian members. They hates Muslims including Muslim Kurdish peoople and huge part of Kurdish people is Muslim. 

You have some true informations but you are not able to combine the informations and see the ties between them. 


Anyway please dont derail the topic more if you dont want to fall in my ignore list.

 

You don't know that! 

 

Quote

A Kurdish militant group has claimed responsibility for two bombings in Istanbul Saturday that killed at least 38 people, mostly police officers. The Kurdish Freedom Hawks (TAK), a breakaway group of the Kurdistan Worker's Party (PKK), said in a statement on its website that the Turkish people were not the target of the attack.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/10/europe/istanbul-explosions/

 

Show me a source that identify them as atheists and Christians!

 

Nobody seems to know for sure what this TAK group is.

http://journal-neo.org/2016/03/22/what-are-kurdistan-freedom-hawks-fighting-for/

Edited December 12, 2016 by betsy

[betsy]

20 minutes ago, dialamah said:

While you are busy feeling smug about how much better Christians are, and how worse Muslims are, read this book:  https://www.amazon.ca/Tears-Silenced-American-Tragedy-Leaving-ebook/dp/B00RETC8B4

Also, check out some history -- modern and ancient:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion#Christianity

Find out what is happening today:  https://www.thenation.com/article/its-not-just-uganda-behind-christian-rights-onslaught-africa/

Look up these *Christian* terrorist groups:  Lord's Resistance Army, National Liberation Front of Tripura, Antibalaka - that's only a few.

How about the Christian Identity Movement - a group that believes non-Caucasians don't have souls, and cannot be saved.

 

These people are eerily similar to the worst of the Muslims:

There are hundreds more extreme Christian groups around the world, who use a twisted biblical ideology to support crimes of hatred and terror.   Most people in the Western world don't know about them because the media focuses on Islamic crimes, not Christian crimes.   After all, Christians are our next door neighbors, and they tend to look like us, right?   Muslims, on the other hand, look a little bit different and they aren't our neighbors - way better to focus on their crimes, right?

 

You can twist and delude yourself, but you ain't deluding me. 

Any extremism exhibited by any religion today,  does not compare to the chaos and deaths that the Islamist militants bring to the world.

 

You're comparing bumps to mountains.

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

While you are busy feeling smug about how much better Christians are, and how worse Muslims are, read this book:  https://www.amazon.ca/Tears-Silenced-American-Tragedy-Leaving-ebook/dp/B00RETC8B4

Also, check out some history -- modern and ancient:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion#Christianity

Find out what is happening today:  https://www.thenation.com/article/its-not-just-uganda-behind-christian-rights-onslaught-africa/

Look up these *Christian* terrorist groups:  Lord's Resistance Army, National Liberation Front of Tripura, Antibalaka - that's only a few.

How about the Christian Identity Movement - a group that believes non-Caucasians don't have souls, and cannot be saved.

 

These people are eerily similar to the worst of the Muslims:

There are hundreds more extreme Christian groups around the world, who use a twisted biblical ideology to support crimes of hatred and terror.   Most people in the Western world don't know about them because the media focuses on Islamic crimes, not Christian crimes.   After all, Christians are our next door neighbors, and they tend to look like us, right?   Muslims, on the other hand, look a little bit different and they aren't our neighbors - way better to focus on their crimes, right?

 

I'm not "feeling smug" as I am neither Christian, nor Muslim.

But I agree with Betsy, you can't compare ordinary crime to crimes against humanity.  And I don't believe it's 100% just the media picking on Muslims. There is clearly a problem with extremists in that religion and it goes beyond the WBC picketing at veteran's funerals and abortion clinics. 

It needs to addressed - why that religion seems to breed extremism. But I believe it needs to be addressed by Muslims themselves and will not be solved by Westerners.  It will never be addressed as long as they  keep telling themselves that there is no problem.

 

Edit to say: I will read your links when I get home tonight but if you're trying to point out that Christians also have issues, you're preaching to the choir. I feel as I stated above. there's a problem with extremism in that religion and they need to address it.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Goddess

[Altai]

This topic is not about Islam and Muslims, please dont post irrelevant contents. There is "This week in Islam" topic for you. Stop trolling my topics continuously. You cant tolerate my freedom of speech.

[Goddess]

25 minutes ago, Altai said:

 You cant tolerate my freedom of speech.

You can't tolerate ANY free speech.  That's why all your topics have your made-up  "rules".

[kactus]

17 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I agree, and there are definitely some grey areas.  FGM, the Veil, etc, certainly have been ascribed to both religion and culture.

But, as I have said over and over, if one says one is doing something because God says so, I'm not going to argue.

Ou mean people like this fruitcake....

Be careful what you wished for. You may be called anti semite if you extended same curtesy to other religions....

 

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by kactus