This month in Christianity/Atheism/Judaism/Asia and Far East Religions/New religious movements

[Altai]

Atheist or Christian guy murders people. I dont care what was his idea while murdering people. He is just a murderer and he is an atheist or christian. Deal with it.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/butler-county/hamilton/-police-suspect-arrested-in-connection-with-death-of-hamilton-firefighter-patrick-wolterman

[Altai]

Another atheist or christian guy murders people. We should get rid of these dangerous believes before they are going to attempt murder us too 

https://reportca.net/2016/12/nfl-stars-killer-guilty-of-manslaughter-not-murder-2/

[Altai]

More murders by atheist or christian persons. Ohh God. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/centretown-shooting-man-injured-1.3891587



Should we nuke Western countries to protect ourselves ? 
 

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

I'm not "feeling smug" as I am neither Christian, nor Muslim.

But I agree with Betsy, you can't compare ordinary crime to crimes against humanity.  And I don't believe it's 100% just the media picking on Muslims. There is clearly a problem with extremists in that religion and it goes beyond the WBC picketing at veteran's funerals and abortion clinics. 

It needs to addressed - why that religion seems to breed extremism. But I believe it needs to be addressed by Muslims themselves and will not be solved by Westerners.  It will never be addressed as long as they  keep telling themselves that there is no problem.

 

Edit to say: I will read your links when I get home tonight but if you're trying to point out that Christians also have issues, you're preaching to the choir. I feel as I stated above. there's a problem with extremism in that religion and they need to address it.

Yes, religious extremism is a problem.   

Christian terrorist group beheads Muslims

Christian terrorist group enslaves young girls

Same Christian group kidnaps boys and men

Kansas City Christian terrorists bomb plot

A plethora of Christian terror activities around the world and in the US

That's just a sampling of what you can find, if you aren't blinded by the Western media's focus on Islamic extremism.   

Extremism is a problem, and it really doesn't matter if it's Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Sikh or Aryan.   That extremism exists in the Western world, under the guise of Christianity and nationalism, and it's growing.  Especially since Trump's election, these people and groups have gotten bolder.

The point isn't that Islamic terrorism is "ok" because Christians do it too, it's that this belief that we (Christian, Western, Democratic, civilized) are *different* and our kind don't do that is simply wrong.   "Our kind" has done that stuff in the past, we're doing it currently in places most of us don't even know about, and we're fully capable of doing it again.   You can't condemn their extremism while dismissing or ignoring our extremism.    

 

[Goddess]

Just now, dialamah said:

You can't condemn their extremism while dismissing or ignoring our extremism.    

I don't.

I'm an avid traveller and I'm a bit afraid to go anywhere right now.  And it's not because of Christians bombing, beheading, etc.

I think what you're missing is the EXTENT of Islamic extremism.  Are you saying that Christian extremism is as prevalent as Islamic extremism right now?

[kactus]

I think his point is that you need to take an unbiased view, which isn't subjective and blames everything squarely on the entire muslim world....

There are many of those brainwashed, twisted individual who discriminately commit crimes against muslims like this idiot....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/forest-hill-stabbing-man-stabs-9443379

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/forest-hill-stabbing-kill-muslims-attacker-suspect-station-london-train-a7470016.html%3Famp?client=safari

This is quite frightening but so is our media brainwashing sheeps...

Edited December 12, 2016 by kactus

[dialamah]

37 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I don't.

I'm an avid traveller and I'm a bit afraid to go anywhere right now.  And it's not because of Christians bombing, beheading, etc.

I think what you're missing is the EXTENT of Islamic extremism.  Are you saying that Christian extremism is as prevalent as Islamic extremism right now?

In some parts of the world Christian extremism is more prevalent than Islamic Extremism.   Some places, it's the Sikhs you have to worry about; there are even extremist Buddhists and Jews, although I don't think their numbers compare to Islamic extremists, nationalistic extremists or Christian extremists.   But then again, I might be wrong.

Even in the States, Islamic extremism is less dangerous than right-wing extremism.   

Quote

They and untold thousands like them are the extremists who hide among us, the right-wing militants who, since 2002, have killed more people in the United States than jihadis have. In that time, according to New America, a Washington think tank, Islamists launched nine attacks that murdered 45, while the right-wing extremists struck 18 times, leaving 48 dead. 

The point is that because there's so much focus on Islamic extremism in the media, people completely miss all the other threats to safety.  

If you are going to let fear of terrorist attacks keep you from travelling, here's a list of other things you may want to rethink, as they're much more likely to kill you than a terrorist.  

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by dialamah

[betsy]

54 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The point isn't that Islamic terrorism is "ok" because Christians do it too, it's that this belief that we (Christian, Western, Democratic, civilized) are *different* and our kind don't do that is simply wrong.   "Our kind" has done that stuff in the past, we're doing it currently in places most of us don't even know about, and we're fully capable of doing it again.   You can't condemn their extremism while dismissing or ignoring our extremism.    

 

Sure we've done it in the past.  But we're not living in the past anymore.....but the Islamists are!  What's currently being done by "our kind," still, can't compare to the global scale of what Islamists are doing. 

 

What's happening in Africa - I think the culture plays more into it than religion.  Tit-for-tat seems to prevail in their tribal wars - just like what happened in Rwanda.  When the other tribe got into power, they decided to pay back the other tribe by cleansing.  It seems it doesn't take much for them to get into a cleansing frenzy.   

 

 

The point is:  murder is against the teachings of Christianity.  Oppression of the vulnerable - like women and children - is also against the teachings of Christianity.   

On the other hand,  Jihad is taught in the Quran!  There lies the big difference between the two.

 

164 Jihad Verses in the Koran

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html

 

That's the reason why I can say, Christians (those who follow the teachings of Christianity),  are not like the Islamists, who follow the teachings of the Quran.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by betsy

[Goddess]

Just now, dialamah said:

Even in the States, Islamic extremism is less dangerous than right-wing extremism. 

 

It could be because I'm less likely to be present at an abortion clinic than I would be on an airplane, at a club, in an office building, etc.......

So, I'm not too sure about your statement above, dialamah......

http://ijr.com/2016/01/518045-a-study-showed-right-wing-extremism-kills-more-than-islamic-terrorism-then-a-real-researcher-looked-into-it/

 

The New America study does not count violent jihadist attacks from self-radicalized or “lone wolf” terrorists who swear allegiance to Islam in the same manner as terrorist attacks committed by a card-carrying member of Islamist terror organizations. If a terrorist yells “Allahu Akbar!” before going on a murder spree, you see, that's not enough.

However, when right-wing terrorist attacks are coded by New America, those are attributed in a loose manner to mere statements made by the perpetrators that fit the left-wing's shibboleth that racist or anti-government views define someone as a “right-winger.”

Thus, the conclusions are not only questionable, they are borderline deceptive. The professor concludes:

Right wing terrorism is more deadly for Americans only if you add a number of very limiting parameters (e.g. excluding the victims of 9/11, ignoring “lone wolf” attacks without solid connections to groups like al-Qaeda and their affiliates, etc…). But if you lift those limitations, and apply equal standards, then the raw and unfiltered numbers of deaths of Americans due to Islamic extremism in the United States over the last fifteen years dwarf the numbers attributable to right wing extremism by a ratio of over 62 to 1.

Even if you leave out 9/11 victims and just focus on the ideological statements and goals of the attackers, then the deaths of Americans due to Islamic extremism still outnumber the deaths attributable to right wingers (which reveals an even greater disparity when compared with population groups). If we move beyond America’s borders, then the disparity becomes far greater, with somewhere around 90% of the world’s terrorism related deaths attributable to Islamic extremism, and only a fraction of 1% attributable to right wing extremism.

The professor's findings are consistent with terrorism incidents listed at non-partisan sources like the Global Terrorism Index and the Global Terrorism Database. It is certainly not true that “right wing extremists” kill more Americans than jihadists, or that they are “deadlier.”

[Goddess]

I "get" what you're trying to say.....and I agree to a point.

The Catholic church needed to be prodded by government/media to clean up their pedophile priests.  I'm sure the situation is still present but I think it's not the problem it was in the past (I hope?)

The way I see it, the Muslim faith needs the same thing.  Whether it's government stepping in or media shining the spotlight on it, they need to be prodded to do the right thing and deal with their extremist issues.  Just as the Catholic church denied the extent of their pedo problem until they were forced to deal with it, Muslims deny the extent of their jihadist problem.  

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

 

The way I see it, the Muslim faith needs the same thing.  Whether it's government stepping in or media shining the spotlight on it, they need to be prodded to do the right thing and deal with their extremist issues.  Just as the Catholic church denied the extent of their pedo problem until they were forced to deal with it, Muslims deny the extent of their jihadist problem.  

Yes they should, and they do.  Many Islamic scholars and clerics have spoken out against terrorist attacks, against ISIL, against the interpretations that condone stoning for adultery, death for apostates and non-believers, even death to gays.   Many Muslims themselves speak out against terror and terrorist attacks.   Unfortunately, people either miss or dismiss them:  I once posted a link to a multi-page statement signed by a couple hundred Islamic authorities and the response was something along the lines of "They aren't really Muslims then".   I've posted You-Tube videos of "Not My Islam", with young people from around the world speaking out against these atrocities, but nobody here really cares.  I, along with others, have posted direct counter-points the unending refrain that Muslims *must kill Westerners* and are violent, uncivilized savages; Argus goes on rants, DoP posts outright lies and you believe them.   Why do you?   

Just as extremism should be opposed, so should the hateful rhetoric that's spouted on this forum, along with the demonization of Muslims exemplified by the thread entitled "This Week in Islam".   

None of this means that I'm unaware of the realities of the problem in Middle Eastern and African societies when it comes to human rights.   However, this isn't an Islamic thing, it's a cultural thing.   That's why both Islamist extremists and Christian extremists in those regions think conversion by the sword is a good idea; why FGM is practiced by Christian faiths, including a small sect of Jews, as well as Islamists, and in nearly identical percentages; why Christian Ugandans will kill gay men and rape gay women without a shred of remorse, and why so many of those regimes are repressive regardless of whether their population is primarily Muslim or primarily Christian.

 

 

[Goddess]

Just now, dialamah said:

Yes they should, and they do.  Many Islamic scholars and clerics have spoken out against terrorist attacks, against ISIL, against the interpretations that condone stoning for adultery, death for apostates and non-believers, even death to gays.   Many Muslims themselves speak out against terror and terrorist attacks.   Unfortunately, people either miss or dismiss them:  I once posted a link to a multi-page statement signed by a couple hundred Islamic authorities and the response was something along the lines of "They aren't really Muslims then".   I've posted You-Tube videos of "Not My Islam", with young people from around the world speaking out against these atrocities, but nobody here really cares.  I, along with others, have posted direct counter-points the unending refrain that Muslims *must kill Westerners* and are violent, uncivilized savages; Argus goes on rants, DoP posts outright lies and you believe them.   Why do you?  

Yes, I see you do that and I watch/read it all.  I have a freind who's a big supporter of all things Islamic and I see it all from her too.

I'm aware that not "all" Muslims have these same views.  But as I've discussed with you, the vast majority of the ones I have personally met and interacted with fall into the violent, angry, vengeful, wife-beating category.  The one on this board is just the same - loves and revels in punishment, revenge, violence.  I'm sorry, that's just what I see.

I can tell a weak argument from an intelligent analysis.  When you posted the statement from a couple hundred Islamic authorities, and someone said, "They aren't real Muslims then" - that's a weak arguement.  But it really is just a drop in the bucket compared to the vast numbers of Muslims worldwide.

I get the impression that most of them are silent because while they might not agree with ISIS methods, they agree with the ideology.

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Yes, I see you do that and I watch/read it all.  I have a freind who's a big supporter of all things Islamic and I see it all from her too.

I'm aware that not "all" Muslims have these same views.  But as I've discussed with you, the vast majority of the ones I have personally met and interacted with fall into the violent, angry, vengeful, wife-beating category.  The one on this board is just the same - loves and revels in punishment, revenge, violence.  I'm sorry, that's just what I see.

I can tell a weak argument from an intelligent analysis.  When you posted the statement from a couple hundred Islamic authorities, and someone said, "They aren't real Muslims then" - that's a weak arguement.  But it really is just a drop in the bucket compared to the vast numbers of Muslims worldwide.

I get the impression that most of them are silent because while they might not agree with ISIS methods, they agree with the ideology.

Why do you get that impression?   Do you get that impression from Christians because they aren't gathering en mass to protest ongoing sexual and physical abuse in closed Christian sects, sects that amount to a tiny minority of all Christians?   Notice how I posted about the atrocities committed by Christians in Africa; why don't Betsy and Bryan, the two resident Christians I know about, jump up and condemn that behavior?   

Could you have that impression because you've seen it said by other people?   Maybe, people who aren't Middle Eastern, aren't African, aren't even Muslim? 

I've had bad experiences with men, too.   From South Asian men, from Middle Eastern men, from African men.  But mostly, from good old White Canadian/Christian men.   

 

 

[Goddess]

Just now, dialamah said:

Why do you get that impression?

Well, I doubt the neighbour who was constantly smacking his burka clad wife, is very vocal about improving women's rights in Islam.  But you could be right....maybe the smacking and yelling is just a front for a very kind man.

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Well, I doubt the neighbour who was constantly smacking his burka clad wife, is very vocal about improving women's rights in Islam.  But you could be right....maybe the smacking and yelling is just a front for a very kind man.

Thank god white Christians never smack their wives; why, we'd be as bad as those nasty, evil Muslims!

Never mind, Goddess, stay where you are.   I will not be having this conversation with you again.

 

 

[Altai]

LoL my topic is complately derailed and mods do nothing to prevent it. Funny. Then I will derail "This week in Islam topic". 

[Altai]

I think Christian people are influenced by these verses and this is why they commit crimes. 

I dont even mention atheists, they can justify anything, any crimes or any immorality. For example some atheist men in Sweden marry with their own daughter. They justify it in their minds.

 

 

[Altai]

I will share the massacres and murders done by Western armies in this topic too.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Altai

[betsy]

14 hours ago, dialamah said:

Yes they should, and they do.  Many Islamic scholars and clerics have spoken out against terrorist attacks, against ISIL, against the interpretations that condone stoning for adultery, death for apostates and non-believers, even death to gays.   Many Muslims themselves speak out against terror and terrorist attacks.   Unfortunately, people either miss or dismiss them:  I once posted a link to a multi-page statement signed by a couple hundred Islamic authorities and the response was something along the lines of "They aren't really Muslims then".   I've posted You-Tube videos of "Not My Islam", with young people from around the world speaking out against these atrocities, but nobody here really cares.  I, along with others, have posted direct counter-points the unending refrain that Muslims *must kill Westerners* and are violent, uncivilized savages; Argus goes on rants, DoP posts outright lies and you believe them.   Why do you?  

Just like people who claim to be Christians and yet they do things that are against the teachings of Christ, can't really be called Christians in the truest sense - the same goes for Muslims who claim to be Muslims and yet they don't follow the Quran!

 

Just because someone identifies himself as something doesn't make them so.  Their claim has to be supported by their actions!  Would you believe it if Ted Bundy had claimed he was a Christian?  Anyone can make claims.....but in the end, we can verify their claims through their actions.  That doesn't necessarily mean though that they don't believe what they claim about themselves.  Ted Bundy could've truly believed himself a Christian.....and Muslims who'd embraced and practice everything about the western lifestyle could truly believe they are Muslims.

 

But if we refer to the Bible and the Quran.....we know that they're not.

Edited December 13, 2016 by betsy

[betsy]

7 hours ago, Altai said:

LoL my topic is complately derailed and mods do nothing to prevent it. Funny. Then I will derail "This week in Islam topic". 

No, it isn't derailed.  You're just missing the point.  Here, let me re-post this:

 

Just because someone identifies himself as something doesn't make them so.  Their claim has to be supported by their actions! 

Would you believe it if Ted Bundy had claimed he was a Christian?  Anyone can make claims.....but in the end, we can verify their claims through their actions.  That doesn't necessarily mean though that they don't believe what they claim about themselves.  Ted Bundy could've truly believed himself a Christian.....and Muslims who'd embraced and practice everything about the western lifestyle could truly believe they are Muslims.

 

But if we refer to the Bible and the Quran.....we know that they're not.

 

(Note:  Ted Bundy was serial killer)

Edited December 13, 2016 by betsy

[dialamah]

9 minutes ago, betsy said:

Just like people who claim to be Christians and yet they do things that are against the teachings of Christ, can't really be called Christians in the truest sense - the same goes for Muslims who claim to be Muslims and yet they don't follow the Quran!

 

Just because someone identifies himself as something doesn't make them so.  Their claim has to be supported by their actions!  Would you believe it if Ted Bundy had claimed he was a Christian?  Anyone can make claims.....but in the end, we can verify their claims through their actions.  That doesn't necessarily mean though that they don't believe what they claim about themselves.  Ted Bundy could've truly believed himself a Christian.....

 

 

I agree with you, Betsy.  

Except that if someone says the people who carry out extreme acts in the name of Islam isn't a 'real' Muslim, it's not accepted.  The billions of Muslims who believe that Islam is the religion of peace are scoffed at.  Pointing out the scripture that these Muslims believe enjoins them to peace is dismissed as non-applicable.  Despite the many, many, many peaceful, tolerant and educated Muslims around the world, we're told that Muslims are ignorant, violent and barbarous.

   

 

 

[Guest]

I don't know why it is so hard to understand that different people interpret their religious beliefs/teachings, etc. differently. 

Edited December 13, 2016 by bcsapper
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction - Blaise Pascal

[betsy]

35 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I agree with you, Betsy.  

Except that if someone says the people who carry out extreme acts in the name of Islam isn't a 'real' Muslim, it's not accepted.  The billions of Muslims who believe that Islam is the religion of peace are scoffed at.  Pointing out the scripture that these Muslims believe enjoins them to peace is dismissed as non-applicable.  Despite the many, many, many peaceful, tolerant and educated Muslims around the world, we're told that Muslims are ignorant, violent and barbarous. 

 

 

 

Like I've explained, we can make claims. 

If I make a claim that Fifty Shades of Gray is a children's movie ........those who'd seen the movie will of course disagree with me and say, it's not!

It all depends on what's actually in the Book that we're purporting to follow!   If we don't follow the teachings in the Book, the claim that we are followers would be of course, false.  However, nothing stops us from making the false claim.  We may not even see it as a false claim.

 

I have not read the Quran, but from what I've known from those who'd claimed to have read and know about it, is that it preaches killing unbelievers, and doing  jihad. How can such teachings be a religion of peace?  Why can't it be pointed out by those who'd read it? 

Have you read the Quran?

Edited December 13, 2016 by betsy

[The_Squid]

 

 

17 hours ago, betsy said:

it preaches killing unbelievers,

So does the bible.  Have you read it?

 

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

[betsy]

3 hours ago, The_Squid said:

 

 

So does the bible.  Have you read it?

 

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

 

That's from the Old Law from the Old testament.  It was meant for the Jews because they were supposed to be a "nation of priests."
 

Quote

 

To discover God’s purpose in the Law, we must first look at its inception, and the things God said to Moses about it. When Moses and the people arrived at Mount Sinai, God said, “Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Exodus 19:5–6).

The first mention of the Law to the nation was as a covenant—a legal agreement between God and the people He chose. The Israelites were required to obey it fully if they were to receive its benefits.

 

https://gotquestions.org/Levitical-Law.html

 

Furthermore, you should check that Old Testament verse again, especially the boldened section.  Clearly, "enticement," was the reason for the killing of such person.  The guilty person was actively enticing the other to serve other gods.   

Let me put it this way: you'd probably want to kill anyone who enticed or lured your daughter to meet at a secluded place only to be given drugs, gang-raped and killed.

 

Furthermore, In our society right now.....we punish those who corrupt minors.   You're saying we're not a nation for peace just because we do that? 

 

 

 

Compare that with the Quran's teachings where simply disbelieving, deserves beheading.  In fact, it is ordered to pursue and kill non-believers.

 

Quran 8:7-9

Remember, O believers, when Allah promised you one of the two groups - that it would be yours - and you wished that the unarmed one would be yours. But Allah intended to establish the truth by His words and to eliminate the disbelievers

That He should establish the truth and abolish falsehood, even if the criminals disliked it.

 

[Remember] when you asked help of your Lord, and He answered you, "Indeed, I will reinforce you with a thousand from the angels, following one another."

 

 

Quran 8:12 - 13

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed.

I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved,

so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

 

That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger.

And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger - indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

https://quran.com/8

 

Some Islamic apologists say...."Oh they're taking the verses out of context.  They're cherry-picking.  I gave the link.  Check it out yourselves. 

 

 

Now, do you know what Jesus told the Apostles (or anyone preaching today)  to do when they come upon people or homes or towns  that didn't receive them, or didn't want to listen to them?   DO YOU?  Something along this line: 

JUST LEAVE!  I'LL DEAL WITH THEM SOMEDAY!

 

Matthew 10

¹⁴ If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. ¹⁵ Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by betsy