What do you think about my system ?

[Altai]

Now I draw our mission map; 

 If we need to get rid of "money", we have to seize all the sectors because in today's World no companies would like to produce/sell something for "free". They dont care about people, they just want to make more money, they sell our own properties to us. Then we have to do it ourselves. We have to use today's economic system for really a long time (30-40 years) until we complately seize all the sectors/markets. Finally we will have seized all the sectors because no companies will be able to deal with our soo cheap or free of charge products.

DUTY 1 We need to choose a sector for beginning and it should be one of the primary needs of people, should be helpful and suitable for a rapid growth .Footwear. We should open a shop first.  Then we should open other shops all over the city in every single districts. Finally we should create our own footwear factory. 

DUTY 2 Do the same thing in all other sectors. Choose the sectors of primary needs first.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Buy lands and buildings at every opportunity. 


When we will have seized all the sectors, we will start to distribute everything for free (If I still wont be assassinated). People will work in our companies. I can complately hand over the system to the state if I really trust them. 



Any question ? 

[Ash74]

1 hour ago, Altai said:

Now I draw our mission map; 

 If we need to get rid of "money", we have to seize all the sectors because in today's World no companies would like to produce/sell something for "free". They dont care about people, they just want to make more money, they sell our own properties to us. Then we have to do it ourselves. We have to use today's economic system for really a long time (30-40 years) until we complately seize all the sectors/markets. Finally we will have seized all the sectors because no companies will be able to deal with our soo cheap or free of charge products.

DUTY 1 We need to choose a sector for beginning and it should be one of the primary needs of people, should be helpful and suitable for a rapid growth .Footwear. We should open a shop first.  Then we should open other shops all over the city in every single districts. Finally we should create our own footwear factory. 

DUTY 2 Do the same thing in all other sectors. Choose the sectors of primary needs first.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Buy lands and buildings at every opportunity. 


When we will have seized all the sectors, we will start to distribute everything for free (If I still wont be assassinated). People will work in our companies. I can complately hand over the system to the state if I really trust them. 



Any question ? 

This is a joke right?

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Ash74 said:

This is a joke right?

 

Y'see why I get confused...?

[Ash74]

24 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

 

Y'see why I get confused...?

I fell for it. I originally thought it was a naive young lady trying to turn the world into a better place. Now she is talking about an economic dictatorship based on selling shoes. 

Would love to know what bank would approve that start up loan. 

 

[Altai]

7 hours ago, Ash74 said:

This is a joke right?

You are in my ignore list, do you know what does an "ignore list" mean ? so stop asking questions, I cant see it. 


 

I fell for it. I originally thought it was a naive young lady trying to turn the world into a better place. Now she is talking about an economic dictatorship based on selling shoes. 

Would love to know what bank would approve that start up loan. 

 

Just the opposite, I am going to seize the sectors on behalf of people. I have explained that before. This is why you are in my ignore list, you dont even listen me.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Altai

[Ash74]

6 hours ago, Altai said:

You are in my ignore list, do you know what does an "ignore list" mean ? so stop asking questions, I cant see it. 
 

If your system goes into effect will you ignore the negative issues that will come up as well?

 

6 hours ago, Altai said:

Just the opposite, I am going to seize the sectors on behalf of people. I have explained that before. This is why you are in my ignore list, you dont even listen me.

 You keep saying "seize" but I hope you mean take over or buy. But with that I must ask. How do you plan to do that when even walmart cannot get a 100 percent market share and they have deep pockets to force smaller retailers out. 

Unless you do mean "seize" and that has been done before and it generally as a rule does not work out well. 

[Altai]

If your system goes into effect will you ignore the negative issues that will come up as well?

 

 You keep saying "seize" but I hope you mean take over or buy. But with that I must ask. How do you plan to do that when even walmart cannot get a 100 percent market share and they have deep pockets to force smaller retailers out. 

Unless you do mean "seize" and that has been done before and it generally as a rule does not work out well. 

Do you use some kind of drugs or depression medicines or alcohol or what ? Are you alzheimer or panic attack ? Why do you repeat the same things in an obsessive manner despite I have replied all of them ? 

Edited October 28, 2016 by Altai

[Goddess]

Quote

Do you use some kind of drugs or depression medicines or alcohol or what ? Are you alzheimer or panic attack ? Why do you repeat the same things in an obsessive manner despite I have replied all of them ? 

I think he's asking because he explained that "seize" control of everything has a very negative connotation.  You said that's  not what you mean, but you keep using the word 'seize" control.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Goddess

[Ash74]

I would also love to know how you plan to get a 100 percent market share in all businesses while giving away the product. 

You say this will be a democracy and yet you failed to answer how you will win over the people and have yet to convince anybody on this forum that this is a plan that will work. 

I ask the same questions but you have yet to answer them. You just put us on ignore. 

[Altai]

2 hours ago, Ash74 said:

I would also love to know how you plan to get a 100 percent market share in all businesses while giving away the product. 

You say this will be a democracy and yet you failed to answer how you will win over the people and have yet to convince anybody on this forum that this is a plan that will work. 

I ask the same questions but you have yet to answer them. You just put us on ignore. 

You are trying to create problems to disrupt social peace. You are trying to create a revolt against my system by accusing me with irrelevant things which I have never said or mentioned. I just reply you because it was soo disturbing for me to see you while saying "Good luck with the World domination thing." when I said I put you in ignore. I dont want to hurt anyone but you are pushing your luck soo much. 

I will win over the people because everyone loves to have something for "free". If there are other companies applying the same pricing system with my system, then this is also what we want companies to do but there is NO such companies. Walfart still sell products quite expensive when compared to cost prices. You just think that "high prices" of Walfart is really soo cheap because you have been used to buy from ultra-high prices. Walfart is still ripping you off. 

I will probably have 100% of the market because all the other companies will have to put up the shutters against my system. ( AGAIN, I have explained that in pre-posts) In my system people will work, will produce and will eat the pie equally. In today's system, people works, they produce and they only eat the crumbs. 

Edited October 28, 2016 by Altai

[Ash74]

4 hours ago, Altai said:

You are trying to create problems to disrupt social peace. You are trying to create a revolt against my system by accusing me with irrelevant things which I have never said or mentioned.
 

All I have done is pointed out several issues that would come up. If you cannot handle one person arguing about the minor details than how are you going to handle several million people complaining about issues.

How would you handle a group of people revolting against your system?

How would you ignore them?

Or is the plan to banish them if they do obey as you have stated?

4 hours ago, Altai said:

I will win over the people because everyone loves to have something for "free". If there are other companies applying the same pricing system with my system, then this is also what we want companies to do but there is NO such companies.
 

How will you give things away for free?

You need to purchase these materials from other businesses before you have anything to give away.

How would you keep the talent to build this monopoly you are trying to create if you do not have the finances to start it and maintain it?

Your plan to take over all the companies in a society to do away with money would first take trillions of dollars.

4 hours ago, Altai said:

 Walfart still sell products quite expensive when compared to cost prices. You just think that "high prices" of Walfart is really soo cheap because you have been used to buy from ultra-high prices. Walfart is still ripping you off. 

 

I agree I loath walmart as well so I do not shop there. That is my choice I make with my free will. Free will would be another one of the "irrelevant thing's" that will come up that is against your system.

 

4 hours ago, Altai said:

I will probably have 100% of the market because all the other companies will have to put up the shutters against my system. ( AGAIN, I have explained that in pre-posts) In my system people will work, will produce and will eat the pie equally. In today's system, people works, they produce and they only eat the crumbs. 

What you are talking about is socialism and it has not had much success and has been tried several times before.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Human nature,greed, incompetence and just plain laziness makes this a failed system.

I am sorry I hurt your feelings but I just do not see this system working.

[Altai]

11 hours ago, Ash74 said:

All I have done is pointed out several issues that would come up. If you cannot handle one person arguing about the minor details than how are you going to handle several million people complaining about issues.

How would you handle a group of people revolting against your system?

How would you ignore them?

Or is the plan to banish them if they do obey as you have stated?

You wont be ignored when my system start to be applied complately, you will be neutralized by security forces. You should not revolt against the social order, its called "terrorism". If you have a problem, you have to solve it through the legal ways. My system is for people.

 

Quote

How will you give things away for free?

You need to purchase these materials from other businesses before you have anything to give away.
 

I have explained that before. We have to use current economic system at least for 30-40 years. We cant give something for free while we buy the raw materials by using money. We can only give it quite cheap but giving something quite cheap will cause it to take quite long time to achieve our aims. Then there is only one way to survive, we have to be everywhere because more raindrops will fall in a wide-mouth bucket and will fasten us. We will start to give something for free when we will have all the related sectors with that business. We wont pay money ourselves to receieve something. 

We will start with a small shop. Then we will spread these small shops everywhere in the city. All of their profits will be allocated to open an atelier and then a factory. 


 

Quote

How would you keep the talent to build this monopoly you are trying to create if you do not have the finances to start it and maintain it?

I have a father. He will help me to start. We also have a company and I am experienced about how the things work.


 

Quote

Your plan to take over all the companies in a society to do away with money would first take trillions of dollars.

We dont have to take over all the companies through purchase. When we start to give something for free, they will also be gone and market will be ours only. But you are right, we will still in need of quite high amounts of money.

 

Quote

I agree I loath walmart as well so I do not shop there. That is my choice I make with my free will. Free will would be another one of the "irrelevant thing's" that will come up that is against your system.

You are confused because you always imagine a system where you will live as a restricted person. It wont be different than today's World when it comes to options. Will be much more quality and easy to reach. 

 

Quote

What you are talking about is socialism and it has not had much success and has been tried several times before.

I have no idea about any other systems and why they failed. If its failed, then they did something contradictory to the nature. It would never fail as long as it would be in harmony with nature.

 

Quote

Human nature,greed, incompetence and just plain laziness makes this a failed system

These are the bad sides of human nature. If you feed your bad sides, you will be a bad person. Greedy, incpmpetence and lazy persons are also aware of it that what they do is something wrong but they keep doing the same things because they choose to be bad persons. They feed their bad sides. In my system, we will feed the true side.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Altai

[Ash74]

Alrighty....

Good luck. Keep us posted. 

[Altai]

Now I have read Utopia from Thomas More on the recommendation of an economist and its full of nonsense from the renaissance era. I have read Republic from Plato and its full of nonsense too. Today I am going to read The Wealth of Nations from Adam Smith. I hope it can develop my thoughts unlike other two books.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Altai

[Ash74]

3 hours ago, Altai said:

Now I have read Utopia from Thomas More on the recommendation of an economist and its full of nonsense from the renaissance era. I have read Republic from Plato and its full of nonsense too. Today I am going to read The Wealth of Nations from Adam Smith. I hope it can develop my thoughts unlike other two books.

I suggest Animal Farm by George Orwell. 

[JamesHackerMP]

21 hours ago, Altai said:

Now I have read Utopia from Thomas More on the recommendation of an economist and its full of nonsense from the renaissance era. I have read Republic from Plato and its full of nonsense too. Today I am going to read The Wealth of Nations from Adam Smith. I hope it can develop my thoughts unlike other two books.

I've read the first 80 pp of the unabridged version of the Wealth of Nations.  Trust me, it should open your eyes to the way markets work, but it is nothing Utopian about it.  It's how the real world works.

[JamesHackerMP]

And I would also suggest "1984" by George Orwell.  There's a reason they call taking over whole parts of the economy and trying to eliminate money "Orwellian".

[Altai]

Some updates about my system.


During the transition into my system from current corrupt system, we need to aim the people with less montly income. This should be the aimed price while we are determining the price of service or products. Price is just an imaginary value we create in our minds. We should determine the prices based on labor given for it. Working hours would be the first indicator and working intensity would be the second indicator. Driwing a bus for one hour and crushing stones with sledgehammer for one hour cannot be considered as the same labor value. The guy crushing stones should work less for the same amounth of salary. According to Google, minimum wage in Canada is about $12. If we think that a person works 9 hours a day, it makes $3250 montly. Final pricing will be total allowance/total product or total service. So if 10 persons are working to produce 5000 computers monthly, the final price of one computer should be $6,5 profit margin plus raw material costs, one step ahead to jump in money free life. 

In today's life, these prices are not obtainable because of multiple ownership of sectors and greed of humanbeing always for more. Noone would like to live with enough for them, we all would like to have more even if its useless and unneccessary for us. Even if we were able to obtain these price in a sector, it wont work for people other sectors will just fill the saving gap with raising prices in their own sectors.  So if you are buying a mobile phone for $1000 and a let say an hamburger for $10 and if you take hamburger prices $5 down, soon your mobile phone will be $1100. The prices will always be balanced according to your purchasing power. In this case we need to proportionate product/service prices with labor based on working hour and working intensity. While we are determining working intensity, we can consider calorie-based energy needed to perform a job. For example hoeing the ground an hour requires three times more energy than driving car an hour, so a farmer will work three times less than a driver to receieve same emount of salary. 


In today's World, a person living with minimum wage has no right to have anything other than his/her essential necessities. These are sheltering, food, clothing, transportation and personal care. 



When we look at essential food necessity, daily calorie intake for a person, could be considered as average 3000kcal. We need to receieve %60 of it from carbohydrates, %15 from proteins and %25 from fat. I accept rice as the source for carbohydrates(monthly 6kg), red meat for protein (monthly 10 kg) and olive oil for healty fats (monthly 9kg).
One person alone could process 100 acres of rice land as an estimate (during 6 months), one person alone could raise 25 meat bulls (during 12 months), one person alone could process 200 acres of olive garden (6 months). 750 kg rice per acres means 1.44x month,  28.8x for red meat and 1.8x for olive oil. 


For clothes, trousers, shirts, jacket, shoes and underwears, I consider one person could procude a set of all in one hour, daily 9 sets and monthly 270 sets, in this case one set equal to 5x considered buying new ones every two months. 


For transportation, a guy driving a transportation vehicle could make a service of round trip in one hour, daily totaly 9 trips and 40 person per trip. 10800 persons per month, 0.3x per person for a trip, monthly 18x.


For sheltering, a guy alone could build a home in 4 months, 12.000x for a home, for 30 year lifetime, 5 years of payment period, 200x per month


For personal care, cleaning products, parfumes, I accept it as the same with clothes but per month, so 10x


Totally; 10x + 200x + 18x + 5x + 2x + 28x + 2x = 265x  ===========> 3250/265= 12


For food: $385/month
For sheltering: $2400/month
For transportation: $216/month
For clothes: $60/month
For personal care: $60/month


TOTAL: 385+2400+216+60+60= $3120 (because I did take the numbers without decimals)


These prices are the maximums for a person to live with minimum wage. If you are buying these things from higher, you are suffering due to unfair profit margins. If you are buying from lower prices, then producers are suffering due to unfair profit margins. Ofcourse this is a random examination, it needs to be much more serious. 




 

[blackbird]

On 10/10/2016 at 8:15 PM, ?Impact said:

 

I don't know if Marx explicitly banned it, but he certainly had a very negative attitude to religion. He called it the opiate of the masses, it served the rulers by giving the peasants a false hope.

According to a little book I have called "Was Karl Marx a Satanist", he was a Satanist.   At a young age, he gave the impression he was a very devout christian, but after he left school, he apparently suddenly changed and rejected christianity and eventually became a Satanist. 

Communist ideology is in total opposition to the teachings of christianity which is probably why all religion was banned after the revolutions in Russia and China. 

[ReeferMadness]

On 10/10/2016 at 8:47 PM, Ash74 said:

Plus the minor detail that kills this whole concept is just "why would I work?"

If I could sit at home playing with my kids,watching TV, sitting out in my backyard ,etc,etc if I didn't need too?

What if 5 billion people all said that?

How would you force people to do their fair share?

This would turn into a disaster very quickly and is a silly concept.

Some people will work no matter what they get paid because, as Altai says, they get fulfillment.  Some people will find a way not to work ( or at least not to be productive), no matter what.  And there is a lot of work that is done in the world (much of it highly paid) that really doesn't serve any useful purpose.  And most of what remains will be automated in the coming few decades.

Between automation, elimination of non-value-added work, and people who are naturally motivated (and modest added incentives as required), it's easy to imagine a "work optional" world.   I know the idea makes lots of peoples' heads explode but it's one possible future.  If we're smart enough to seize on it.

 

[ReeferMadness]

On 10/25/2016 at 11:26 AM, The_Squid said:

How would you convince someone to love digging ditches?

How many people actually dig ditches by hand anymore?  In fact, with advances in AI, it's close to the point where you just ask for a ditch to be dug.  Why does it seem that these discussions always assume technology from Adam Smith's time?

Quote

 If I choose a job I love, then I guess I will be a racecar driver.

I think that we need an economic system that reflects the fact that we live in a finite world and our first priority should be to ensure that everyone has the basics before we indulge in our fantasies.  And we should be restricting economic activities to that which will fit into a sustainable future, reflecting the best scientific consensus at the time.  Under those conditions, I'm not sure there would be any racecar drivers. 

Quote

How do you convince someone to take a really stressful, demanding job if it would be much, much easier for them to work as a supermodel photographer and get the exact same rewards for doing so?

I think that you need to ask what makes the job stressful and demanding.  A lot of stress is caused when people feel trapped in their current jobs (for a number of reasons).  Sometimes its' the people you work with or the fact that people are doing repetitive, boring tasks.  There are things that could be thought of as demanding and stressful (surgeon, astronaut) but a lot of the people doing those things love what they do.

[ReeferMadness]

On 10/9/2016 at 3:25 PM, Altai said:

I am open for additional ideas and positive-negative criticism about my aim to shape life in my country first and World life secondly.


First, I want a World where all the people live fairly. All people should be able to benefit equally from the opportunities of the World. I was born in the World and people who was arrived the World before me dont have such a right to limit my rights, like as building borders and creating different countries, privating lands and claiming ownership, privating underground and surface riches, dividing people into classes (for exmp; boss and worker), having different opportunities based on financial power. 

To ensure that, we need to eliminate "money". All the needs of people should be met by the state for free. Food, clothing, housing facilities, transport facilities, health facilities. Wont we work ? Ofcourse we will work but we wont work to make money, we will work just because we love our jobs. You will have a nice house with a nice kitchen, you will have a nice car, you will have your daily need of food. We will just be expected to make our job as happy persons without any concerns about daily life. 

This is similar to communism but not the same. For example, religions are prohibited in communism but its not in my system. You have to live equal and a poor life in communism but in my system you will live fair and luxury life. 


Would you like to live in such a country ? Why and why not ? What would be the bad and good sides of such a country ?

I like the way you think but I wouldn't go about it in exactly the way you are.

There's no reason to get rid of money - it's just a means of exchange.  And there is no reason for people to be exactly equal in wealth.  However, the current levels of disparity of wealth and income constitute some of the most destructive factors in society.  People don't need to be rewarded with billions or even millions to be motivated or happy.

One area that has always been poorly served by capitalist economies is high quality, low cost, basic goods.  This would make a natural entry point for government to set up highly automated, manufacturing and distribution of these types of products.  I can think of lots of examples.  I don't care much about fashion - I just want shoes that fit and last.  Major appliances used to last 20-25 years, now they're sent for "recycling" after an average of 7 years.  

 

[Altai]

21 minutes ago, ReeferMadness said:

I like the way you think but I wouldn't go about it in exactly the way you are.

There's no reason to get rid of money - it's just a means of exchange.  And there is no reason for people to be exactly equal in wealth.  However, the current levels of disparity of wealth and income constitute some of the most destructive factors in society.  People don't need to be rewarded with billions or even millions to be motivated or happy.

One area that has always been poorly served by capitalist economies is high quality, low cost, basic goods.  This would make a natural entry point for government to set up highly automated, manufacturing and distribution of these types of products.  I can think of lots of examples.  I don't care much about fashion - I just want shoes that fit and last.  Major appliances used to last 20-25 years, now they're sent for "recycling" after an average of 7 years.  

 

Money causes disparity. People also wont need money because all their needs will be met by state. If they need more food, they dont have to buy it, state have to meet their needs. Its working people's right to have anything with highest quality in state standarts. 

[ReeferMadness]

On 11/18/2017 at 3:39 PM, Altai said:

Money causes disparity. People also wont need money because all their needs will be met by state. If they need more food, they dont have to buy it, state have to meet their needs. Its working people's right to have anything with highest quality in state standarts. 

You still need a way of allocating scarce resources to the people.  There is a difference between what people want and what they need.

[Altai]

6 hours ago, ReeferMadness said:

You still need a way of allocating scarce resources to the people.  There is a difference between what people want and what they need.

Yes there are things that in limited quantities and apportioning them based on money power is injustice. Lets imagine there are two guys, one is younger therefore have less working hours and therefore have less money. The older guy is just the opposite. There is one bread and both need bread. Do you think that the guy with more money have more right to have this bread ? No I dont think so, whoever need it has right to have it. Only necessity we want from them is to be working persons if they are physically and mentally healthy persons. Even if they are healty and they dont want to work, they still has right to have this bread, the only difference they have to make their bread themselves.