Ash74 Posted October 12, 2016 Report Share Posted October 12, 2016 But why try and be a doctor or vet when the stock clerk next door receives the same rewards? Where is the challenge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted October 12, 2016 Report Share Posted October 12, 2016 Few children know what they want to do for the rest of their lives. And many adults who genuinely enjoyed their jobs, get to a point in life where they want to try a new career. I did. Your system seems to be VERY freedom-limiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted October 12, 2016 Report Share Posted October 12, 2016 1 hour ago, Ash74 said: But why try and be a doctor or vet when the stock clerk next door receives the same rewards? I don't think that is a problem. Many people would want to be a doctor for the rewards (non-monetary) it provides. Medicine can be a very satisfying field, although you will have to maintain a standard of care. The bigger problem will be jobs like sewer & septic system maintenance, poultry factory, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash74 Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 1 hour ago, ?Impact said: I don't think that is a problem. Many people would want to be a doctor for the rewards (non-monetary) it provides. Medicine can be a very satisfying field, although you will have to maintain a standard of care. The bigger problem will be jobs like sewer & septic system maintenance, poultry factory, etc. I will dispute that doctors generally feel a huge emotional reward for what they do. I for one feel they deserve more than the job I perform but at the same time I feel I deserve more than a floor cleaner. I do not dispute it is a necessary job but it it does not require the education and the knowledge then my position. Why should a more difficult job be not rewarded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 5 hours ago, Ash74 said: But why try and be a doctor or vet when the stock clerk next door receives the same rewards? Where is the challenge? Is money the only reason people take one job over another? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 There must be many reasons people take jobs. Money is certainly a major one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash74 Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, cybercoma said: Is money the only reason people take one job over another? In this day an age any job that pays a decent wage is hard to come by. Edited October 13, 2016 by Michael Hardner spelling correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 16 hours ago, Ash74 said: But why try and be a doctor or vet when the stock clerk next door receives the same rewards? Where is the challenge? Because you "love" to be a doctor. Your motivation is your love and desire for your job. Your motivation is not "money". Few children know what they want to do for the rest of their lives. And many adults who genuinely enjoyed their jobs, get to a point in life where they want to try a new career. I did. Your system seems to be VERY freedom-limiting. As I said, we can shape the system together. Instead of trying to kick my sand castle, you should help me to strengthen its walls. This is a good point, people cannot always make the right decisions in their life and they may need some changes. Our aim is happy persons. We cant force people to do a job which they dont want to do. This will cause an unhappy society and unsuccessful business life. My system will help you to change your job. I don't think that is a problem. Many people would want to be a doctor for the rewards (non-monetary) it provides. Medicine can be a very satisfying field, although you will have to maintain a standard of care. The bigger problem will be jobs like sewer & septic system maintenance, poultry factory, etc. This is true, in today's World, many people do their jobs to make money. Someone want to be a doctor because he/she dreams a summerhouse and a luxury car in the garage. Sewer cleaner dreams the same things and this is why he/she is doing such a dirty job. As you realize, noone would like to be a sewer cleaner, today there are sewer cleaners not because of they make much more money than a doctor but because of he/she have to get his/her children something to eat. This is unfair and unjust. In my system, we can solve this issue in a way, for example people would clean their own sewers themselves or sewer cleaners would rest more than others. We can equalize the difficulty of jobs in a way. I will dispute that doctors generally feel a huge emotional reward for what they do. I for one feel they deserve more than the job I perform but at the same time I feel I deserve more than a floor cleaner. I do not dispute it is a necessary job but it it does not require the education and the knowledge then my position. Why should a more difficult job be not rewarded? You cant live in my system. Is money the only reason people take one job over another? Generally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash74 Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 4:53 AM, Altai said: 5 minutes ago, Altai said: You can't live in my system So out of the 10 people that have commented on your system I am the first to be banished . What will you do with the hundreds of millions of people that refuse? Where will we go when there are no countries or borders? Will a wall be built to keep us out or perhaps to keep the people in your system in? That has been done. I didn't work out well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 11 hours ago, bcsapper said: There must be many reasons people take jobs. Money is certainly a major one. But I asked if it was the only reason. 10 hours ago, Ash74 said: In this day an age any job that pays a decent wage is hard to come by. True, but also not really relevant to what I'm asking. 10 minutes ago, Altai said: Generally. I disagree with you. So here's my point, I can imagine plenty of jobs where you couldn't possibly pay me enough to do them. I'm just not interested in them, don't have the skills needed, or don't like that kind of work. My best friend is a mechanic. I couldn't turn a wrench to save my life, but more importantly, it's not something that ever interested me. He loves his work. He loves working on things like that. Me? If I was forced into that job, I would hate it. I'd despise every minute of it and I wouldn't get good at it. That's just one reason. Some people just take whatever job is available close to them because they're attached to a geographic region, maybe because they have close ties to people there. Perhaps they have to stay close to sick parents for whom they care or maybe they have children in school and don't want to take them away from their friends. Anyway, I could give numerous examples of reasons people take jobs outside of the money, career prestige is another one, opportunities for advancement is another, getting along with or working well with colleagues is another. If you take a minute to think about it, I'm sure you will see that there are many reasons to pick one job over another that has nothing to do with money. So it goes with a moneyless society. It's a different way of thinking and very hard to imagine because that's not the society we live in. But remember, Adam Smith's self-interest doctrine was about bartering, not making a paycheck. You've got to consider that the modern capitalist finance state is relatively new in the grand scheme of things. There's been banking since before the Medicis in Renaissance Italy even, but paid labour is relatively new. In our society, the turning point for most historians is the Enclosure, the legal process where communal lands were handed over to landowners. People could no longer subsist on their own and had to find work. They had to sell their labour to survive now and began moving into the cities looking for factory work or selling their labour to farm-owning landholders. This was the birth of the working class. So that idea of going to job for a paycheck was literally born in the 18th century. Today, we can't imagine anything but this system and anyone who suggests otherwise is looked upon like the raving "lunatic" in the cave, telling his friends that those are just shadows on the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Just now, cybercoma said: But I asked if it was the only reason. Yes you did, and I said that there must be many reasons people take jobs. Money is certainly a major one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 35 minutes ago, Altai said: Instead of trying to kick my sand castle, you should help me to strengthen its walls. I am strengthening its walls. I'm showing you where they are weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ash74 said: So out of the 10 people that have commented on your system I am the first to be banished . What will you do with the hundreds of millions of people that refuse? Where will we go when there are no countries or borders? Will a wall be built to keep us out or perhaps to keep the people in your system in? That has been done. I didn't work out well. Yes because as far as I understand you want to do your job to make money and satisfy your personal ego. This would be the last thing I want in my system. It will be a democratic system, people will decide themselves whether or not to apply for this system. They would vote for me as their president and I would bring justice in the World. If there are someones disturbed by justice, I really cant do anything for them, I only can provide them a boat and two paddles or a flight ticket or whatever they want to leave my country. Edited October 13, 2016 by Altai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 1 hour ago, cybercoma said: Anyway, I could give numerous examples of reasons people take jobs outside of the money, career prestige is another one, opportunities for advancement is another, getting along with or working well with colleagues is another. If you take a minute to think about it, I'm sure you will see that there are many reasons to pick one job over another that has nothing to do with money. So it goes with a moneyless society. It's a different way of thinking and very hard to imagine because that's not the society we live in. But remember, Adam Smith's self-interest doctrine was about bartering, not making a paycheck. Yes there are also such persons and they will ease the transition process from current system to my system. There will be billions of people who want to live in my system, noone would dislike the idea of "justice". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash74 Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 1 hour ago, Altai said: Yes because as far as I understand you want to do your job to make money and satisfy your personal ego. This would be the last thing I want in my system. It will be a democratic system, people will decide themselves whether or not to apply for this system. They would vote for me as their president and I would bring justice in the World. If there are someones disturbed by justice, I really cant do anything for them, I only can provide them a boat and two paddles or a flight ticket or whatever they want to leave my country. But your original post had the concept of no countries. So where would the "non justice" people go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 8 hours ago, Altai said: ...sewer cleaners would rest more than others. We can equalize the difficulty of jobs in a way. That is an interesting idea. You are required to put in 'x' hours of work, but for some fields where it is hard to get people the 'x' could be [a lot] less. Now some people will put in more than 'x' hours of work because they love the work they are doing and are driven by a desire to do a good job. Perhaps the more hours you put in, you would be allowed to retire early. The challenge of course is both tracking the hours, and monitoring the quality of the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash74 Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 34 minutes ago, ?Impact said: That is an interesting idea. You are required to put in 'x' hours of work, but for some fields where it is hard to get people the 'x' could be [a lot] less. Now some people will put in more than 'x' hours of work because they love the work they are doing and are driven by a desire to do a good job. Perhaps the more hours you put in, you would be allowed to retire early. The challenge of course is both tracking the hours, and monitoring the quality of the work. That is a good idea. Of course by this time I will have already been shot or sent to a labor camp. Same could be done for those positions like air traffic controller or other high stress jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 (edited) 21 hours ago, Ash74 said: But your original post had the concept of no countries. So where would the "non justice" people go? What we can do for you while 7.499.999.999 of total World population want to live in my system and if you dont want to live in my system ? You should obey the decisions of majority. Edited October 14, 2016 by Altai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted October 14, 2016 Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 4 minutes ago, Altai said: What we can do for you while 7.499.999.999 of total World population want to live in my system You will first need to convince those 7.499.999.999 people. Judging by the progress so far, you have a long way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash74 Posted October 14, 2016 Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Altai said: What we can do for you while 7.499.999.999 of total World population want to live in my system and if you dont want to live in my system ? You should obey the decisions of majority. How do you plan on getting the majority on board when you have yet to get the majority on this site to agree with you? The people that have commented are from the right and left sides of the fence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 27 minutes ago, Ash74 said: How do you plan on getting the majority on board when you have yet to get the majority on this site to agree with you? The people that have commented are from the right and left sides of the fence. Only ultra rich people would reject such a great offer and they constitutes a very very tiny part of total World population . They live quite over the average life standards which could be provided by my system in a fair way among all the citizens. They will lose many of their wealths when my system starts to be implemented. Rich people (not ultra), middle class and sub class people will accept my offer because they will have much higher life standards than their current situation. In my system, you cant have buildings, you cant have lands, you cant personalize the common properties of the World people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash74 Posted October 14, 2016 Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 3 hours ago, Altai said: Only ultra rich people would reject such a great offer and they constitutes a very very tiny part of total World population . They live quite over the average life standards which could be provided by my system in a fair way among all the citizens. They will lose many of their wealths when my system starts to be implemented. Rich people (not ultra), middle class and sub class people will accept my offer because they will have much higher life standards than their current situation. In my system, you cant have buildings, you cant have lands, you cant personalize the common properties of the World people. So you are giving to just take what is not yours or the governments and deal out how you see fit. Yeah. Gotta say I do not like your plan and you best start with building an army because you are going to have to kill a lot of people. Even the middle and low class still own property and you are planning on taking that too. It is a nice dream. A very naive one but nice I grant you. But anything you do to implement it will fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 10/14/2016 at 2:12 PM, Altai said: Only ultra rich people would reject such a great offer Wow, a lot of ultra rich people at MLW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 15.10.2016 at 0:56 AM, Ash74 said: So you are giving to just take what is not yours or the governments and deal out how you see fit. Yeah. Gotta say I do not like your plan and you best start with building an army because you are going to have to kill a lot of people. Even the middle and low class still own property and you are planning on taking that too. It is a nice dream. A very naive one but nice I grant you. But anything you do to implement it will fail. LoL nope I dont need an army, it will be a democratic system. Maybe we would just need a police force to suppress minority riots. LoL anyway stop it, I dont want to imagine that such brutal things will happen but you are making me think about it. Looks like to say "everything will be perfect if you dont think about a white rabbit" and I cant get rid of thinking about a white rabbit because you remind me white rabbits. Yes, even middle and low class has their own properties and this is injustice. I want my share from their properties, I want my share from Jamaica, I want my share from Iceland, I want my share from Northern Korea. I was born in the World and I have rights in each peace of lands of the World. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 1 hour ago, ?Impact said: Wow, a lot of ultra rich people at MLW. or a lot of people at MLW who are quite hopeful that they will be rich in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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