What do you think about my system ?

[Ash74]

42 minutes ago, Altai said:

or a lot of people at MLW who are quite hopeful that they will be rich in the future.

or we have a little knowledge of history

[Goddess]

On 10/13/2016 at 8:06 AM, Altai said:

I want my share from their properties, I want my share from Jamaica, I want my share from Iceland, I want my share from Northern Korea. I was born in the World and I have rights in each peace of lands of the World. 

 

There are a lot of "I"s in your statement.  A lot of assertions about your "rights".  

I hope your system would take into account other people's rights as well.  

The other thing that bothers me is that you would not be able to live in ALL areas of the world at the same time.  There might be a place that you prefer to live.  Why on earth would you think you have the "right" to come into some other person's area of the world as a VISITOR and demand your "rights" from the people who actually live there?  The people who actually live in certain areas know the climate, know the area.  You would not.

Your system seems to be made for YOU only.

Also, I like having a place of my own.  I imagine a lot of people feel that way - it's human nature.  I wouldn't want to live under your system where Altai's "rights"  and "wants" override everyone else's.  I wouldn't want to live under your system with Altai being the one who makes all my decisions (besides the color of shoes I want to wear, apparently I can choose that for myself.)  

[Altai]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

 

There are a lot of "I"s in your statement.  A lot of assertions about your "rights".  

I hope your system would take into account other people's rights as well.  

The other thing that bothers me is that you would not be able to live in ALL areas of the world at the same time.  There might be a place that you prefer to live.  Why on earth would you think you have the "right" to come into some other person's area of the world as a VISITOR and demand your "rights" from the people who actually live there?  The people who actually live in certain areas know the climate, know the area.  You would not.

Your system seems to be made for YOU only.

Also, I like having a place of my own.  I imagine a lot of people feel that way - it's human nature.  I wouldn't want to live under your system where Altai's "rights"  and "wants" override everyone else's.  I wouldn't want to live under your system with Altai being the one who makes all my decisions (besides the color of shoes I want to wear, apparently I can choose that for myself.)  

I started to think that you are trying to troll my topics.

[Goddess]

On 10/13/2016 at 8:06 AM, Altai said:

I started to think that you are trying to troll my topics.

 

............or maybe we just have similar interests ??

You originally said that you welcomed feedback, but I see now that you actually do not.  If you only want people to say how wonderful your plan is, then perhaps you should stipulate that.

In the meantime, I will continue to post on and read whatever topics interest me.

See how "rights" work?  

 

 

[Goddess]

I'd like you to know, Altai, that I DO think it's wonderful that as a young person, you are so interested in the world and have such a desire to make it a better place.  That is a commendable and quite daunting task.

When I was raising my children, they would sometimes say things like you: "When I grow up, I'm going to start my own country!  It will have this...., that..... or the other thing!"  And I would smile and pat them on the head and say, "Great!  Draw me a picture of what your country would look like."

But as they got older, they needed more direction.  Someone to show them the pitfalls of some of their plans.  

If you are old enough to post on a political forum, then you should be old enough to receive some criticisms of your ideas.  You should be able to recognize the value of critisms.  Surely you are beyond the "pat on the head and draw me a picture" phase of childhood.

I say this fondly so you know my true feelings.

[Altai]

49 minutes ago, Goddess said:

 

............or maybe we just have similar interests ??

You originally said that you welcomed feedback, but I see now that you actually do not.  If you only want people to say how wonderful your plan is, then perhaps you should stipulate that.

In the meantime, I will continue to post on and read whatever topics interest me.

See how "rights" work?  

 

 

I have really no tolerance against people who deliiberately try to distort my words or try his/her best not to understand something. I like to discuss with open minded and good intentioned person, also no open minded person would be bad intentioned.

I really dont think that you are a good intentioned person. Despite its quite clear that I defend the rights all of the World people in this topic and while I am trying to explain it by citing examples from myself behalf of all the World people, you are deliberately trying to distort it and trying to tout me as a dictator who is working for her own interests. 

[Goddess]

OK.

[Ash74]

48 minutes ago, Altai said:

I have really no tolerance against people who deliiberately try to distort my words or try his/her best not to understand something. I like to discuss with open minded and good intentioned person, also no open minded person would be bad intentioned.

I really dont think that you are a good intentioned person. Despite its quite clear that I defend the rights all of the World people in this topic and while I am trying to explain it by citing examples from myself behalf of all the World people, you are deliberately trying to distort it and trying to tout me as a dictator who is working for her own interests. 

 Wow. 

So any that don't agree with you are just out to get ya. 

You have had several people with very different political views all agree that YOUR plan will not work. 

But you feel we are all just mean. 

OK. How will you go up against the real dictators? 

What about the countries that vote against your plan?

You plan to banish those that do not agree with you reminds of the greedy would that flee Cuba on rafts heading towards the monster that is the U.S.A. 

You might have a hard time winning them over. Americans get pissy when you mention maybe not everybody should have a legal right to a surface to air missile in their backyard. 

[Altai]

9 minutes ago, Ash74 said:

 Wow. 

So any that don't agree with you are just out to get ya. 

You have had several people with very different political views all agree that YOUR plan will not work. 

But you feel we are all just mean. 

OK. How will you go up against the real dictators? 

What about the countries that vote against your plan?

You plan to banish those that do not agree with you reminds of the greedy would that flee Cuba on rafts heading towards the monster that is the U.S.A. 

You might have a hard time winning them over. Americans get pissy when you mention maybe not everybody should have a legal right to a surface to air missile in their backyard. 

Ops, now I will put you in ignore list too. I didnt ignore Goddess for not being agree with me. I ignored him/her for his/her deliberate distortions of my words. You did the same thing. Despite I have explained why I ignored him/her, you deliberately accused me of ignoring someone for not being agree with me. I dont limit your freedom, you can still post, I just dont want to see your posts. This is my right. Goodbye.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Altai

[Ash74]

8 minutes ago, Altai said:

Ops, now I will put you in ignore list too. I didnt ignore Goddess for not being agree with me. I ignored him/her for his/her deliberate distortions of my words. You did the same thing. Despite I have explained why I ignored him/her, you deliberately accused me of ignoring someone for not being agree with me. I dont limit your freedom, you can still post, I just dont want to see your posts. This is my right. Goodbye.

Bye. 

Good luck with the world domination thing. 

[Goddess]

Altai, I think people have been very indulgent with you because of your stated age.  We have all entertained your ideas and thoughts on things.

I think it is you who is being very disrespectful to adults.

[Altai]

If we back to my system. I made some plans to achieve my aim. I know that noone will want to lost their company, including my father. Companies will want to produce service or products and keep making money. Lower economic class (%99 of the World people) will always work all their lifes and will try to provide at least a home and some other needs, maybe some saved money to provide a good future for their kids. 

What we should do to shake golden thrones ? 

- First, we need to provide products in all sectors that sufficiently inexpensive to be purchased by people from all economic classes.


How we could produce products in all sectors that sufficiently inexpensive to be purchased by people from all economic classes ?

- It will be so difficult to produce somethings immediately. We should start with products produced by other companies. We also cant start with all the sectors at the sametime but we can go step by step. I chose footwear industry at first. Because I love shoes and it makes me sad when I see someones with old shoes. 


What will happen when we start to produce products ourselves ? 

- We will start to sell them much cheaper. We will produce quite cheap and quality enough. Small size and midsize footwear companies will start to go bankrupt (sorry). Famous brands will still stand until we start to produce equally qualified with them. Then they will go bankrupt too.


After all ? 

- We will seize all the sectors and everything will be for free. 


 

[Ash74]

55 minutes ago, Altai said:

If we back to my system. I made some plans to achieve my aim. I know that noone will want to lost their company, including my father. Companies will want to produce service or products and keep making money. Lower economic class (%99 of the World people) will always work all their lifes and will try to provide at least a home and some other needs, maybe some saved money to provide a good future for their kids. 

What we should do to shake golden thrones ? 

- First, we need to provide products in all sectors that sufficiently inexpensive to be purchased by people from all economic classes.


How we could produce products in all sectors that sufficiently inexpensive to be purchased by people from all economic classes ?

- It will be so difficult to produce somethings immediately. We should start with products produced by other companies. We also cant start with all the sectors at the sametime but we can go step by step. I chose footwear industry at first. Because I love shoes and it makes me sad when I see someones with old shoes. 


What will happen when we start to produce products ourselves ? 

- We will start to sell them much cheaper. We will produce quite cheap and quality enough. Small size and midsize footwear companies will start to go bankrupt (sorry). Famous brands will still stand until we start to produce equally qualified with them. Then they will go bankrupt too.


After all ? 

- We will seize all the sectors and everything will be for free. 


 

Read some history. 

Look into why dictators came into power and how they sold it to the people. 

 

[?Impact]

Humans are strange creatures. You know what is best for them, but seldom do they fall in line and listen. They have opinions, which are obviously flawed. Why can't they see my logic. How can I make them listen and comply?

[Altai]

4 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Humans are strange creatures. You know what is best for them, but seldom do they fall in line and listen. They have opinions, which are obviously flawed. Why can't they see my logic. How can I make them listen and comply?

Logic does not vary from person to person. Logic is something universal and the same for everyone. This is how we create social moral rules. Logic would only bring us to the wrong results when its based on wrong informations as @Benz said in another topic before.

So still noone is able to find any informations that the logic of my system bring us to the bad-wrong results. Then this mean: All people reject it in an unreasonable way.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Altai

[Ash74]

4 hours ago, Altai said:

Logic does not vary from person to person. Logic is something universal and the same for everyone. This is how we create social moral rules. Logic would only bring us to the wrong results when its based on wrong informations as @Benz said in another topic before.

So still noone is able to find any informations that the logic of my system bring us to the bad-wrong results. Then this mean: All people reject it in an unreasonable way.

A good point but even if your system was logical does not guarantee that it will succeed. The point many people have made is that the flaw is in the fact your system ignores human behavior. 

 

[?Impact]

8 hours ago, Altai said:

Logic does not vary from person to person. Logic is something universal and the same for everyone. 

 

We are not talking simplistic logic where all the parameters are known and agreed to. We are talking about complex interactions between billions of people and external events were we have little or no control. No matter how brilliant a model you create on paper, once you put it into the real world you will quickly see countless interactions that could not be predicted. I encourage you to continue your work and develop your model, and don't be discouraged when people try to pick holes in it. Just don't assume you are the first one to go down this path, and respect the opinions of others because they may have valid points even though they may not express them in the best manner.

Edited October 22, 2016 by ?Impact

[Altai]

1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

 

We are not talking simplistic logic where all the parameters are known and agreed to. We are talking about complex interactions between billions of people and external events were we have little or no control. No matter how brilliant a model you create on paper, once you put it into the real world you will quickly see countless interactions that could not be predicted. I encourage you to continue your work and develop your model, and don't be discouraged when people try to pick holes in it. Just don't assume you are the first one to go down this path, and respect the opinions of others because they may have valid points even though they may not express them in the best manner.

There is only one parameter and its "justice".  You should say that "people wont like it because of ......." What ? We cant reject the system based on prejudices. For example a poster said that "who will do the difficult jobs?" and I said that we would equalize the difficulties of jobs in a way or everyone would do difficult jobs all together. What would happen if everyone rejects to work for sewage regulation and administration ? Then everyone will clean their own sewage. Problem solved.


The system promise people to give everything which they would probably never have under their current living conditions. Such an offer would only be rejected by rich&ultra rich people becausee they also live the same life promised by my system. They will hate the idea of all people will live under same conditions with them. They wont be privileged big butts anymore.

[?Impact]

1 hour ago, Altai said:

Then everyone will clean their own sewage. Problem solved.

 

Just to simplify to this single issue. In dense housing situation, there is no ownership of sewage, it is a shared resource out of necessity. You might say that everyone cleans out the sewer in front of their own house, but the guy at the start of the block only has his own to worry about where the guy at the end has the big pipe with everyones sewage going through it. Everyone needs to do their own part, but the parts are not equal by a long shot. Similar issues crop up in rural situations. If my neighbour doesn't manage his septic system properly, my well becomes polluted. 

 

Justice is a nice concept, but in the real world it has to be managed through a legal system. Unfortunately legal systems are notoriously bad at dispensing justice.

[Ash74]

3 hours ago, ?Impact said:

 

Just to simplify to this single issue. In dense housing situation, there is no ownership of sewage, it is a shared resource out of necessity. You might say that everyone cleans out the sewer in front of their own house, but the guy at the start of the block only has his own to worry about where the guy at the end has the big pipe with everyones sewage going through it. Everyone needs to do their own part, but the parts are not equal by a long shot. Similar issues crop up in rural situations. If my neighbour doesn't manage his septic system properly, my well becomes polluted. 

 

Justice is a nice concept, but in the real world it has to be managed through a legal system. Unfortunately legal systems are notoriously bad at dispensing justice.

Please define what you believe is "justice"

To the people like myself that earned what we have but I am by no stretch of the imagination rich or well off will not take kindly to being told that we no longer have the right to the property and life style we now have. 

But what has me wondering is how you plan to be elected to power when in Canada the socialist party of Canada does not even come close to winning a single elected seat? 

In the USA to even mention the kind government you are suggesting is met with scorn. How do you plan to compete with the most materialistic people on the planet? 

I have always said the human element of your plan would be the cause of its failure and as others have pointed out that is but one of the million of issues that cannot be just ignored by the claim of "justice" 

[Altai]

On 22.10.2016 at 11:11 PM, ?Impact said:

 

Just to simplify to this single issue. In dense housing situation, there is no ownership of sewage, it is a shared resource out of necessity. You might say that everyone cleans out the sewer in front of their own house, but the guy at the start of the block only has his own to worry about where the guy at the end has the big pipe with everyones sewage going through it. Everyone needs to do their own part, but the parts are not equal by a long shot. Similar issues crop up in rural situations. If my neighbour doesn't manage his septic system properly, my well becomes polluted. 

 

Justice is a nice concept, but in the real world it has to be managed through a legal system. Unfortunately legal systems are notoriously bad at dispensing justice.

I know, I just dont want to stuck in details. Its just a waste of time to discuss details from now. We have priority issues, for example we want to eleminate "money" and we need to control all the sectors to eleminate "money". How we could seize all the sectors in short time ? I want to complate duty before I die. If I live in a healthy way, I can live an average of 80 years and currently there are just 64 left of it. It should cost us for ZERO to make something for FREE and this is why we need to seize all the sectors.

For example if we want to produce a shoe, we need to obtain all the raw materials with zero cost, this means we need our own farm. Then we will need our own natural fertilizer factory. We will need electric tractors. As you see, it will take at least 20-30 years to achieve all of these things. The land is the source of almost all raw materials and we will need milllions of acres of lands.

[Goddess]

Quote

How we could seize all the sectors in short time ?

 

Quote

we need to seize all the sectors.

[?Impact]

52 minutes ago, Goddess said:

 

Yes, I saw that. I hope it is more of an ESL problem than revealing of intention. It is common lexicon to use terms like "grab market share", etc. so let's give some leeway but ask the question. It might just be to "seize the moment".

 

6 hours ago, Altai said:

I How we could seize all the sectors in short time ?

 

As Goddess pointed out above, the common understanding of the term seize is by force. We want to give you the benefit of doubt here, could you explain what you mean by seize? These market segments, land, and other resources are currently under the control of people and corporations that depend on a currency based economy. How do you see this progressing. The three real options are by force, money, or the current owners voluntarily relinquish control. 

Do you see armed revolt as the means to accomplish your goals?

Do you think we can straddle* the mainstream economy and your system as a transition period?

Do you think you can convince enough people with control of resources today to relinquish them and either join your system or simply walk away (ie. donation)?

 

*There are many examples of groups that try to straddle traditional and alternative economies. Probably the most successful of these are the older religious based groups like the Amish, Mennonite, or Hutterite communities. There are also many small scale communities that do the same but are not religion baed. It may be worth studying them to see how they operate and what works and doesn't work in those societies. None of them have achieved your ambitious targets, but it is worth understanding them to validate your model. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by ?Impact

[Ash74]

I think I will be one of the lucky ones by being the first to be shot. 

[Altai]

1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

 

Yes, I saw that. I hope it is more of an ESL problem than revealing of intention. It is common lexicon to use terms like "grab market share", etc. so let's give some leeway but ask the question. It might just be to "seize the moment".

 

 

As Goddess pointed out above, the common understanding of the term seize is by force. We want to give you the benefit of doubt here, could you explain what you mean by seize? These market segments, land, and other resources are currently under the control of people and corporations that depend on a currency based economy. How do you see this progressing. The three real options are by force, money, or the current owners voluntarily relinquish control. 

Do you see armed revolt as the means to accomplish your goals?

Do you think we can straddle* the mainstream economy and your system as a transition period?

Do you think you can convince enough people with control of resources today to relinquish them and either join your system or simply walk away (ie. donation)?

 

*There are many examples of groups that try to straddle traditional and alternative economies. Probably the most successful of these are the older religious based groups like the Amish, Mennonite, or Hutterite communities. There are also many small scale communities that do the same but are not religion baed. It may be worth studying them to see how they operate and what works and doesn't work in those societies. None of them have achieved your ambitious targets, but it is worth understanding them to validate your model. 

Goddess is in my ignore list. I use the word "seize" to describe "being market leader" or "being only one company in the market" by competitiveness. I have explained it before in my other posts. I really dont think that any reasonable person would ask me such a question. Dont allow Goddess to take you out of rails. He is a bad friend.


Do you think we can straddle* the mainstream economy and your system as a transition period?
- I dont know what does "straddle" mean but if you mean to continue with current economic system for a while and passing my system in time, yes an instant switch is almost impossible.

Do you think you can convince enough people with control of resources today to relinquish them and either join your system or simply walk away (ie. donation)?
- I dont think that there is any raw materials without alternatives or I dont think that there is any raw materials we cant have through the purchase.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Altai