The fentanyl epidemic - what to do?

[TimG]

I very much stand by what I say. I think it's sheer idiocy to allow alcohol and nicotine to be legal but ban a substance like MDMA.

You are really going to argue that the entire system we have set up for drug approvals and prescriptions be discarded and simply let companies sell whatever they want to whoever they want? Because that is basically what you are are arguing for when you say that a synthetic drug like MDMA should be freely available for sale.

[BC_chick]

You are really going to argue that the entire system we have set up for drug approvals and prescriptions be discarded and simply let companies sell whatever they want to whoever they want? Because that is basically what you are are arguing for when you say that a synthetic drug like MDMA should be freely available for sale.

Yes and no.

I'd like to see an overhaul of the current system, yes. I think the whole "all drugs bad... except alcohol and nicotine" approach is rather dumb in face of mounting evidence that many 'street' drugs (in their actual form) are less addictive and less physically harmful than those two legal substances.

Please refer to the charts Spanky posted earlier.

But no, I don't want to see companies sell whatever they want. I'd like to see them having to go through government-approved standards like alcohol does.

The whole point is harm reduction, after all.

Edited September 20, 2016 by BC_chick

[TimG]

I'd like to see them having to go through government-approved standards like alcohol does.

If government subjected alcohol and nicotine to the same standards that it uses for drugs they would never be allowed. Extending the 'alcohol and nicotine' exemption to synthetic drugs requires a significant reduction in safety standards.

Here is what is known about MDMA:

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/mdma-ecstasymolly

There is simply no way that a drug with those kinds of effects on hormones should be made freely available.

Edited September 20, 2016 by TimG

[eyeball]

And liberal solutions outlaw anti-biotics and call people who want to use anti-biotics to save lives racist...

I suppose you'll say something similar about my solution to this fentanyl issue - ceasing any dealings with the narco super-power behind it.

[eyeball]

If government subjected alcohol and nicotine to the same standards that it uses for drugs they would never be allowed. Extending the 'alcohol and nicotine' exemption to synthetic drugs requires a significant reduction in safety standards.

First though we need to subject every substance user in society to the same standard. We need a Substance Use Act that is based on acknowledging the simple fact that human beings alter their consciousness. This Act needs to very pointedly refuse to make morality one of it's key drivers.

Only then can anyone expect a reasonable discussion about standards and safety.

[BC_chick]

If government subjected alcohol and nicotine to the same standards that it uses for drugs they would never be allowed. Extending the 'alcohol and nicotine' exemption to synthetic drugs requires a significant reduction in safety standards.

Here is what is known about MDMA:

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/mdma-ecstasymolly

There is simply no way that a drug with those kinds of effects on hormones should be made freely available.

We allow people to smoke, have you seen what that does to the body??? Who are you to dictate where we draw the line?

Drugs are not going anywhere. We need to work on harm-reduction.

[?Impact]

You are really going to argue that the entire system we have set up for drug approvals and prescriptions be discarded and simply let companies sell whatever they want to whoever they want? Because that is basically what you are are arguing for when you say that a synthetic drug like MDMA should be freely available for sale.

Rat poison is freely available for sale. The issue is about classification.

[TimG]

We allow people to smoke, have you seen what that does to the body??? Who are you to dictate where we draw the line?

I thought you weren't arguing that we get rid of the entire regulatory system for drugs? Because are now. As long as we have a regulatory system for drugs then we are drawing lines whether you want to admit it or not.

Why should MDMA be treated differently from Paxil or Diazepam?

Drugs are not going anywhere. We need to work on harm-reduction.

We realized a long time ago that free access to harmful drugs causes harm. That's why many legal drugs require prescriptions and other drugs are not allowed to be sold for any reason. Edited September 21, 2016 by TimG

[TimG]

Rat poison is freely available for sale. The issue is about classification.

Yet there is a concerted move to ban the use of many pesticides because they are dangerous. What is your point?

[?Impact]

Yet there is a concerted move to ban the use of many pesticides because they are dangerous. What is your point?

There is a big difference between banning use, and making illegal. The point however is that we have criminalized the absurd. We should be discouraging people from using drugs, not throwing people in jail.

[TimG]

There is a big difference between banning use, and making illegal. The point however is that we have criminalized the absurd. We should be discouraging people from using drugs, not throwing people in jail.

We throw people in jail that use illegal pesticides. https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p11#BK64

[WestCoastRunner]

I'd suspend trade with China and arrest their ambassador.

Exactly. Check out this:

https://www.statnews.com/2016/04/26/chinese-sell-modified-fentanyl/

[SpankyMcFarland]

I see Narcan has become a verb in Vancouver:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fentanyl-ride-along-vancouver-firefighters-1.3753765

The report summarizes what he actually says on the video:

'I had to narcan the same girl twice.'

[SpankyMcFarland]

Exactly. Check out this:

https://www.statnews.com/2016/04/26/chinese-sell-modified-fentanyl/

It would appear that this lucrative export trade is being tolerated by Chinese government.

[eyeball]

Yes but we tolerate the Chinese government.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Get ready for a crime wave:

http://calgaryherald.com/news/politics/swann-says-the-growing-fentanyl-crisis-is-driving-up-property-crime-dramatically

 

[eyeball]

Crime and death must still be a lot cheaper than risking our friendly relations with China's government.  Rock that boat to hard and we could destroy our economy.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Even in Newfoundland, we are seeeing a big uptick in opioid-related crime, e.g. convenience store hold-ups, and break-ins to hospitals and pharmacies. 

Opioids are now so commonplace now, I see there is a drug marketed to treat opioid induced constipation (OIC) for crying out loud. The guy in the ad has back pain. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

A friend of mine was talking to her son on the mainland. He had been in for wisdom tooth surgery a few days earlier and sounded confused. Turned out he had been put on opioids for pain. They were consigned to the garbage bin in short order. 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

A friend of mine was talking to her son on the mainland. He had been in for wisdom tooth surgery a few days earlier and sounded confused. Turned out he had been put on opioids for pain. They were consigned to the garbage bin in short order. 

But that's what opioids are for...

[SpankyMcFarland]

24 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

But that's what opioids are for...

Opioids should always be used at the lowest possible dose and for the shortest duration possible. 

http://www.painmedicinenews.com/Clinical-Pain-Medicine/Article/05-16/Opioid-Prescribing-by-Dentists-After-Tooth-Extraction-Found-Likely-Excessive/36090/ses=ogst

Canadians are still not seeing the connection between illegal opioid use and overprescribing of prescription opioids. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by SpankyMcFarland

[Guest]

Just now, SpankyMcFarland said:

Opioids should always be used at the lowest possible dose and for the shortest duration possible. 

http://www.painmedicinenews.com/Clinical-Pain-Medicine/Article/05-16/Opioid-Prescribing-by-Dentists-After-Tooth-Extraction-Found-Likely-Excessive/36090/ses=ogst

 

Agreed, but they should be used, when, in the opinion of the medical professional in charge, they are the best option for the pain relief required. I am not of the opinion that the fear of them should limit their use where they are most useful. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Agreed, but they should be used, when, in the opinion of the medical professional in charge, they are the best option for the pain relief required. I am not of the opinion that the fear of them should limit their use where they are most useful. 

One problem is that physicians themselves have underrated the danger of giving these drugs to healthy young people. First do no harm. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

One problem is that physicians themselves have underrated the danger of giving these drugs to healthy young people. First do no harm. 

To not prescribe a pain killer for pain is harm, in my opinion.  This wouldn't be the first time doctors have messed up with prescriptions. Look at antibiotics. But fix that, rather than punish those who need the drugs. 

[OftenWrong]

7 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

This wouldn't be the first time doctors have messed up with prescriptions. Look at antibiotics.

Exactly. Same goes for vaccinations.