DogOnPorch Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 You first. Okay: shoot. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dialamah Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 Okay: shoot. Our critical thinking skills (or lack thereof) are off-topic. My apologies for getting caught up and encouraging you. Cheers. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 I gather no lesson in critical thinking is coming from you, dialamah. Anyways, since this is about progressives like yourself and Islam...What is the best thing offered by Islam to the West? What does the West gain from a relationship with Islam? Who can you show me that puts Islam in its proper light...so to speak? A real person...what's their message? I'm getting the message wrong, in your opinion. So what is the message Islam has for us all? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dialamah Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 I gather no lesson in critical thinking is coming from you, dialamah. Anyways, since this is about progressives like yourself and Islam...What is the best thing offered by Islam to the West? What does the West gain from a relationship with Islam? Who can you show me that puts Islam in its proper light...so to speak? A real person...what's their message? I'm getting the message wrong, in your opinion. So what is the message Islam has for us all? Much as I enjoy sparring with you, DoP, we've had this dance before. I've given you the message of Islam, as I understand it, and you reject it in favor of your own understanding of Islam. This difference between you and I is the same difference that results in ISIS killing other Muslims as well as sponsoring terror attacks in the West. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 With respect: no, you have not given me Islam's message. What is it? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted August 29, 2016 Author Report Posted August 29, 2016 (edited) Actually Muslims in the west are much less extreme than in the countries they came from. But how can that be!? I mean, there are no evil white Islamophobes in those lands to provoke them! Edited August 29, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 29, 2016 Author Report Posted August 29, 2016 Of course I do. That's why I have such loathing, disgust and contempt for some Muslims. Some being 90%? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 29, 2016 Author Report Posted August 29, 2016 Maybe it has something to do with the "barbarism" practiced in liberal democracies by conservatives and progressives alike for the past 200 years, not just 60. Still waiting for the First Nations franchise of ISIL to force us to "understand". Barbarism by what standard? Were they barbaric by the standards of the world around them, or were they, even then, more socially and culturally advanced than other regions of the world, like India, Africa, the middle east and Asia? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 29, 2016 Author Report Posted August 29, 2016 With respect: no, you have not given me Islam's message. What is it? As far as I know it's "Submit or die". Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 As far as I know it's "Submit or die". It's like pulling teeth... The message is close to what you write. لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله Which says: There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God. It's on the ISIS flag and the KSA's etc... It's not a message of peace. However, I'm open to folks like dialamah setting me straight as to the actual message Islam brings to the world. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 But how can that be!? I mean, there are no evil white Islamophobes in those lands to provoke them! Because living in a modern affluent structured society has a moderating effect. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dialamah Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 It's like pulling teeth... The message is close to what you write. Which says: There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God. It's on the ISIS flag and the KSA's etc... It's not a message of peace. In the Arabic Bible, the word for God is Allah. In Matthew 4:10, the Arabic version would read: "You shall worship Allah your Lord, and only him shall you serve." However, I'm open to folks like dialamah setting me straight as to the actual message Islam brings to the world. You aren't really open to it, DoP; you use abrogation as your 'out' to actually understanding and accepting what billions of Muslims believe to be the message of the Qu'ran and Muhammed. Never mind that abrogation is a disputed concept among Muslims, and that even where Muslims accept some abrogation as valid, they dispute others. Even the Hadiths are disputed, and there's an entire subset of Islam who doesn't follow any of the Hadiths. But you'll take whatever current "teaching" of Islam you can find to support your contention that it's inherently violent, radical and 'worse' than any Western ideology, and you'll ignore and dismiss anything that says differently. So don't give me any BS about being "open" to any message other than what you already believe. At least be that honest. Quote
eyeball Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 What does the West gain from a relationship with Islam?An opportunity to learn that every bully eventually meets its match. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
GostHacked Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 An opportunity to learn that every bully eventually meets its match. Good point. Quote
Argus Posted August 29, 2016 Author Report Posted August 29, 2016 Because living in a modern affluent structured society has a moderating effect. And apparently it has more of a moderating effect in the United States, which is filled with fundamentalist Christians and Trump supporters than it does in the progressive paradises of France, Germany and the UK. Why do you suppose that is? Good point. People who hate the west would seem more sincere if they volunteered to leave and go live among the wonderful masses of the Muslim world. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 People who hate the west would seem more sincere if they volunteered to leave and go live among the wonderful masses of the Muslim world. It's not hating the west, it is hating certain things that our government/military does that puts us in more danger from terrorism. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 (edited) In the Arabic Bible, the word for God is Allah. In Matthew 4:10, the Arabic version would read: "You shall worship Allah your Lord, and only him shall you serve." You aren't really open to it, DoP; you use abrogation as your 'out' to actually understanding and accepting what billions of Muslims believe to be the message of the Qu'ran and Muhammed. Never mind that abrogation is a disputed concept among Muslims, and that even where Muslims accept some abrogation as valid, they dispute others. Even the Hadiths are disputed, and there's an entire subset of Islam who doesn't follow any of the Hadiths. But you'll take whatever current "teaching" of Islam you can find to support your contention that it's inherently violent, radical and 'worse' than any Western ideology, and you'll ignore and dismiss anything that says differently. So don't give me any BS about being "open" to any message other than what you already believe. At least be that honest. This amounts to a hill of beans and here's why. Not all Germans were Nazis during WW2. Far from it. Even those who actually joined the National Socialist Party weren't all Nazis as per the movies. Many were good people and there was even a hefty percentage of Germans...Nazis included...that wanted Hitler dead. Many disagreed with this policy or that. Even when it came to Jews and what to do with them. But, that didn't matter. Because the more dominant...violent...aspects of National Socialism won-out. Why? Because that's what happens when the fellows with the guns and the cash make the rules. Islam will ALWAYS have a certain percentage of its believers that will subscribe to abrogation as Wahhabi scholars do...and the use of terror to spread Islam's influence...as we see globally today. Always. Edited August 29, 2016 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted August 29, 2016 Report Posted August 29, 2016 Although Islam has appropriated the Jew's God claiming both are the same...good plan..."Allah" actually comes from Arabian mythology/polytheism...pre-Islam. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted August 30, 2016 Report Posted August 30, 2016 (edited) It's not hating the west, it is hating certain things that our government/military does that puts us in more danger from terrorism. I think there's room for a certain amount of disgust with the west's democracies - these are after all ultimately responsible for the actions of their government/military and keep voting them into power. We're our own worst enemies in that sense. Edited August 30, 2016 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Guest Posted August 30, 2016 Report Posted August 30, 2016 Some being 90%? I believe you quoted 90% as being some belief held by some group as determined by some poll. Yes, if that's the case, I have loathing, contempt and disgust for all of the 90%. Who wouldn't? Quote
dialamah Posted August 30, 2016 Report Posted August 30, 2016 Although Islam has appropriated the Jew's God claiming both are the same...good plan..."Allah" actually comes from Arabian mythology/polytheism...pre-Islam. From what I understand, they do all come from the same religious source, since all Abrahamic religions descended from polytheism in that region. Allah is just the Arabic word for God, and it is considered to be the same God that Jesus worshipped, and that the Jews worship. Muslims believe that the Torah/Old Testament is the word of God/Allah, and that all the prophets from the bible are also prophets of God, aka Allah. Some of the punishments that people decry as coming from Islam actually came from the Old Testament; they do not appear in the Qu'ran and in fact, Muhammed specified different punishments. That those punishments still exist in Middle Eastern culture isn't because of Islam, it's because it's a cultural practice originating prior to both Islam and Christianity, from the Old Testament and possibly prior to that. Quote
Guest Posted August 30, 2016 Report Posted August 30, 2016 They don't excuse extremism, but they helped to nurture it and and grow it. Religious conservative extremists have been trying to convince everyone over there that the west is their enemies... So when we cruise through and kill a few hundred thousand people it really helps strengthen their case and gives them a nice big rallying cry. The global war on terror is literally the best thing in history that has happened for extremists in the middle east. They tricked us into trillions of dollars of misguided spending that actually created new breed of terrorists. Any response by an enemy will nurture hatred. I can't imagine that you are advocating doing nothing in response to ISIS. There will be no peaceful resolution to this problem. There must be killing. The more of them that are killed, the fewer of us, eventually. The argument that if we stop killing them they will stop killing us is not one I agree with. If the extremists are trying anyway, they will find ways to succeed, if they aren't stopped. Complaining without looking for reasons and solutions is a waste of time and energy, imo. Terrorists are indeed creating havoc and despair around the world; if we don't solve the question of 'why', we're never going to figure out how to solve the problem. The all-too-easy response of 'because of Islam' doesn't explain why we barely heard of Islam or Muslims prior to 9/11, and yet now we regularly hear of terror attacks. Islam and Muslims were certainly in existence prior to 9/11. Most complaints about Islam do not involve terrorism. I can't imagine we are responsible for the extreme views on Apostasy and Blasphemy, for instance. What would be the point in looking for reasons there? Quote
dialamah Posted August 30, 2016 Report Posted August 30, 2016 (edited) Any response by an enemy will nurture hatred. I can't imagine that you are advocating doing nothing in response to ISIS. There will be no peaceful resolution to this problem. There must be killing. The more of them that are killed, the fewer of us, eventually. The argument that if we stop killing them they will stop killing us is not one I agree with. If the extremists are trying anyway, they will find ways to succeed, if they aren't stopped. Most complaints about Islam do not involve terrorism. I can't imagine we are responsible for the extreme views on Apostasy and Blasphemy, for instance. What would be the point in looking for reasons there? Maybe 'reasons why' are less important for some issues, but it's still ok to focus on solutions eh? If some country in the ME has severe sanctions against blashemy, for example, why not find out what organizations in those countries are trying to change that, and support them? Edited August 30, 2016 by dialamah Quote
Guest Posted August 30, 2016 Report Posted August 30, 2016 Maybe 'reasons why' are less important for some issues, but it's still ok to focus on solutions eh? If some country in the ME has severe sanctions against blashemy, for example, why not find out what organizations in those countries are trying to change that, and support them? I think that's a very good idea. I would support our government giving official support for that, too. Quote
dre Posted August 30, 2016 Report Posted August 30, 2016 Any response by an enemy will nurture hatred. I can't imagine that you are advocating doing nothing in response to ISIS. There will be no peaceful resolution to this problem. There must be killing. The more of them that are killed, the fewer of us, eventually. The argument that if we stop killing them they will stop killing us is not one I agree with. If the extremists are trying anyway, they will find ways to succeed, if they aren't stopped. Nothing is EXACTLY what we should. First of all ISIL is a puny military power surrounded by much bigger fish. They are contained. But secondly its exactly that mindset that created ISIL in the first place. "Something just HAS to be done about Saddam Hussein" blurted out right wing politicians and their hapless followers. So we got hundreds of thousands of people killed and created ISIL. And the exact same thing will happen again. Interestingly enough the Kurds Canada have been training have not been giving up territory they have taken as they beat ISIL back. And they are well known to be seeking independence. So we are basically training and equipping the NEXT terrorist army, and the next civil war will be the Kurds we are training and the central Iraqi government we are backing now. And once AGAIN, dullards will be howling "We gotta do something!!!!!". Mark my words. The terrorist army we are training and equipping will be at war with the Iraqi government within 18 months. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
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