Progressives and Islam

[Guest]

Cue the right-wing calling the court progressive (with a sneer), unpatriotic, stupid, short-sighted, corrupt, kow-towing to extremists, secret Muslims, ISIS supporters, etc. Cause freedom for everyone shouldn't include the people they disapprove of!

How far right?

[Argus]

Cite?

Sure.

"Religious observance among Muslims has strengthened over the past decade," the report notes. "An increasing number are attending mosques for prayers on a regular basis (at least once a week) and (among women) are wearing the hijab."

This religious devotion is strongest among the younger cohorts. Those aged 18 to 34 are the most observant. "Compared with older Muslims," the report explains, "they identify primarily as Muslim rather than as Canadian, and express a slightly weaker sense of belonging to the country."

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/04/27/canadian-muslims-becoming-more-religious-survey-shows

[cybercoma]

Muslims don't have a sense of belonging here? Well, I'm glad you've gone out of your way to make them feel welcomed and a part of our community, Argus.

[dre]

Muslims don't have a sense of belonging here? Well, I'm glad you've gone out of your way to make them feel welcomed and a part of our community, Argus.

Exactly. Over that same decade the number of islamophobic bigots has also grown. Persecuted/hated groups adopt a bunker mentality so an increase in things like church attendance makes sense. Especially after a decade of idiotic cowardly fear mongering over Islamic terrorism which is 1/7th as likely to kill you as a lightening strike (1 in 20 million chance).

It goes to show how poisonous to a society racism is.

Edited August 27, 2016 by dre

[Argus]

I like how progressives continue to embrace the most vicious, brutal misogyny and homophobia while thumping their breasts and proclaiming how noble and wonderful they are for accepting and encouraging it. That's the progressive mindset, though. Everything western is hatred and despised - despite the fact western values allow for the tolerance they pretend to support. Everything white is laden with guilt, racism and hate, while everything non-white is defended, no matter how abusive.

Unable to argue against the facts, they instead resort to tired old insults against people who reject their blind love of homophobia and misogyny, and call them racists! LOL

What race? They don't even know! They just know it's a bad word they can use to silence those who disagree with them! You can't argue rationally with them because they don't understand rationality and are as emotional as adolescents!

A pretty sad and pathetic sub-specimen of humanity.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Argus

[Argus]

I think the main predictor of how far Islamic extremism spreads in the West is the power that progressives have in a society. As we have seen, the more liberal the society, ie, France, the UK, Sweden, Germany, the more Muslims are not only not discouraged from embracing extremist views, but encouraged to do so. They know that the official elites, the media, academic, political and artistic molders of opinion, will never condemn them for their misogyny and homophobia, but will instead defend them. Meanwhile, in areas less 'progressive', like Canada and the US, Muslims are expected to embrace society and to assimilate into the broader culture, and their excesses are toned down.

And we can see that in this topic. Earlier someone expressed how Muslim children are taught extremism and hatred in schools, and no progressive cared. When a study was posted showing the extremism in Mosque libraries and Muslim schools, progressives sneered. When a study is posted showing Muslims becoming more extreme in Canada, progressives rush to blame -- conservatives!

In point of fact, terrorist incidents in France didn't bother progressive nearly as much as France banning the burka and threatening to ban the burkini. Now THAT'S what gets progressives riled up! Dead children are, after all, the victims of a racist white society which drove Muslims to defend themselves. So... not the fault of Muslims at all!

And when we start getting more of them here you can be sure the main thrust of progressive agitation will be ensuring the authorities don't do anything to target Muslims for it!

[eyeball]

I like how progressives continue to embrace the most vicious, brutal misogyny and homophobia while thumping their breasts and proclaiming how noble and wonderful they are for accepting and encouraging it.

Yep, putting up with right wing conservatism takes a lot of effort. More than it's worth if you ask me.

[Peter F]

despite the fact western values allow for the tolerance

Argus, it is you that is expressing intolerance. I, on the other hand, have expressed tolerance. Do you see how this particular Western value of tolerance is not embraced by you? Particularly towards Muslims? I, the raving progressive, advise toleration. You, the supposed standard of Canadian values, seek to convince Canadians to be intolerant

Now THAT'S what gets progressives riled up! Dead children are, after all, the victims of a racist white society which drove Muslims to defend themselves. So... not the fault of Muslims at all!

Bullshit. Terrorist acts are the fault of the terrorists committing the act. Such criminals should be brought to justice. Every progressive you care to name agrees with that.

Of course you get all frothy that progressives - like me - refuse to condemn those who are not terrorist murdering scum.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Peter F

[Argus]

Argus, it is you that is expressing intolerance. I, on the other hand, have expressed tolerance. Do you see how this particular Western value of tolerance is not embraced by you? Particularly towards Muslims? I, the raving progressive, advise toleration. You, the supposed standard of Canadian values, seek to convince Canadians to be intolerant

Well, what's better, to be intolerant of those who follow a creed of violent misogyny and violent homophobia, or to be tolerant of those who advocate and believe in that?

Bullshit. Terrorist acts are the fault of the terrorists committing the act. Such criminals should be brought to justice. Every progressive you care to name agrees with that.

Of course you get all frothy that progressives - like me - refuse to condemn those who are not terrorist murdering scum.

No, I get all frothy of you enabling extremism by defending it and attacking those who disagree with extremist views.

[cybercoma]

The intelligence community has said numerous times that people like you foster the divisions that ISIS and their ilk thrive on. In fact, it's their goal. So when you throw all Muslims together with the radicals who are trying to kill them, you do the radicals a favour by giving those Muslims nowhere else to go.

[dialamah]

Well, what's better, to be intolerant of those who follow a creed of violent misogyny and violent homophobia, or to be tolerant of those who advocate and believe in that?

No, I get all frothy of you enabling extremism by defending it and attacking those who disagree with extremist views.

I am intolerant of those who are violent, cruel, sadistic, misogynistic, homophobic and xenophobic. That includes white women who help their boyfriend inject meth into her 10-year old daughter, holds her down so he can rape her - and allows him to suffocate her when she screams in protest. I am intolerant of the Muslim family in Canada who colluded to kill three women in their family because they were embracing 'Canadian Values'. I am intolerant of my next door neighbor, who yells racial slurs at non-white people as they walk past his yard. I am intolerant of people on internet forums who make sweeping generalizations, who spew ignorance about what *other* people believe, and then accuses those people of supporting violence and terrorism. I am intolerant of people using their own religion to justify hatred, intolerance and even violence through cherry-picked and out-of-context teachings. I am intolerant of people using someone else's religion - about which they are essentially ignorant - to justify hatred and discrimination by using the same cherry-picked and out of context teachings. I am intolerant of people who refuse to see the humanity inherent in every single person on this planet, who would happily deny innocent and terrified people safe haven, on the specious and ignorant claim that they're from a backwards culture.

[Guest]

I am intolerant of those who are violent, cruel, sadistic, misogynistic, homophobic and xenophobic. That includes white women who help their boyfriend inject meth into her 10-year old daughter, holds her down so he can rape her - and allows him to suffocate her when she screams in protest. I am intolerant of the Muslim family in Canada who colluded to kill three women in their family because they were embracing 'Canadian Values'. I am intolerant of my next door neighbor, who yells racial slurs at non-white people as they walk past his yard. I am intolerant of people on internet forums who make sweeping generalizations, who spew ignorance about what *other* people believe, and then accuses those people of supporting violence and terrorism. I am intolerant of people using their own religion to justify hatred, intolerance and even violence through cherry-picked and out-of-context teachings. I am intolerant of people using someone else's religion - about which they are essentially ignorant - to justify hatred and discrimination by using the same cherry-picked and out of context teachings. I am intolerant of people who refuse to see the humanity inherent in every single person on this planet, who would happily deny innocent and terrified people safe haven, on the specious and ignorant claim that they're from a backwards culture.

Yeah, me too. Except the humanity bit. Hell, there are even people in your post who refute that notion.

[Guest]

Argus, it is you that is expressing intolerance. I, on the other hand, have expressed tolerance. Do you see how this particular Western value of tolerance is not embraced by you? Particularly towards Muslims? I, the raving progressive, advise toleration. You, the supposed standard of Canadian values, seek to convince Canadians to be intolerant

Bullshit. Terrorist acts are the fault of the terrorists committing the act. Such criminals should be brought to justice. Every progressive you care to name agrees with that.

Of course you get all frothy that progressives - like me - refuse to condemn those who are not terrorist murdering scum.

Surely you only have toleration for tolerable Muslims? You wouldn't tolerate intolerable Muslims, would you?

[Peter F]

I suspect that what you define as intolerable would be very different then my definition. So yes I would not tolerate the intolerable. But argus wants me to not tolerate the tolerable. Thats where our differences lie.

[Guest]

I suspect that what you define as intolerable would be very different then my definition. So yes I would not tolerate the intolerable. But argus wants me to not tolerate the tolerable. Thats where our differences lie.

I don't think there would be that much difference. Any imposition of a religious view on anyone who objects to that imposition is intolerable, in my opinion. Those impositions vary in scale and severity, but by any I mean any.

[Argus]

I am intolerant of those who are violent, cruel, sadistic, misogynistic, homophobic and xenophobic.

Demonstrably false. You spent a good deal of effort trying to show Egypt was a paradise for women, or at least, no worse than hateful Canada. And any time anyone brings up the excesses of Islam we see you popping up to defend them.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Argus

[dre]

I like how progressives continue to embrace the most vicious, brutal misogyny and homophobia while thumping their breasts and proclaiming how noble and wonderful they are for accepting and encouraging it.

They don't encourage it. And again that doesn't come from progressivism. Its a libertarian trait that exists both on the left and the right in people that strongly value individual liberty. The rest of your post is just disjointed nonsense.

[dialamah]

Demonstrably false. You spent a good deal of effort trying to show Egypt was a paradise for women, or at least, no worse than hateful Canada. And any time anyone brings up the excesses of Islam we see you popping up to defend them.

I have indeed provided a perspective of Egypt that differs from your own. My sister loves it there, as do other Canadian and American women. This isn't to say it's a paradise, merely that it is not some unmitigated hell for absolutely every woman. I, personally, would not like to live there; even the relatively mild patriarchism of my sister's husband and his family would drive me nuts if I had to live with it every day. Nonetheless, they all treat my sister with respect, they accept her western oddities, and love her anyway. They all ensure she's taken care of when her husband is working out-of-country. She's introduced them to Western society's love for animals; she's also introduced her husband to some of the more progressive ideas from Canada and through discussion with her, he has softened some of his previously hard-held prejudices.

My sister's family are warm and hospitable people, who do not believe it is their job to convert anyone to Islam, and especially not by force. If you *ask* them, they will tell you. If you do not ask, they do not volunteer or impose. They are reasonable to talk to, and can entertain ideas that conflict with their own beliefs. This is in stark contrast to such as you, who keep insisting there is nothing but barbarism from that region, or people like Bryan or DoP who claim it is a Muslim's duty to impose conversion, by sword if necessary. My brother-in-law and his family are sickened by people who believe that about his faith. I'm sickened by people such as yourself, who claim ignorance as fact, who sit in your entitled Western world and pass judgement on people about whom you know nothing, and don't care to learn.

There are horrible things that happen in the Middle East. There are horrible things that happen in Canada. We, as a culture, do not hold the moral high ground; our sins are merely different from theirs.

Edited August 28, 2016 by dialamah

[?Impact]

The Chinese are the only ones that continued that [kept to themselves for a generation before really integrating].

I guess you have no experience beyond your own local neighbourhood. I suggest you visit the Orthodox Jews in Toronto (Bathurst/Lawrence area), or the many other immigrant communities around our land (Amish, Hutterite, Mennonite, etc.).

Edited August 28, 2016 by ?Impact

[DogOnPorch]

My sister's family are warm and hospitable people, who do not believe it is their job to convert anyone to Islam, and especially not by force. If you *ask* them, they will tell you. If you do not ask, they do not volunteer or impose. They are reasonable to talk to, and can entertain ideas that conflict with their own beliefs. This is in stark contrast to such as you, who keep insisting there is nothing but barbarism from that region, or people like Bryan or DoP who claim it is a Muslim's duty to impose conversion, by sword if necessary. My brother-in-law and his family are sickened by people who believe that about his faith. I'm sickened by people such as yourself, who claim ignorance as fact, who sit in your entitled Western world and pass judgement on people about whom you know nothing, and don't care to learn.

I've made no such claims. Individual Muslims might or might not hold splendid qualities.

What Islam says on the subject is very firm, however.

I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.

---Muhammad Sahih Bukhari (8:387)

It is not for individual Muslims to explain away what Allah commands.

[Guest]

I've made no such claims. Individual Muslims might or might not hold splendid qualities.

What Islam says on the subject is very firm, however.

I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.

---Muhammad Sahih Bukhari (8:387)

It is not for individual Muslims to explain away what Allah commands.

Sure it is. Individual Muslims can do what the hell they want, and Allah can kiss their arses.

That's the problem with religion. Individuals who don't tell their God to piss off when necessary.

[DogOnPorch]

Sure it is. Individual Muslims can do what the hell they want, and Allah can kiss their arses.

That's the problem with religion. Individuals who don't tell their God to piss off when necessary.

Western incredulity won't allow us to wrap our heads around the fact that folks who claim to be Muslim believe what the Quran & Hadiths command.

[Guest]

So do a lot of Christians, Jews etc. All of it was written by guys who just wanted to get laid, and none of it is worth a damn.

[DogOnPorch]

So do a lot of Christians, Jews etc. All of it was written by guys who just wanted to get laid, and none of it is worth a damn.

More of our Western incredulity.

Atheists have an advantage of being able to say 'BS'. Believers...not so much. The rules to these exclusive clubs are clear for those who read. There are no books, verses, etc commanding believers to pick and choose what commands to follow.

Thou shalt not commit adultery...we'll just throw that out the window. Hey!! What's with the pitchforks??

[Guest]

More of our Western incredulity.

Atheists have an advantage of being able to say 'BS'. Believers...not so much. The rules to these exclusive clubs are clear for those who read. There are no books, verses, etc commanding believers to pick and choose what commands to follow.

Thou shalt not commit adultery...we'll just throw that out the window. Hey!! What's with the pitchforks??

Yeah, but the words don't matter. Most sane God fearing people know the actual words were written by non-Gods and have been bastardized by a continuous stream of non-Gods over the years. So I have no problem with people who don't believe it all still holding out the hope of a place in Paradise. Whatever turns one's crank, as long as one doesn't try to affect anyone else's crank.

The problem is with those who believe it all...