Many dead as lorry hits crowd

[-1=e^ipi]

This is the incredibly stupid way of thinking that has gotten us here in the first place. "Lets go over there and kill some more people! Yuk yuk!". All you do is further radicalize the populations there and guarantee that not only another generation of terrorists emerge, but that their attentions are focused squarely on the west. Stooooo------pid.

I don't remember Japanese terrorist attacks occurring on the west after WW2.

[-1=e^ipi]

A better approach would be to turn them against each other, or just step back and let that happen.

Yep. The West should have never intervened against the Islamic State when it started growing in 2013. Instead they should have let it grow until our so called 'allies', Turkey and Saudi Arabia had to deal with it. Then all the islamists can take each other out and the West wouldn't be in huge debt nor targeted.

[Hudson Jones]

Of the consequences of bringing in millions of people from a part of the world that you are simultaneously waging war

We're too globalized. Bringing in discriminatory immigration rules and punishing a large group of people due to the acts of a comparatively small group of sociopaths and impressionable people will not resolve anything. Majority of the people who commit these crimes are already citizens. Of course, you can take the discrimination a step higher and start rounding up anyone who is considered Muslim so we can channel Hitler.

We should simply do the right thing. Get the fuck out of those regions both militarily and politically. We need to stop fanning the flames with our adventures. We need to stop supporting countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. We should stop giving excuses for Israel.

I do have a question for people who blame Islam for the acts of these sociopaths:

If Islam is to be held accountable for a small gang of Muslim criminals whom no one elected as their representative, then why should Western liberal democracies not be held accountable for mass murderers like Tony Blair and George W Bush who were in fact fairly and freely elected by the free will of UK and US citizens to be their representatives?

Edited July 15, 2016 by Hudson Jones

[BC_chick]

Of the consequences of bringing in millions of people from a part of the world that you are simultaneously waging war in due to the prevalence of extremist ideologies in that part of the world.

Nigeria is strife with extremism but nobody is waging war. Saudi Arabia is a beacon of extremism and nobody wages war there either. What's the common denominator? They don't impact the west's reliance of foreign oil the way Syria and Iraq do. Face it, the war is not about fighting extremism, it's about oil.

As to allowing people in from a part of the world where we are simultaneously waging war, how about option B. Stop waging war?

[-TSS-]

I have nothing whatsoever against the idea of Bush and Blair convicted in the Hague for crimes against humanity the punishment being spending the rest of their lives in s room size of a cardboard-box.

Never gonna happen but dreaming is free of charge.

[BC_chick]

I have nothing whatsoever against the idea of Bush and Blair convicted in the Hague for crimes against humanity the punishment being spending the rest of their lives in s room size of a cardboard-box.

Never gonna happen but dreaming is free of charge.

I think that would be a good start in making peace with the middle-east.

[bush_cheney2004]

....If Islam is to be held accountable for a small gang of Muslim criminals whom no one elected as their representative, then why should Western liberal democracies not be held accountable for mass murderers like Tony Blair and George W Bush who were in fact fairly and freely elected by the free will of UK and US citizens to be their representatives?

For the same reasons that Chretien and Martin are not held accountable for Canada's murderous attacks on the locals far across the sea.

Besides, nothing in such a political fantasy would stop terrorists from still renting trucks and driving them into crowds of people. Truck bombs and other methods are far older than Blair or Bush's tenure in elected office.

[BC_chick]

A better approach would be to turn them against each other, or just step back and let that happen.

And let China and Russia win the oil war? It'll never happen. People are dispensable. Oil, not so much.

Edited July 15, 2016 by BC_chick

[Argus]

But the BIGGEST aggravating factor is the war on terror itself. Since the GWOT started terrorism all around the world has exponentially increased. We basically gave them a podium, and now people flock from all over the world to join terrorist organizations.

That's nonsense. Terrorism was rapidly escalating before the 'war on terror', which is why we got huge bombs going off in Kenya and then those aircraft hijacked and flown into buildings. I might point out this was the second attempt at multiple plane hijackings, not the first. They had first planned to hijack ten aircraft at once, but that plan failed. Again, all BEFORE the GWOT. The reason it continues to escalate is that all those little kids sucked into the Saudi madrassas industry as it started building up in the eighties and nineties have been graduating and putting their zealotry to work. And that is going to continue.

This is the incredibly stupid way of thinking that has gotten us here in the first place. "Lets go over there and kill some more people! Yuk yuk!". All you do is further radicalize the populations there and guarantee that not only another generation of terrorists emerge, but that their attentions are focused squarely on the west. Stooooo------pid.

Your response is typical of the hand-wringing bleeding heart liberal set who are consumed with self loathing and guilt because the Muslim world doesn't like us. Because, of course, it's all our fault. But the Muslim world has NEVER liked us, and NEVER tolerated us except where we had more military power than they did. The fanaticism which has been building in the Muslim world has been instigated by Saudi Arabia and continues to be driven by billions in Saudi oil money. I know you guys feel that if we just pull back, leave them alone, let them slaughter our people abroad, blow up buildings, run over people, if we just smile ingratiatingly and say "soooryyy!" often enough eventually they'll get tired of doing that. History and common sense show otherwise. If we want to combat the religious zealotry and fanaticism in the Muslim world we need to confront it at its source and paymaster, Saudi Arabia.

[Argus]

Fair but the guy was no more Muslim than you or me. If he were a wife beater of any other descent who lost his wife and job and killed a bunch of people, would we still refer to it as terrorism?

So it's just a coincidence that he was Muslim...

[bush_cheney2004]

Take the Trillions that we have spent on the GWOT, and use it to build housing, roads, bridges, etc for Canadians and Americans.

The U.S. has spent "Trillions" on housing, roads, and bridges over the past 15 years. I am certain that Canada has not.

[Argus]

Of the consequences of bringing in millions of people from a part of the world that you are simultaneously waging war in due to the prevalence of extremist ideologies in that part of the world.

But as soon as we bring them over they'll love us and immediately cast aside their primitive beliefs and fundamentalist values and embrace western culture and values! Just as Trudeau! He'll tell you!

[BC_chick]

So it's just a coincidence that he was Muslim...

From everything I've read, he wasn't. Where did you read he was?

[bush_cheney2004]

That's nonsense. Terrorism was rapidly escalating before the 'war on terror', which is why we got huge bombs going off in Kenya and then those aircraft hijacked and flown into buildings.

True...there were truck bombs long before the "GWOT". Using trucks for mayhem is not a post GWOT idea, except for those with a myopic agenda.

[Argus]

As to allowing people in from a part of the world where we are simultaneously waging war, how about option B. Stop waging war?

And then things like the world trade center bombings won't happen! Right?

[BC_chick]

And then things like the world trade center bombings won't happen! Right?

You're comparing an orchestrated group of Saudi citizens coming to the US specifically to carry out an attack to these weekly occurrences where some nutjob goes on a self-declared jihad?

Yes, I will take the world of pre-Iraq invasion over this any day. You don't?

[-TSS-]

But as soon as we bring them over they'll love us and immediately cast aside their primitive beliefs and fundamentalist values and embrace western culture and values! Just as Trudeau! He'll tell you!

I agree with your sarcasm. People in the west are incredibly naive in their belief what is right or wrong or who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

[BC_chick]

Anyone with half a brain cell saw this coming in 2003. I remember having discussions on forums much like this saying things will escalate. The armchair warriors just wanted revenge for 9/11 and didn't care whether or not Saddam had anything to do with 9/11.

Nobody ever said terror didn't exist before, but there is no denying that things are far worse now and yet people want to continue doing things exactly the same true, tried and failed fashion.

[Bonam]

Nigeria is strife with extremism but nobody is waging war. Saudi Arabia is a beacon of extremism and nobody wages war there either. What's the common denominator? They don't impact the west's reliance of foreign oil the way Syria and Iraq do. Face it, the war is not about fighting extremism, it's about oil.

Oil? People still care about that stuff? Just earlier this year the world was producing more than it knew what to do with and all the places to store it were overflowing. Western countries can produce more of the stuff than they need, and Russia produces more than plenty as well. Meanwhile, alternatives for oil are gaining increased viability and usage in a wide range of applications. It may have been about oil 20 years ago, but it sure isn't anymore.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Bonam

[dre]

That's nonsense. Terrorism was rapidly escalating before the 'war on terror', which is why we got huge bombs going off in Kenya and then those aircraft hijacked and flown into buildings. I might point out this was the second attempt at multiple plane hijackings, not the first. They had first planned to hijack ten aircraft at once, but that plan failed. Again, all BEFORE the GWOT. The reason it continues to escalate is that all those little kids sucked into the Saudi madrassas industry as it started building up in the eighties and nineties have been graduating and putting their zealotry to work. And that is going to continue.

That's just not a fact. Terrorism was actually in decline since the 90's rapidly until after the GWOT started. In literally every single region of the world.

Globally

And in Iraq

And in Afghanistan

And in the middle east

Same goes for Africa.

Your response is typical of the hand-wringing bleeding heart liberal set who are consumed with self loathing and guilt because the Muslim world doesn't like us. Because, of course, it's all our fault. But the Muslim world has NEVER liked us, and NEVER tolerated us except where we had more military power than they did.

No my response is typical of a sentient being that lives in an evidence based reality. It has nothing to do with being a bleeding heart liberal. Intelligence agencies around the world are saying the exact same thing I am.

As for being a bleeding heart liberal, thats you. You want to run around using global socialism trying to solve all the worlds problems, at our expense. I'm saying we should back off and let them fight if they want to fight. I dont really care if they kill each other. Tell me REALLY which is the more conservative stance? Your knee-jerk neo liberal socialist do-gooder stance? RIGHT.

Edited July 15, 2016 by dre

[BC_chick]

Oil? People still care about that stuff? Just earlier this year the world was producing more than it knew what to do with and all the places to store it were overflowing. Western countries can produce more of the stuff than they need, and Russia produces more than plenty as well. Meanwhile, alternatives for oil are gaining increased viability and usage in a wide range of applications. It may have been about oil 20 years ago, but it sure isn't anymore.

We've hit peak oil, I don't argue otherwise, but it will be a few decades until the west is independent of oil and even more until the rest of the world is at the same level. In the meantime, the nations that control these remaining decades are the ones that stand to control the last of the wealth associated with the industry.

If at this point the west gives up and leaves, that will be China and Russia who will benefit the most.

If you honestly think it's about extremism, maybe you can explain Nigeria or Saudia Arabia and the lack of war in those extremist nations.

[BC_chick]

Great visuals, dre.

[Argus]

You're comparing an orchestrated group of Saudi citizens coming to the US specifically to carry out an attack to these weekly occurrences where some nutjob goes on a self-declared jihad?

Yes, I will take the world of pre-Iraq invasion over this any day. You don't?

You're assuming that the orchestrated campaign wouldn't kill more people. That they wouldn't grow more intensive if we just huddled together and hoped they went away, rather than going after them. I have no such confidence. I also have no confidence that we could possibly do something like that without the government being voted out and something similar to Trump being voted in to deal with these people. There's also the question of what happens if we leave them alone adn all these fanatical Muslim countries develop nuclear weapons. How many would die then?

[Argus]

If you honestly think it's about extremism, maybe you can explain Nigeria or Saudia Arabia and the lack of war in those extremist nations.

I don't understand you're logic. Saudi Arabia is a harsh dictatorship whose leaders bribe the population. Nigeria is a harsh dictatorship whose leaders compete to see who can steal the most oil money and don't give a shit about the population. Both are beset by terrorism, but neither government cares. The fact there is no open war just now is irrelevent. There's no open war in Iran either, or Kuwait. There's no open war in Venezuela either. Nor is there any open war in Jordan or Egypt. I just don't get your point.

[Argus]

Anyone with half a brain cell saw this coming in 2003. I remember having discussions on forums much like this saying things will escalate. The armchair warriors just wanted revenge for 9/11 and didn't care whether or not Saddam had anything to do with 9/11.

So what would your response have been to 9/11?