Wilber Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 Switzerland is always quite content to sit out on any war going on, and maybe watch the world burn which won't ever happen. The Swiss people are smart people. I can't say that for most Canadians. Switzerland has conscription. All Swiss have to do training in the military. So you would be good with that. Including reservists they can call on about 200,000 for duty. Switzerland sent troops to Yugoslavia. Neutrals have no allies so have to look after their own defence. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
?Impact Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 Canada got involved in the previous world wars because America told Canada to get their butt over there to help America again fight it's war. Canada entered World War I almost 3 years prior to America Canada entered World War II more than a year prior to America Quote
Wilber Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 Actually we entered WW2 over two years before the US. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Army Guy Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 This new mission is just another example of our political masters willingness to gain global political points on the backs of our soldiers, while over looking the current state of our military.....This will never stop happening, and yet it is sanctioned by the Canadian people, who I might add are scared shitless of what our elected governments would do with a larger Military force......Who pays the price for these childish acts....our soldiers...when are we going to wake up....And at least demand they are equipped properly.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Wilber Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 Switzerland is always quite content to sit out on any war going on, and maybe watch the world burn which won't ever happen. The Swiss people are smart people. I can't say that for most Canadians. Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands declared neutrality at the beginning of WWII. Fat lot of good it did them so they became founding members of NATO when the war ended. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Big Guy Posted July 18, 2016 Author Report Posted July 18, 2016 This new mission is just another example of our political masters willingness to gain global political points on the backs of our soldiers, while over looking the current state of our military.....This will never stop happening, and yet it is sanctioned by the Canadian people, who I might add are scared shitless of what our elected governments would do with a larger Military force......Who pays the price for these childish acts....our soldiers...when are we going to wake up....And at least demand they are equipped properly.... Our political masters have been elected by the people. Soldiers join the military by choice. Our political masters make decisions for us based on what they perceive to be our wishes. I am one of those Canadian people who are not only not "scared shitless" of what our elected government will do but trust it far more than spokespersons for career soldiers. The government has more than just the military to worry about and to satisfy. When we do not like what our government is doing, we vote it out. When a soldier does not like how he/she is treated, they do not re-enlist. In democracies, it is the elected governments who decide where and when to deploy military forces. It is the military that does what it is told to do. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
eyeball Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 I have no political master, I trust our government about as far as I can spit and have little faith in democracy when it comes to preventing our governments from doing much of anything competently. I'm definitely scared of what would happen if they were given big armies. If the cost of a few meaningless missions is all it takes to keep the masters and their rubes happy then so be it otherwise we should be very careful of what militarists wish for. The very last people I'd look to for advice on when, where or why we should deploy our military are 'volunteers' who enlist in such a dysfunctional service. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Big Guy Posted July 18, 2016 Author Report Posted July 18, 2016 I have no political master, I trust our government about as far as I can spit and have little faith in democracy when it comes to preventing our governments from doing much of anything competently. I'm definitely scared of what would happen if they were given big armies. If the cost of a few meaningless missions is all it takes to keep the masters and their rubes happy then so be it otherwise we should be very careful of what militarists wish for. The very last people I'd look to for advice on when, where or why we should deploy our military are 'volunteers' who enlist in such a dysfunctional service. Unfortunately, I believe that Army Guys views do represent those of many in the military. The problem in our form of democracy and especially in Canada, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of Defense evolve into two distinct silos. Too often they end up competing for the same dollar and when one administration favors one it tends to ignore the other. I believe it is still too early to sense the relationship between Stéphane Dion (Minister of Foreign Affairs) and Harjit Sajjan (Defence). More important, it will be interesting to see which Ministry JT will favor. I cannot discern any tendencies at this time. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
eyeball Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 (edited) I don't try to dissect or expect to find much differentiation between any of the political parties myself. The geopolitical results are so similarly FUBAR it matters little to me who is in charge. The current dysfunctional state of financing and purpose is probably as good as it gets. Edited July 18, 2016 by eyeball Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Army Guy Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 Our political masters have been elected by the people. Soldiers join the military by choice. Our political masters make decisions for us based on what they perceive to be our wishes. I am one of those Canadian people who are not only not "scared shitless" of what our elected government will do but trust it far more than spokespersons for career soldiers. The government has more than just the military to worry about and to satisfy. When we do not like what our government is doing, we vote it out. When a soldier does not like how he/she is treated, they do not re-enlist. In democracies, it is the elected governments who decide where and when to deploy military forces. It is the military that does what it is told to do. Yes Soldiers join by choice, normally driven by a need to give back to this nation, to serve a higher cause than just a pay check, to have a sense of belonging to an institution for the greater good, similar to becoming a police officer or firemen. At least that is how it is sold to young men and women who are inspired by our governmental propaganda. Because the government needs them to have seats at certain tables, to do their bidding for political points abroad....Funny how that does not get mentioned in the recruiting posters, to coin a US phase be all you can be, just don't expect us to support you..... Governments make a lot of promises, to get your vote, they promise you a rose garden and deliver what ever they feel like. And while that sounds like good leadership to you, you really should get out more....Running a country is more than just following the peoples wishes for cotton candy, and hard toffee. And yes you are one of those "people" you've said as much in more than one post... And Yes, the military has always done as it has been told, when it has been told, it has always had our citizens backs. regardless if it's had the support of Canada and its population.....I guess it is a one way street. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
?Impact Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 normally driven by a need to give back to this nation... I agree this is one factor, but lets not discount the other ones as well. Certainly the steady pay cheque and benefits help, the education and career advancement are good, the variety and interesting work environment, but most significant is the sense of adventure that appeals to the young recruits. Yes there are countless issues, politics, bureaucracy and frustrations that go along with the job, but that is no different than in the private sector (especially in larger corporations). All in all, the Canadian Forces is an excellent and rewarding career choice. Quote
Argus Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 (edited) I agree this is one factor, but lets not discount the other ones as well. Certainly the steady pay cheque and benefits help, the education and career advancement are good, the variety and interesting work environment, but most significant is the sense of adventure that appeals to the young recruits. Yes there are countless issues, politics, bureaucracy and frustrations that go along with the job, but that is no different than in the private sector (especially in larger corporations). All in all, the Canadian Forces is an excellent and rewarding career choice. And yet it has not even been able to meet the numbers the government allows them to recruit to because people are leaving in droves. Why? Because serving in the military requires a degree of pride which is hard to maintain when you're running around going "bang bang" with your fingers because the government won't pay for ammo for training, when you're riding in rusted out trucks which keep breaking down, when you don't have proper radios for communication or LAVs or even proper uniforms, when your ship remains tied up at dock because the navy can't afford to fuel them or when your hours of flying an aircraft older than you are restricted to save money. Edited July 18, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 Yes Soldiers join by choice, normally driven by a need to give back to this nation, to serve a higher cause than just a pay check, to have a sense of belonging to an institution for the greater good, similar to becoming a police officer or firemen. At least that is how it is sold to young men and women who are inspired by our governmental propaganda. Because the government needs them to have seats at certain tables, to do their bidding for political points abroad....Funny how that does not get mentioned in the recruiting posters, to coin a US phase be all you can be, just don't expect us to support you..... I met a young lad who simply wanted to learn how to be a sniper and kill people and so that's what he did. Probably looks better on a resume to say I wanted to serve my country and community though.. I served my community for 25 years as a volunteer, even put my life on the line as a fireman. The resume bump works a little I suppose but its just a bunch of highly over-rated hoopla AFAIC. I think volunteerism is one of the greatest moral contradictions of our times due to the near religious imperative to carry your own weight in the world contrasted with the sense of entitlement to free labour it imbues our economy with. If anything I think most prospective employers are thinking "ah I see you're willing to work for nothing". That's probably what really looks good on a resume. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Smallc Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 The French position only became clear in June and sources say Gen. Jonathan Vance, chief of defence staff, saw it as an opportunity for Canada to take a leadership role. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-nato-latvia-france-1.3683945 Someone is going to have to sit Army guy and Derek down with General Vance so they can tell him what terrible shape the military is in. This was, of course, all Trudeau's idea. It wouldn't be the idea of the Harper appointee running the military - oh no. Quote
eyeball Posted July 18, 2016 Report Posted July 18, 2016 http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-nato-latvia-france-1.3683945 From your source Since 2008, the Russian military has had the stated intention of being able to deploy at least 65,000 troops over a radius of 3,000 kilometres within 72 hours. In theory, all of the country's highly trained airborne troops could be moving within 24 hours What's there to worry about, I thought this was why we joined an alliance that's nuclear armed. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Big Guy Posted July 19, 2016 Author Report Posted July 19, 2016 Yes Soldiers join by choice, normally driven by a need to give back to this nation, to serve a higher cause than just a pay check, to have a sense of belonging to an institution for the greater good, similar to becoming a police officer or firemen. At least that is how it is sold to young men and women who are inspired by our governmental propaganda. Because the government needs them to have seats at certain tables, to do their bidding for political points abroad....Funny how that does not get mentioned in the recruiting posters, to coin a US phase be all you can be, just don't expect us to support you..... Governments make a lot of promises, to get your vote, they promise you a rose garden and deliver what ever they feel like. And while that sounds like good leadership to you, you really should get out more....Running a country is more than just following the peoples wishes for cotton candy, and hard toffee. And yes you are one of those "people" you've said as much in more than one post... And Yes, the military has always done as it has been told, when it has been told, it has always had our citizens backs. regardless if it's had the support of Canada and its population.....I guess it is a one way street. I suggest that you review the reason that you were in the forces. Either you are in the military for personal reasons or for national and patriotic reasons. Patriotism is not selective based on which political party is currently in charge of the nation, it is in supporting any and every government which is in power at the time. This is not Turkey - it is not the role of our military to decide on the effectiveness of our elected government and chose to follow its directions or not. I have no need to "get out more". I have been on this planet and a citizen of this wonderful nation for over 70 years and am proud of Canada. I am proud of the way it is organized, I am proud of the this democracy which is the envy of the world, and I am proud of the freedoms which I am allowed. Do you remember the following?: "I, [name], do swear (or solemnly affirm) that I will well and truly serve Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her heirs and successors according to law, in the Canadian Forces until lawfully released, that I will resist Her Majesty's enemies and cause Her Majesty's peace to be kept and maintained and that I will, in all matters pertaining to my service, faithfully discharge my duty. So help me God" Do you still believe that? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Army Guy Posted July 19, 2016 Report Posted July 19, 2016 The French position only became clear in June and sources say Gen. Jonathan Vance, chief of defence staff, saw it as an opportunity for Canada to take a leadership role. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-nato-latvia-france-1.3683945 Someone is going to have to sit Army guy and Derek down with General Vance so they can tell him what terrible shape the military is in. This was, of course, all Trudeau's idea. It wouldn't be the idea of the Harper appointee running the military - oh no. Once again, the CDS advises the PM on what the military is capable of doing and what is beyond it's reach. It is the PM's job to take in that advice and make a decision....He meaning the PM is the man that makes the call, regardless of what the CDS has advised or not....Politicians have a habit of blaming others for those decisions, but in the end the PM needs to own it...he is after all who is in charge.. That being said after that decision is made by the PM do you really think the CDS would go to the media and voice his concerns or dismay with that decision, not likely... Gen Vance knows what shape the military is in, and I am positive he has also made it very clear to our government in charge on a daily basis...None of us were in the room when this discussion took place, nor do we know exactly what Gen Vances thoughts are on the topic, for us the public we can only speculate....Perhaps Gen Vance see that with out any missions or operations on going one of the sure fire methods to secure extra funding is to be involved....scraps from the big table are better than nothing....But this funding comes at a cost dead soldiers.....something many Canadians are good with.... This is not about pointing the finger at the liberals , It's about how this is going to effect our nations military.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Argus Posted July 19, 2016 Report Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) The French position only became clear in June and sources say Gen. Jonathan Vance, chief of defence staff, saw it as an opportunity for Canada to take a leadership role. I don't understand your post. Because the French have suggested we take a lead role in Latvia it doesn't matter that we have old, crappy, rusting equipment? Is that the thrust of your position? Edited July 19, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 19, 2016 Report Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) I suggest that you review the reason that you were in the forces. Either you are in the military for personal reasons or for national and patriotic reasons. Patriotism is not selective based on which political party is currently in charge of the nation, it is in supporting any and every government which is in power at the time. You are apparently deeply confused about what patriotism means. I can assure you it has absolutely nothing to do with supporting political parties or governments. It involves love of country - the country, not the idiot politicians. And while it is indeed not the military's task to decide which orders they should follow the idea that they must take no position on the 'effectiveness' of government policies is nonsensical. In fact, you are taking the same position as that of the Turkish government. Anyone who fails to support Erdogan is a traitor. But that's not what patriotism is all about. And Canadian soldiers to don't take an oath to love the government, but to the Queen. Even though you actually posted it you seem to be dumbfounded on the meaning behind the words. Edited July 19, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Army Guy Posted July 19, 2016 Report Posted July 19, 2016 I suggest that you review the reason that you were in the forces. Either you are in the military for personal reasons or for national and patriotic reasons. Patriotism is not selective based on which political party is currently in charge of the nation, it is in supporting any and every government which is in power at the time. This is not Turkey - it is not the role of our military to decide on the effectiveness of our elected government and chose to follow its directions or not. I have no need to "get out more". I have been on this planet and a citizen of this wonderful nation for over 70 years and am proud of Canada. I am proud of the way it is organized, I am proud of the this democracy which is the envy of the world, and I am proud of the freedoms which I am allowed. Do you remember the following?: "I, [name], do swear (or solemnly affirm) that I will well and truly serve Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her heirs and successors according to law, in the Canadian Forces until lawfully released, that I will resist Her Majesty's enemies and cause Her Majesty's peace to be kept and maintained and that I will, in all matters pertaining to my service, faithfully discharge my duty. So help me God" Do you still believe that? Don't lecture me on patriotism, I spent 34 years in the service of my country, 9 tours of duty in some of the worlds shit holes, and 5 years in Germany...and not once did I waiver in my duty or sacrifice for this nation...I have held my best friend in my arms on the battle field watching his last moments of his life fade away, I have buried to many good friends, seen even more maimed for life, both physically and mentally. I have attended 6 more funerals since the Afghanistan mission has ended, for friends that have taken their own lives....I think I earned that check mark in the patriotism block of life....along with a few others. And in return all I have asked is for this nation to stand up and have our soldiers backs, to look after our soldiers when they are broken incapable of serving this great nation any more. I have also advocated for better equipment as it is proven to save lifes.....To bring our soldiers home alive and well so they can be with their families....A mission that we as citizens have failed at. I owe everything I have in life, all my experiences, all my training, to our nations military, it has feed and clothed my family, allowed me to purchase my home, raise my kids in a good, safe environment. I also owe my life to some of it's members the men and women who I have the honor of calling comrads in arms. And if bringing into question how the rest of Canada treats these brave men and women is unpatriotic then I am guilty as charged. I have been retired for DND since 2014, and now a regular citizen of this great nation, with all the freedoms and rights as you have.....I while am no longer bound by that oath, my service is done...if this nation was to call upon me once again I would do it in a heart beat....Sounds very unpatriotic to me.... And yet your entire posts sounds more like "shut the F*** up" and do as your told to do, and to drive your point home you question MY loyalty to our nation. turning it into a dick measuring contest of some sort....by telling me your proud of our nation, and some how I am not because I have questioned some of our governments actions and the actions of it's citizens..... The fact that your willing to let our military slip into despair, putting the lifes of our soldiers at extra risk because it is not properly equipped and trained....that sir has got patriotism written all over it....add that to your list of things i'm proud off, that fact that we can not question our governments actions has got patriotism written all over it....the fact that you label those that do has got patriotism written all over it....add all those things to your things i'm proud of list.... And now that we have our dicks swinging in the wind, and comparing sizes please tell the other posters here what have you've done to be a patriotic Canadian. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Big Guy Posted July 19, 2016 Author Report Posted July 19, 2016 You are apparently deeply confused about what patriotism means. ... I suggest that you limit yourself to issues within the scope of your questionable reality. Leave adult issues to adults. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Smallc Posted July 19, 2016 Report Posted July 19, 2016 Once again, the CDS advises the PM on what the military is capable of doing and what is beyond it's reach. It is the PM's job to take in that advice and make a decision....He meaning the PM is the man that makes the call, regardless of what the CDS has advised or not....Politicians have a habit of blaming others for those decisions, but in the end the PM needs to own it...he is after all who is in charge.. It appears, according to sources, that the CDS advised that we take this role. How else do you interpret him seeing it as an opportunity? Quote
Smallc Posted July 19, 2016 Report Posted July 19, 2016 I don't understand your post. Because the French have suggested we take a lead role in Latvia it doesn't matter that we have old, crappy, rusting equipment? Is that the thrust of your position? I think you'd better read the quote again. It was General Vance that suggested we take the leadership role. Quote
Big Guy Posted July 19, 2016 Author Report Posted July 19, 2016 ... I owe everything I have in life, all my experiences, all my training, to our nations military, it has feed and clothed my family, allowed me to purchase my home, raise my kids in a good, safe environment. I also owe my life to some of it's members the men and women who I have the honor of calling comrads in arms. ... And now that we have our dicks swinging in the wind, and comparing sizes please tell the other posters here what have you've done to be a patriotic Canadian. That is reflected in your views and I understand why your view of our society is seen through this prism. Reality is seldom in focus when looking through a prism. As to your last colorful but distasteful comparison, I am very comfortable as to my attitude towards my country and have no intention or need try to convince others of my patriotism. My view and hope for Canada is what is best for all Canadians, no matter their previous occupations, be they private business, public service, military or any other occupation. They are all equal to me. Your view of patriotism and/or your patriotism is between you and your conscience. I have no interest in evaluating it or commenting on it. I support my country, my government, proud of being Canadian and will continue to do so and defend it when I see it disrespected. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Smallc Posted July 19, 2016 Report Posted July 19, 2016 I owe everything I have in life, all my experiences, all my training, to our nations military, it has feed and clothed my family, allowed me to purchase my home, raise my kids in a good, safe environment. I also owe my life to some of it's members the men and women who I have the honor of calling comrads in arms. \ You owe it to Canadians. That is the choice that you made. That is the choice you seem to question in every one of your posts. If you don't understand him questioning your patriotism, you should probably go back and read your own words. Quote
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