Police Officers Shot in Dallas #2

[Wilber]

I would be happier if neither were.

Who wouldn't. One thing I hope we can all agree on is that this is a tragedy.

[jacee]

That's an interesting piece of data. My belief, though, in talking with and reading what cops have to say, is that this is not their perception. Then again, national stats would vary from those observed in the large urban centers where these kinds of racial problems seem to be centered.

But note I've never pretended that police fears of being murdered are justified by reality, just that they are prevalent among police officers.

More interesting US facts (from ?impact's link above):

There were 304 officers killed in ambush attacks from 1980 to 2013, with 371 offenders involved in those deaths. The percentage of black and white offenders in ambushes were about the same: 44 percent were white, and 43 percent were black.

Law enforcement fatalities have been declining since the 1970s. Felonious deaths also have declined since that time: Nearly 140 officers died in felonious incidents in 1973; in 2013, 27 officers were killed in felonious incidents.

Police always have reason to fear for their lives. It's the nature of the job they chose - pursuing criminals.

However, they do not have reason to fear that more now than in the past. It's not getting worse, it's gotten better.

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Edited July 8, 2016 by jacee

[jacee]

Who wouldn't. One thing I hope we can all agree on is that this is a tragedy.

Yes, it certainly is.

.

[?Impact]

It's not getting worse, it's gotten better.

.

To be fair, part of the reason fewer police officers are killed is procedure and equipment. The 140 to 27 decline over 40 years is not entirely due to reduced crime, all factors should be considered.

[poochy]

Yeah a white guy would have had to treat a cop like a rabid dog that could go off at any second.

The last time i was stopped for speeding my wallet was in a bag in the back seat, and i asked if i could reach for it, because its the smart thing to do.

[poochy]

I actually got really outraged at the shooting of Sammy Yatim in Toronto which resulted in an attempted murder convictions for the officer that killed him.

You take a job where you get given a gun, your mistakes are far more serious.

I've heard that there's a movement to make cops pay for liability insurance like doctors have. Would that help?

You can have imperfect humans as police or none at all.

[Argus]

However, they do not have reason to fear that more now than in the past. It's not getting worse, it's gotten better.

Agreed. What has changed is their training, and the intense focus on officer safety. This is what started getting them militarized, both in equipment and in attitude, twenty years or so ago. SWAT was a very good idea, for example, when developed for specific, high risk situations. Now they use swat teams for far, far too many things that don't pose a danger to police.

[poochy]

Again, put things in context. Whites make up only 32.3% of New York city population. Without the context statistics are 100% meaningless.

Ok, so in that context are they meaningless, or meaningful? Its simple math.

[poochy]

Only one person is dead.

Really, thats how you determine responsibility? Its a simple world for some.

[poochy]

More interesting US facts (from ?impact's link above):

There were 304 officers killed in ambush attacks from 1980 to 2013, with 371 offenders involved in those deaths. The percentage of black and white offenders in ambushes were about the same: 44 percent were white, and 43 percent were black.

Law enforcement fatalities have been declining since the 1970s. Felonious deaths also have declined since that time: Nearly 140 officers died in felonious incidents in 1973; in 2013, 27 officers were killed in felonious incidents.

Police always have reason to fear for their lives. It's the nature of the job they chose - pursuing criminals.

However, they do not have reason to fear that more now than in the past. It's not getting worse, it's gotten better.

.

No Police officer is expected to risk thier lives, thats a fallacy.

[August1991]

I zipped through this thread so my excuse if someone else made a similar point and I missed it.

Aside from the people involved or even the effects on this election cycle, it is sad for Obama. If his presidency had one goal, it was to make black and white Americans more, simply, American.

I genuinely (naively) thought that Obama's election in 2008 would show that America is a viable federal multicultural republic just as Laurier's election in 1896 made Canada a viable federal state.

Then again, Laurier was the only French-Canadian in his first federal cabinet and Laurier sent troops to South Africa in 1899.

I think that Obama bungled this.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think that Obama bungled this.

No, I think you bungled an understanding of the United States.

[jacee]

I zipped through this thread so my excuse if someone else made a similar point and I missed it.

Aside from the people involved or even the effects on this election cycle, it is sad for Obama. If his presidency had one goal, it was to make black and white Americans more, simply, American.

I genuinely (naively) thought that Obama's election in 2008 would show that America is a viable federal multicultural republic just as Laurier's election in 1896 made Canada a viable federal state.

Then again, Laurier was the only French-Canadian in his first federal cabinet and Laurier sent troops to South Africa in 1899.

I think that Obama bungled this.

Let's not be unrealistic. He's not a god.

With Trump having huge support, it's pretty clear the racists are winning. That's a choice Americans are making for themselves. Nothing to do with Obama bungling anything.

That's just who they are.

So far, Obama is still alive.

That's quite an achievement in a country of racists with rifles.

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[Wilber]

That's quite an achievement in a country of racists with rifles.

.

And hand guns.

[August1991]

No, I think you bungled an understanding of the United States.

I may have misunderstood the US but however one thinks, this is a disaster for Obama.

Obama surely wanted one thing: make Americans get along.

He said it in 2004 in his Democratic Convention speech: "There are no Red States or Blue States. There are only United States."

Well, in 2016, after eight years of Obama, American blacks and whites are directly accusing each other of murder by skin colour alone.

=====

If it's any consolation, Laurier was defeated in 1911 and then because he refused coalition, his party almost dissolved because of international issues. But Laurier's party came back stronger, about 25 years later - and has dominated Canadian federal politics ever since.

Edited July 8, 2016 by August1991

[Wilber]

It's a disaster for the US, Obama is just one person.

[bush_cheney2004]

I may have misunderstood the US but however one thinks, this is a disaster for Obama.

Obama surely wanted one thing: make Americans get along.

He said it in 2004 in his Democratic Convention speech: "There are no Red States or Blue States. There are only United States."

No worries.....President Obama also bungled an understanding of the United States, where "getting along" is a post Rodney King punchline.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's a disaster for the US, Obama is just one person.

It's just another disaster, with more to follow. Meanwhile, Wall Street reaches record highs.

[August1991]

That's quite an achievement in a country of racists with rifles.

.

I have lived in several countries, and among different people. I have travelled in the US and spoken to Americans. All things considered, the US is not a country of racists.

I recall the quote of a young woman, born in Bangkok, living in Los Angeles who had a British mother and a Thai father. Many years ago, she said: "Before, in Thailand, I was Eurasian. I was embarrassed. When I moved to LA, I felt free. I was not ashamed."

Edited July 8, 2016 by August1991

[jacee]

No Police officer is expected to risk thier lives, thats a fallacy.

I didn't say that.

.

[jacee]

I have lived in several countries, and among different people. I have travelled in the US and spoken to Americans. All things considered, the US is not a country of racists.

You figure about half?

Trump has a lot of supporters.

I recall the quote of a young woman, born in Bangkok, living in Los Angeles who had a British mother and a Thai father. Many years ago, she said: "Before, in Thailand, I was Eurasian. I was embarrassed. When I moved to LA, I felt free. I was not ashamed."

Lovely story.

So ... LA is not racist ...?

My intent is not just US bashing. I am just very disturbed by the upsurge in mainstream racism from Trump and his supporters and fearful of its effects in the US and on the world.

And we are seeing its effects, and the backlash.

Now for the police backlash against the backlash, an upsurge in police violence against innocent black people ... and the backlash against the backlash against the backlash ... violence and mayhem.

Just so disheartening.

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Edited July 8, 2016 by jacee

[dre]

Where are you getting that number from? A cursory google shows the number at 44.6% So the group which makes up just under half the population only commits 2% of the shootings. You consider that to be meaningless?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City#White_ancestries

Not necessarily meaningless, but its a correlation. You need to be careful about drawing any conclusions from that. In order to declare that skin color is causative factor you would have to look at other data. For example.... Are rich blacks living in expensive neighborhoods more like to shoot at people than their rich white peers?

Edited July 8, 2016 by dre

[Argus]

Not necessarily meaningless, but its a correlation. You need to be careful about drawing any conclusions from that. In order to declare that skin color is causative factor you would have to look at other data. For example.... Are rich blacks living in expensive neighborhoods more like to shoot at people than their rich white peers?

I'm not getting into the causes of Black crime, but the causes of the reasons why there are more violent Black/police interactions than White/police interactions on a per capita basis. And I haven't found any reputable site anywhere which doesn't acknowledge that Black crime is greatly disproportionate to White crime. That alone would account for the fact Blacks and police are involved in a lot more unfriendly interactions.

[Derek 2.0]

Sounds like he was prepared to act alright and was just biding his time. It's all about galvanizing these days.

Could be, it sounds like they found explosives in his home.

[Derek 2.0]

in police negotiations, shooter/sniper claimed to be U.S. Army veteran... lots of Facebook sourced pics of the guy in uniform. It's a good thing there are no other potential disgruntled black U.S. military trained persons out there taking exception to police killings of blacks. So now... a CNN media talking head is playing up the guy as a 'lone wolf' and... and... that this doesn't meet the "U.S. standard" for terrorism labeling. Say what?.

Its sounds like he also did a tour overseas.......there are plenty of US veterans, including those that have committed serious crimes in Texas.......Without seeing the CNN anchor's comments, I would hope his intent was to calm fears and not paint the BLM protesters with the same brush with the "terrorism" moniker.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Derek 2.0