War Against ISIS Coming Home?

[Big Guy]

So it appears that ISIS suicide bombers have attacked Turkey with a "hideous" attack on an airport in Istanbul:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/istanbul-ataturk-airport-attack-36-dead-and-150-injured-in-hideo/

This is an awful waste of life and the death of innocents - but unexpected? I do not think so.

ISIS is a political group that claims a new nation which currently is geographically part of what we still call Iraq and Syria. The soldiers who constitute the ISIS military are the previously fired (by the USA) members of the elite Saddam Republican guard. Most of them were born in Iraq and their families lived and continue to live in the area that is being held by ISIS. When the Western alliance (including Turkey) is dropping bombs on ISIS, it is dropping bombs on the ISIS fighters and their families and homes. If ISIS had airplanes then no doubt they would be dropping bombs on Turkey. They do not. They fight with the most powerful weapon that they have - suicide bombers.

Turkey has declared war on one side of the civil war in Iraq and Syria. They are throwing much of their military at them. Why is it surprising that one country at war with another tries to kill folks who are their enemy?

War is hideous. It is hideous that suicide bombers kill innocent people in airports. It is hideous that one country drops bombs on another country that does not have airplanes or anti-aircraft munitions and killing innocent people living in their ancestral homes.

When anybody starts to drop bombs on another nation, there are consequences. This latest suicide bombing is just another consequence of war. There will be more.

[Boges]

So it appears that ISIS suicide bombers have attacked Turkey with a "hideous" attack on an airport in Istanbul:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/istanbul-ataturk-airport-attack-36-dead-and-150-injured-in-hideo/

This is an awful waste of life and the death of innocents - but unexpected? I do not think so.

ISIS is a political group that claims a new nation which currently is geographically part of what we still call Iraq and Syria. The soldiers who constitute the ISIS military are the previously fired (by the USA) members of the elite Saddam Republican guard. Most of them were born in Iraq and their families lived and continue to live in the area that is being held by ISIS. When the Western alliance (including Turkey) is dropping bombs on ISIS, it is dropping bombs on the ISIS fighters and their families and homes. If ISIS had airplanes then no doubt they would be dropping bombs on Turkey. They do not. They fight with the most powerful weapon that they have - suicide bombers.

Turkey has declared war on one side of the civil war in Iraq and Syria. They are throwing much of their military at them. Why is it surprising that one country at war with another tries to kill folks who are their enemy?

War is hideous. It is hideous that suicide bombers kill innocent people in airports. It is hideous that one country drops bombs on another country that does not have airplanes or anti-aircraft munitions and killing innocent people living in their ancestral homes.

When anybody starts to drop bombs on another nation, there are consequences. This latest suicide bombing is just another consequence of war. There will be more.

Rationalizing ISIS's tactics SWEET!

[eyeball]

ISIS is sweet? If you say so.

[BC_chick]

Rationalizing ISIS's tactics SWEET!

They didn't exist until war was waged on their country and they don't have a military. BG has a point, were you expecting spit bombs?

[Big Guy]

Rationalizing ISIS's tactics SWEET!

There is a big difference between rationalizing and understanding. Rationalizing implies some element of agreement. I understand why those ISIS folks are doing what they are doing but certainly do not condone or agree with it. The same way as I understand why those Nations bombing and taking sides in a civil war but certainly do not condone or agree with it.

As to tactics, this is war - what rules do you think either side is supposed to follow? Both sides are killing innocents and rationalizing it as the "fog of war" or "acceptable collateral damage".

Bin Laden tipped over the first domino on 9/11. The USA had the opportunity to stop the falling domino damage but completely misunderstood the enemy and and allowed them to fall - right to the most recent referendum in the UK.

I see the military geniuses on this board and elsewhere with the "kill them all" solution. That has never worked in the long run and will not be effective here.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

For every victory we are also suffering a defeat.

Time to know and understand the enemy.

While the military geniuses are portraying the enemy as blood thirsty, insane, virgin seeking, ignorant sand inhabitant, their technological arm is hacking into our networks and using social media to recruit. Many of these ISIS fighters believe that they are fighting for their freedom of religion (Sunni), protecting their ancestral homes and defeating invaders. That is why this war will never be won. ISIS soldiers (Sunnis) are now defending their birthplace and what they believe to be their country.

I find it fascinating that there are still some in the West who believe that ISIS somehow sprung out of a hole in the dessert or descended from outer space. ISIS is a ground swell organization, their soldiers are made up of those hardened Sunni Iraqi soldiers experienced through numerous wars against Iran and a few years ago, were told by Americans to go home and try to get a job.

To defeat your enemy you must understand him.

[GostHacked]

Rationalizing ISIS's tactics SWEET!

Turkey was/is housing the Free Syrian Army and supplying them with training, weapons and cash.

Turkey has been involved with attacking the Kurds, while the rest of NATO is trying to help the Kurds

Turkey allowed truck loads of ISIS oil to cross into Turkey (that's why Russia bombed those convoys)

Turkey has been a pawn in this and has been totally used by NATO to continue and expand the failed war on terror.

Big Guy is right, there will be more to come. It's not rationalizing it, but it helps to understand wtf is going on.

[GostHacked]

It's quite interesting to not see some of the same people that were all about bashing Islam in the thread regarding Orlando Florida.

If we really want to be consistent in calling out terrorism, we would see more participation in this thread.

[Army Guy]

ISIS is a political group that claims a new nation which currently is geographically part of what we still call Iraq and Syria.

You make them sound like they are a legitimate organization, recognized by the UN, or by other Middle eastern countries, or even Iraq's official government. But they are not are they....The fact is they are recognized within the UN, and every nation within it as a Terrorist organization....An organization that uses terror for a political proposes....

Now some nations leaders are reclassifying ISIL, Drash what ever you want to call them as nothing more than rogue army as they don't fit into all the slots other terrorist organizations fit into, or how other nations have decided to counter ISIL aspirations of a new home land unlike how they dealt or destroyed with other terrorist groups...Forcing a new change of tactics which are evolving slowly.... they have limited political power, a clear chain of command within their government and military.

In the end they are a threat to world security, security of the middle east, and nothing more than a rogue terrorist group...

The soldiers who constitute the ISIS military are the previously fired (by the USA) members of the elite Saddam Republican guard. Most of them were born in Iraq and their families lived and continue to live in the area that is being held by ISIS.

Not sure if your trying to misinform the rest of the crowd here or just don't know, While a good deal of ISIL higher chain of command are made up of EX Iraqi members, there is still a high number of foreign fighters , with some estimates of over 30,000 by the UN , which released a report calling ISIL a polishing ground for most extremists who have joined not because of some made up fallacy of making a new homeland, but rather the thrill, the experience, and to be part of something bigger than they ever dreamed about.....The fact they are not paid, but given allowances for housing, food, and fuel....means it is clear they are not doing it for the money, but something else....

Pointing the finger at Uncle Sam for handing out pink slips, sending them home to find other employment, I hope that's not your excuse for all these guys flocking over to ISIL is it....Know your enemy is that not what you where preaching....

The fact that Sadam and his bunch of bullies ruled Iraq with an Iron fist where Sunnis, so we are clear the Minority in IRAQ with only 35 % of the total population , while the Shia make up over 65 % of the population....So while in power under the Sadam regime and the Sunni henchmen killed thousand s upon thousands of Shia Iraqis ....After Sadam was disposed off, do you really think they were going to hand the keys to the kingdom back to the Sunni's...Shia Muslims took control of the country and their policies are not popular with the Sunni's, who are used to get their own way....or killing those that opposed them....Ya really nice guys....So yes ISIL does have limited support of some Sunni areas, because of the dislike of the Shia government.....

But that does not represent the majority of Sunnis or Shia population, nor does it give them the numbers to demand a separate nation or a region of their own....In the real world we have rules and laws and processes to make that happen , taking up arms and forcing it to happen is well illegal in the eyes of the rest of the civilized world....we did not see Quebec use suicide bombers or terrorist attacks to get there separation....No....they followed the rule of law....So the civilized world stood up and said this is not right, and started dropping bombs, on ISIL targets....that's what happens when you take up arms and deify the rest of the world....and start killing whom ever you feel the need to.....It makes me puke that your post comes across with some empathy for these murders, like we should some how feel sorry for them, I mean shit they have lived their all their lives, and now they are told they can't kill their fellow countrymen because of race, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, have the same extremist views of Islam, etc, etc ...And these guys some how deserve some big crocodile tears of mercy.....

If it is what we should do then lets make it easier for them to do....lets solve all our problems with violence....I like your new truck big guy, I'll be coming over with my new shot gun to take it later....maybe next time it is your house , your wife and kids....because that is the civilized thing to do....

[GostHacked]

Not sure if your trying to misinform the rest of the crowd here or just don't know, While a good deal of ISIL higher chain of command are made up of EX Iraqi members, there is still a high number of foreign fighters , with some estimates of over 30,000 by the UN , which released a report calling ISIL a polishing ground for most extremists who have joined not because of some made up fallacy of making a new homeland, but rather the thrill, the experience, and to be part of something bigger than they ever dreamed about.....The fact they are not paid, but given allowances for housing, food, and fuel....means it is clear they are not doing it for the money, but something else....

Pointing the finger at Uncle Sam for handing out pink slips, sending them home to find other employment, I hope that's not your excuse for all these guys flocking over to ISIL is it....Know your enemy is that not what you where preaching....

That is something I had said a long time ago, however I was called crazy, regarding the ISIS members consisting of former Iraqi military personnel.

And you can thank Uncle Sam for leaving lots of trucks behind for ISIS to use.

The failed war on terror allowed ISIS to flourish, mission accomplished.

[Big Guy]

You make them sound like they are a legitimate organization, ...

If it is what we should do then lets make it easier for them to do....lets solve all our problems with violence....I like your new truck big guy, I'll be coming over with my new shot gun to take it later....maybe next time it is your house , your wife and kids....because that is the civilized thing to do....

An interesting perspective. In Syria, the rebels are the good guys and the legitimate government the bad guys and we support the rebels. In Iraq, the rebels (ISIS) are the bad guys and the American installed government in Iraq are the good guys so we support the good guys.

ISIS is seen by the Sunnis as their legitimate government. I mentioned here a couple of years ago to take a map of Iraq and Syria and overlay a transparency of the areas that are Sunni - Areas in both Iraq and Syria. If you bothered to do that then you would see the areas currently controlled by ISIS. Why is that surprising?

As to what is recognized by the UN or the West - what has that got to do with the folks on the ground? If the Sunnis want to form their own country they will do so. What are they supposed to do, process a referendum and present it to the American puppets in Iraq and Assad?

As to a danger to the rest of the world, I will believe that when they try to extend their influence beyond Sunni borders. Even then they would have to create and build an air force and rent a few warships to cross the oceans.

As to how this army was created - When the USA invaded and defeated the Iraqi forces the USA basically fired ALL of the members of their military. Of course they told them to go home and find a job. There is no Unemployment Insurance in Iraq so how were these guys (and families) supposed to survive? They had one skill - soldiering!

As to blaming the USA - I blame Bin Laden for starting this fiasco. But he was a fanatic anti-American and apparently a lot smarter than the Americans President and their government. Looking for revenge, Bush sent American troops into the Middle East and created that ever destructive imbalance in their societies. America destroys governments leaving voids. All kinds of chaos breaks out. All kinds of wars break out. All kinds of refugees are created and spill into Europe - causing major problems in Europe - including this latest Brexit.

As to how the "world" reacts to horrific actions in other nations - I suggest that it depends on the nation and what resources is has that are needed for the "world". What about Rwanda , Tiananmen square, Chechnya and the prosecution of Palestinians in Israel?

As to the make-up, of ISIS: "In pre-war Iraq, the regular army was thought to have between 300,000 and 350,000 men organized into five corps and 16 divisions." "The Republican Guard was believed to have between 60,000 and 70,000 men, organized into six divisions." and "The elite Special Republican Guard was thought to number some 15,000 men drawn from the most loyal of the regime's supporters."

When the USA took over ALL these military men were booted out - where would they go and what would they do?

Yes, understand your enemy or you will never defeat it. I think I understand it.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Big Guy

[dre]

An interesting perspective. In Syria, the rebels are the good guys and the legitimate government the bad guys and we support the rebels. In Iraq, the rebels (ISIS) are the bad guys and the American installed government in Iraq are the good guys so we support the good guys.

ISIS is seen by the Sunnis as their legitimate government. I mentioned here a couple of years ago to take a map of Iraq and Syria and overlay a transparency of the areas that are Sunni - Areas in both Iraq and Syria. If you bothered to do that then you would see the areas currently controlled by ISIS. Why is that surprising?

As to what is recognized by the UN or the West - what has that got to do with the folks on the ground? If the Sunnis want to form their own country they will do so. What are they supposed to do, process a referendum and present it to the American puppets in Iraq and Assad?

As to a danger to the rest of the world, I will believe that when they try to extend their influence beyond Sunni borders. Even then they would have to create and build an air force and rent a few warships to cross the oceans.

As to how this army was created - When the USA invaded and defeated the Iraqi forces the USA basically fired ALL of the members of their military. Of course they told them to go home and find a job. There is no Unemployment Insurance in Iraq so how were these guys (and families) supposed to survive? They had one skill - soldiering!

As to blaming the USA - I blame Bin Laden for starting this fiasco. But he was a fanatic anti-American and apparently a lot smarter than the Americans President and their government. Looking for revenge, Bush sent American troops into the Middle East and created that ever destructive imbalance in their societies. America destroys governments leaving voids. All kinds of chaos breaks out. All kinds of wars break out. All kinds of refugees are created and spill into Europe - causing major problems in Europe - including this latest Brexit.

As to how the "world" reacts to horrific actions in other nations - I suggest that it depends on the nation and what resources is has that are needed for the "world". What about Rwanda , Tiananmen square, Chechnya and the prosecution of Palestinians in Israel?

As to the make-up, of ISIS: "In pre-war Iraq, the regular army was thought to have between 300,000 and 350,000 men organized into five corps and 16 divisions." "The Republican Guard was believed to have between 60,000 and 70,000 men, organized into six divisions." and "The elite Special Republican Guard was thought to number some 15,000 men drawn from the most loyal of the regime's supporters."

When the USA took over ALL these military men were booted out - where would they go and what would they do?

Yes, understand your enemy or you will never defeat it. I think I understand it.

People just don't learn. This is the result of the MASSIVE miscalculation that the invasion of Iraq, on the part of western "leaders", and the hapless supports of that policy. All whack-a-mole tactics and no strategy at all.

ISIL is merely a symptom of the fact that there is nearly 30 million Sunnis in Iraq and Syria that are being forced to submit to Iranian backed shias in Iraq, and Iranian backed Allawites in Syria.

Even if you kill every single ISIL member it wont do a thing to change that.

The region needs to be partitioned. If the west fights to maintain the current broken borders, we are actually unwittingly fighting to strengthen Iran influence in the region, and fighting to maintain an unworkable political situation that will never stop producing more moles to wack.

[Army Guy]

That is something I had said a long time ago, however I was called crazy, regarding the ISIS members consisting of former Iraqi military personnel.

And you can thank Uncle Sam for leaving lots of trucks behind for ISIS to use.

The failed war on terror allowed ISIS to flourish, mission accomplished.

It is NOT primarily made up of Iraqi ex military personal, the bulk of it's members are made up of Sunni Iraqi kids promised the world , wages, slaves, prostitutes, fuel, food, and fuel...and all the killing they want to do.....foreign Muslims make up the rest of the numbers, UN est at over 30,000.

Yes Uncle Sam left a lot of equipment to the new Iraqi army, who in turn lost it on the battle field...Id say most of it has been destroyed or rendered broken by now....One could hardly blame the US for that....

[Army Guy]

An interesting perspective. In Syria, the rebels are the good guys and the legitimate government the bad guys and we support the rebels. In Iraq, the rebels (ISIS) are the bad guys and the American installed government in Iraq are the good guys so we support the good guys.

It's not perspective but fact, the current Syrian government is another Sadam in sheeps clothing with the bulk of Syrians not supporting him or his clowns.

The new Iraqi government is made up mostly of the majority Shia religion, for many reasons the Sunnis had already proved that they could not govern, at least not without using terror and fear to keep their subjects in line. The SHIA sect makes up the majority of Iraqi citizens, whom were oppressed by the Sunnis....Was there going to be conflict, no doubt there was, but never even close to what Sadam and his Sunnis goons had accomplished....

Given a choice making the new government out of the majority of the Iraqis would seem to be the right choice.....if you were from Shia sect.....and the Sunni sect rejected this proposal right out of the gates, and made it almost impossible for the current government to accomplish anything. This is not an US made issue this was an issue solely created by the Sunni's....and the years of mistreatment of other sects within Iraq.

ISIS is seen by the Sunnis as their legitimate government. I mentioned here a couple of years ago to take a map of Iraq and Syria and overlay a transparency of the areas that are Sunni - Areas in both Iraq and Syria. If you bothered to do that then you would see the areas currently controlled by ISIS. Why is that surprising?

ISIS does not represent all Sunnis, you can not paint them all with the same brush, does ISIL have support from some of the Sunni sect , Yes they do, but it is not a majority. They have been many Muslim , Sunni sect Imans that have spoken publicly about how they do not support ISIS , and have condemned their actions as going again'st Islam.....Also remember ISIS does not tolerate any discourse with any of their policies or religious interputations, and have killed anyone that does not tow the party line, Sunni or Shia, western, eastern it does not matter....

When I read your post it seems like your suggesting that the Sunnis are only interested in creating a sunni homeland, and yet they are involved in Syria, Libya, Nigeria, and Afghanistan....that's quit a homeland....where does it stop.....and does the world just take it on the chin, decide to sit down with these nut bars and redraw the middle eastern map.....what of the middle eastern countries that don't want they're borders redrawn....

Why should the civilized world even bother to sit down with these guys....I mean , what they are currently doing goes against inter national law, the Genva convention, and most nations with the UN....So why do we shed tears for these guys, because they want a homeland, they don't want to be ruled by Shia.....last time I looked their is an already established process to get all of that..... and if we let bullies do what ever they want, to whom ever they want.....where does it stop.....Can I arm myself and declare my own nation within Canada., No because we have laws and rules about such behavior....

If they want to have the bombs stop dropping they have to act according to the laws, and accords laided down by the rest of the world....

As to how this army was created - When the USA invaded and defeated the Iraqi forces the USA basically fired ALL of the members of their military. Of course they told them to go home and find a job. There is no Unemployment Insurance in Iraq so how were these guys (and families) supposed to survive? They had one skill - soldiering!

Your statement has a lot of holes in it....first off every nation around the globe has soldiers in fact thousands of Canadian soldiers retire or quit our forces every year, less than .025% percent find employment in Soldiering.....and they are not entitled to Unemployment insurance , you either have a meager pension, or a return of contributions from said pension plan....how do they do it I wonder....Well sir they get off their asses and find work where they can....

The bulk of Iraq's soldiers are conscripts forced into the military, on top of that lets not forget that the bulk of Iraq's population is made up from Shia religious sect and there fore made up the bulk of the old Iraqi army......with the exception of Iraq's Republican Guard who numbers you gave were between 60 and 70,000....I wonder how many of them survived the last invasion, I bet not that number.....So you want to believe that the survivors took up arms in 2003 and are still alive today.....how many would have been wounded, not able to soldier, how many still wanted to fight....it would be my guess that today there would be a small fraction still fighting today....replaced by a much younger Iraqi who has been seduced with the promises of virgins and glory in his heavens....while on earth he is paid some wages, given slaves to keep him comfortable, all the prostitutes he wants, a home,food, and fuel.....plus the chance to prove himself on the battle field.....a very powerful motivator if your poor, or out of work....

[dre]

It is NOT primarily made up of Iraqi ex military personal, the bulk of it's members are made up of Sunni Iraqi kids promised the world , wages, slaves, prostitutes, fuel, food, and fuel...and all the killing they want to do.....foreign Muslims make up the rest of the numbers, UN est at over 30,000.

Yes Uncle Sam left a lot of equipment to the new Iraqi army, who in turn lost it on the battle field...Id say most of it has been destroyed or rendered broken by now....One could hardly blame the US for that....

Well keep in mind they also created ISIL in the first place, and handed Iraq over to an Iranian proxy, and turned the whole place into a hotbed for extremists and terrorists. That sort of monumental stupidity has to count for SOMETHING!

[dre]

ISIS does not represent all Sunnis, you can not paint them all with the same brush, does ISIL have support from some of the Sunni sect , Yes they do, but it is not a majority. They have been many Muslim , Sunni sect Imans that have spoken publicly about how they do not support ISIS , and have condemned their actions as going again'st Islam.....Also remember ISIS does not tolerate any discourse with any of their policies or religious interputations, and have killed anyone that does not tow the party line, Sunni or Shia, western, eastern it does not matter....

ISIL is just a symptom of an underlying condition. There's nearly 30 million Sunnis in Iraq and Syria that do not want to be ruled by a rival sect or governed by the Iranian proxies that run Iraq and Syria. As long as that underlying condition persists then this problem will persist whether its manifested by ISIL or some other group.

There's the problem with the entirely tactical whack-a-mole approach. A way better approach would be to ENCOURAGE partition instead of fighting to stop it. Iraq and Syria are not real countries. They are the result of arbitrary lines drawn in the sand by the British who did not understand how strong a role sectarianism plays in the region.

[betsy]

War is hideous. It is hideous that suicide bombers kill innocent people in airports. It is hideous that one country drops bombs on another country that does not have airplanes or anti-aircraft munitions and killing innocent people living in their ancestral homes.

When anybody starts to drop bombs on another nation, there are consequences. This latest suicide bombing is just another consequence of war. There will be more.

First of all, this is not a conventional war. ISIS militants are not easily identifiable - they don't wear uniforms.

Second, they hide among their own people.

It is not hideous to protect your own by using what you have. Only a fool won't. Especially when we're talking survival.....fighting against an enemy that's bent on purging earth of all infidels!

They don't have planes? Tough luck.

But as you said....they've got suicide bombers - the most powerful weapons they have. And indeed, it is. They're a whole lot cheaper....all you need are sheeples who'd easily be duped to blow themselves up. So, what's your complaint about? Don't they blow up innocent people?

[betsy]

People just don't learn. This is the result of the MASSIVE miscalculation that the invasion of Iraq, on the part of western "leaders", and the hapless supports of that policy. All whack-a-mole tactics and no strategy at all.

That's what "progressives" want to think. It may be related to Iraq, but no, it is not THE result.

You easily forget 9/11, and other terrorist attacks by Islamists all over the world prior to the invasion of Iraq. The war against the western world was already drawn a long time ago.

The whole strategy that people like you don't want to see is that Islamists are effectively - and strategically - scattered all over the world. That didn't happen by sheer accident. It was a long-term strategy in the making, thus we have what's called, "sleeper cells."

Edited June 30, 2016 by betsy

[Topaz]

It take two parties to have a war and if western corp. didn't want the natural resources in the ME, perhaps 9/11 wouldn't have happened IF it was done by countries of the ME but there's more to that story. 2800+ people died on 9/11 but how many people have died in the ME who had nothing to do with 9/11?? ISIS probably would be...if the US hadn't help kill Hussein, the truth be known, the US and NATO have made the mess in the ME.

[Army Guy]

Well keep in mind they also created ISIL in the first place, and handed Iraq over to an Iranian proxy, and turned the whole place into a hotbed for extremists and terrorists. That sort of monumental stupidity has to count for SOMETHING!

Iranian proxy or not the fact remains that the Shia sect represents the majority of the population....one that was oppressed by the Sunnis during their reign of power....Why would the US and coalition hand power back over to the same goons that were disposed in the invasion.....did we hand over Germany back to the Nazi party after world war II ,no why is that.

Did they have a crystal ball to fore see what would happen....Look I agree the invasion went off with out a hitch, it was the nation building that failed....But some where along the line the Sunnis need to stand up and be held accountable for their actions.....the US did not turn them into terrorists that was their choice....one that may have some weight if the Shia government was oppressing them like Sadam and his goons did....but that is not the case....The because is they refuse to live under Shia rule, and are willing to give up everything to make that happen.....

So now they have created this ISIS organization, with the only goal of killing....it has nothing to do with a new home land....it is about wiping out as many of their opponents as possible cleansing the country side not just for religious resons, or color or race....but wiping out anyone that does not submit to their extremist ideas.....

So the question is why are willing to redraw lines on a map, for extremists....what do we do when the next group of extremist comes along.....redraw more maps, until when do we stop....until every group of extremists haves what they want.... does this mean Israel can finally end the conflict with the Palestinians....all they have to do is throw them into the sea, and we will redefine a new map.....If we agree to this solution then I think the map of the middle east is going to change big time.....

And what do we do when a nation refuses to have there borders redefined....a nation that has had it's borders drawn up by the British, do you think Jordan or Syria will be fine with that....what of the rest of them....

[GostHacked]

It is NOT primarily made up of Iraqi ex military personal, the bulk of it's members are made up of Sunni Iraqi kids promised the world , wages, slaves, prostitutes, fuel, food, and fuel...and all the killing they want to do.....foreign Muslims make up the rest of the numbers, UN est at over 30,000.

Yes Uncle Sam left a lot of equipment to the new Iraqi army, who in turn lost it on the battle field...Id say most of it has been destroyed or rendered broken by now....One could hardly blame the US for that....

There is a lot of blame the US wears regarding the failed war on terror. I wonder where ISIS got all those fancy new pickups from.

And no the equipment has not all been destroyed, ISIS is still using humvees on the battlefield.

But since that worked out so well, it had to be repeated in Libya and now Syria .. hows that workin out?

[dre]

Iranian proxy or not the fact remains that the Shia sect represents the majority of the population....one that was oppressed by the Sunnis during their reign of power....Why would the US and coalition hand power back over to the same goons that were disposed in the invasion.....did we hand over Germany back to the Nazi party after world war II ,no why is that.

Did they have a crystal ball to fore see what would happen....Look I agree the invasion went off with out a hitch, it was the nation building that failed....But some where along the line the Sunnis need to stand up and be held accountable for their actions.....the US did not turn them into terrorists that was their choice....one that may have some weight if the Shia government was oppressing them like Sadam and his goons did....but that is not the case....The because is they refuse to live under Shia rule, and are willing to give up everything to make that happen.....

So now they have created this ISIS organization, with the only goal of killing....it has nothing to do with a new home land....it is about wiping out as many of their opponents as possible cleansing the country side not just for religious resons, or color or race....but wiping out anyone that does not submit to their extremist ideas.....

So the question is why are willing to redraw lines on a map, for extremists....what do we do when the next group of extremist comes along.....redraw more maps, until when do we stop....until every group of extremists haves what they want.... does this mean Israel can finally end the conflict with the Palestinians....all they have to do is throw them into the sea, and we will redefine a new map.....If we agree to this solution then I think the map of the middle east is going to change big time.....

And what do we do when a nation refuses to have there borders redefined....a nation that has had it's borders drawn up by the British, do you think Jordan or Syria will be fine with that....what of the rest of them....

They didn't need a crystal ball to know this was going to happen.

Shia government was oppressing them like Sadam and his goons did....but that is not the case....The because is they refuse to live under Shia rule, and are willing to give up everything to make that happen.....

The Shia government WAS oppressive. Maliki himself was a Dawa leader, bent on creating a new Shia state. Despite his pledge to the US that he would reach out to Sunnis he engaged in a systematic effort to purge them from any positions of real power. Sunni political figures were arrested - in some cases sentenced to death. Militants that had terrorized sunnis during the conflict were released by the thousands.

Here's some of Malikis greatest hits... They include arresting political opponents, using the military to crush protesters, labeling sunnis as terrorists, denying them electricity in favor of shias, etc etc.

Now that Nouri al-Maliki has resigned as prime minister, it is worth looking at the way his two terms as prime minister (2006-2010, 2010-2014) shaped Iraq. Did his policies help create the country’s current impasse?

1. Al-Maliki was so partisan in 2006 when he first came to power that he denied that Shiite militias were a security problem. When Gen. David Petraeus came to him in late 2006 with a plan to disarm the Sunni and Shiite militias in Baghdad, al-Maliki insisted that he begin with the Sunni armed groups. The US acquiesced, but as a result, the Shiite militias came into disarmed Sunni neighborhoods at night when the Americans weren’t looking, and ethnically cleansed them. Baghdad went from some 45% Sunni in 2003 to only 25% Sunni by the end of 2007. Al-Maliki’s sectarianism led to the transformation of Baghdad into a largely Shiite city.

2. Gen. Petraeus and others cultivated Sunnis who were alarmed at the rise of al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia (the predecessor of today’s so-called “Islamic State”), and created “Awakening Councils” of armed Sunnis willing to fight the extremists. Al-Maliki opposed this program and had shouting matches with Petraeus over it, fearing that the armed Sunnis would become a problem for his Shiite government after the defeat of al-Qaeda. (In fact, if only al-Maliki could get the Awakening Councils back now, he’d be very lucky). As the American forces withdrew from a combat role in 2009, US generals asked al-Maliki to hire the some 100,000 Sunni Awakening Council fighters. They could have been integrated into the police in cities like Mosul or Fallujah. Al-Maliki took about 17,000 of them, but left the other 83,000 twisting in the wind, without any stipends or pensions. Because they had fought al-Qaeda, they were targeted by the terrorists for reprisals and some were killed. In some instances al-Maliki actually prosecuted some Awakening Council fighters for anti-government activities they had engaged in before they joined the Council. Figure each of the 83,000 had a circle of 20 close relatives and friends. That was 1.6 million Sunni Arabs (out of some 5 million at the time) that al-Maliki alienated.

3. Although al-Maliki’s campaign in Basra against the Mahdi Army in spring of 2008 was a victory for the new Iraqi army, it only succeeded because the Shiite, pro-Iranian Badr Corps joined in on the side of the army, and because of American close air support. Al-Maliki is alleged in the aftermath to have brought thousands of Badr Corps fighters into the army, beginning a process of sectarianizing it. Ultimately, al-Maliki’s army from all accounts ended up being largely Shiite, which is one reason they were so unwelcome in mostly Sunni Arab Mosul (a city of 2 million) and that the Mosulis allied with the “Islamic State” against al-Maliki.

4. Al-Maliki allegedly kept the military weak for fear that a powerful officer might try to make a coup against him.

5. Al-Maliki played favorites with the Shiites of the south, his power base, and neglected to provide the Sunni Arab cities with key services, including enough electricity.

6. In late 2011, Al-Maliki abruptly declared his Sunni vice president, Tareq al-Hashimi, a terrorist, without any due process. He alienated a lot of Sunnis with this action.

7. Al-Maliki’s budgets were bloated and did not pay enough attention to investment, creating jobs, supporting local industry, or diversifying the economy away from its almost complete dependence on oil.

8. In 2010 when Sunnis enthusiastically joined the political process and voted in droves for the Iraqiya Party, al-Maliki froze it out of power in favor of a Shiite coalition put together under Iranian pressure (Iran is a Shiite state). The Sunnis were angry that they had the largest party in parliament but came away with nothing to show for it.

9. When the Arab Spring broke out in early 2011 and had its echoes in Iraq, with youth demonstrations against al-Maliki’s authoritarian ways among both Sunnis and Shiites, al-Maliki briefly pledged not to seek a third term as prime minister. (Arab Spring youth were particularly incensed by the power and prerogatives of presidents for life and their privileged children, who were being groomed to take over after them). Al-Maliki quickly reneged on his pledge and only on Thursday did he finally resign, having driven Sunnis into the arms of the “Islamic State.”

10. In winter-spring 2013 when Arab Spring-type demonstrations were mounted by the Sunnis in places like Falluja and Hawija in the Sunni Arab west and north, al-Maliki declared them terrorists and sent in military troops and helicopter gunships to brutally suppress the protests. Sunni Arabs, having been informed that they would be a perpetual defeated minority in parliament were now given the idea that even peaceable assembly would be denied to them as a political tactic. Al-Maliki’s policies gave them no incentive to remain within the system. In the end they allied with the al-Qaeda offshoot, the so-called “Islamic State.” Al-Maliki didn’t so much lose the Sunni Arabs as drive them into the arms of IS with systematic policies of marginalization.

[Army Guy]

There is a lot of blame the US wears regarding the failed war on terror. I wonder where ISIS got all those fancy new pickups from.

And no the equipment has not all been destroyed, ISIS is still using humvees on the battlefield.

But since that worked out so well, it had to be repeated in Libya and now Syria .. hows that workin out?

I did not say all of it had been destroyed, and Come on...Pick up trucks and Humvees....what a game changer....

How is it all working out....are you suggesting that Iraqi and Syrian forces are not up to the task of handling ISIS....or are you suggesting that NATO put boots on the ground once again.....

[Army Guy]

They didn't need a crystal ball to know this was going to happen.

SO what in your mind was the tell, what was the moment that everyone would have been clear that the new government was going to fail....

and who would the coalition have chosen to run the country ?

The Shia government WAS oppressive. Maliki himself was a Dawa leader, bent on creating a new Shia state. Despite his pledge to the US that he would reach out to Sunnis he engaged in a systematic effort to purge them from any positions of real power. Sunni political figures were arrested - in some cases sentenced to death. Militants that had terrorized sunnis during the conflict were released by the thousands.

Here's some of Malikis greatest hits... They include arresting political opponents, using the military to crush protesters, labeling sunnis as terrorists, denying them electricity in favor of shias, etc etc.

WOW that is oppression...funny I don't see any thing of using Chemical warfare on the population ....nor did I see a list of hundreds of thousands missing and buried in the desert some place, placed into the torture chambers of Sadams sons.......WTF did you think was going to happen that all the Sunni did forgotten and sunny days ahead....What is your point....that the Sunnis have paid their debt for everything they have done.....and now the free world should shed tears for these bastards.....give them their own country by asking the rest of the middle east to redraw borders, to correct a mistake made by the British ....and you thought putting the Shia in charge was a huge mistake....but this new plan is a much better one.....

Like I asked you a couple of times what do we do when those same countries that are living with those same borders refuse to co operate.... do we invade, or do we turn a blind eye and let ISIS do it....Why have we even thought of giving anything to ISIL.....WTF are we thinking and what do we do next time some organization with a grudge comes along.....

[dre]

SO what in your mind was the tell, what was the moment that everyone would have been clear that the new government was going to fail....

and who would the coalition have chosen to run the country ?

Why should the US sack a country and put an Iranian proxy religious sect in charge AT ALL?

WTF did you think was going to happen that all the Sunni did forgotten and sunny days ahead....What is your point....that the Sunnis have paid their debt for everything they have done.....and now the free world should shed tears for these bastards.....give them their own country by asking the rest of the middle east to redraw borders, to correct a mistake made by the British ....and you thought putting the Shia in charge was a huge mistake....but this new plan is a much better one.....

What I thought was going to happen is exactly what did happen. A sectarian bloodbath directly resulting from a really really dumb policy.

Like I asked you a couple of times what do we do when those same countries that are living with those same borders refuse to co operate.... do we invade, or do we turn a blind eye and let ISIS do it

Why on earth would the west invade to pick sides in a Shia/Sunni sectarian conflict thats thousands of years old? Especially when everything we try makes it worse?

Like I asked you a couple of times what do we do when those same countries that are living with those same borders refuse to co operate.... do we invade, or do we turn a blind eye and let ISIS do it....Why have we even thought of giving anything to ISIL.....WTF are we thinking and what do we do next time some organization with a grudge comes along.....

[Rue]

The notion Dre and others use on this forum that if you ignore terrorism it doesn't spread is past idiotic. The stick your head in the sand, hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil, line of reasoning is the product of sheltered naive children who think their back yard will remain without angry brown skinned people if they put up a fence and ignore the neighbours.

The isolationism Dre spouts is no different than what Trump does and Dre would be the first to call himself a progressive and Trump a right wing extremist. Just pathetic.

Terrorism will not go away by ignoring it, What a fool notion.

As for Big Guy's continuing epic failure to rationalize and condone what terrorists do as an act of war that wouldn't happen unless it wasn't for Jews creating a country or bad bad Americans also speaks for itself. Drivel. Absolute drivel.

Terrorism in the MIDDLE EAST is a direct consequence of a strain of Islam that has always been violent and will always be violent and has to be contained. For thousands of years it has existed its never vanished because it was ignored let alone appeased as Dre and Big Guy would do,

I back up the comments of Betty and Army on this one 100%.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Rue