Transgender

[WestCoastRunner]

i have no interest for what they have or have not done for individuals. They've done nothing good for Canada, and I'd support all of them being eliminated.

Protecting children's rights so they grow into contributing citizens of Canada is not good for Canada?

[Hal 9000]

Here's an interesting twist to the debate.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/06/02/transgender-aclu-operative-quits-daughters-intimidated/

[cybercoma]

From Breitbart? I bet it's "interesting."

Edited June 3, 2016 by cybercoma

[Hal 9000]

From Breitbart? I bet it's "interesting."

Are you suggesting that the article is false?

[Argus]

Protecting children's rights so they grow into contributing citizens of Canada is not good for Canada?

Whose rights are you protecting when you order young girls to undress in front of a boy?

Edited June 10, 2016 by Argus

[cybercoma]

What is this the 1950s? Children don't undress in locker rooms these days.

[WestCoastRunner]

Whose rights are you protecting when you order young girls to undress in front of a boy?

As usual you are taking snippets from your original post to suit your agenda.

[TimG]

Protecting children's rights so they grow into contributing citizens of Canada is not good for Canada?

This issue has nothing to with protecting rights. It is about using the power of the state to force other people to pretend that the delusions of mentally ill people are normal. I figure it is only a matter of time before progressives start to argue that treating schizophrenics is a violation of their rights and passing laws to punish people who tell schizophrenics that their delusions are not real.

[Guest]

What is this the 1950s? Children don't undress in locker rooms these days.

No I'm pretty sure the world is exactly like the Porky's shower scene, but instead of sticking their members through a glory hole, boys are now just pretending to be girls in order to ogle some naked parts. Internet porn is too difficult to access, so now people have to cross dress and act like the opposite sex for years at a time.

[Argus]

As usual you are taking snippets from your original post to suit your agenda.

No, I am simply defining your own position in a more truthful way which makes you uncomfortable.

[jacee]

I'm guessing none of this alleged research you've done has involved anything related to science or anatomy.

I'm guessing you haven't googled:

science-in-transition-understanding-the-biology-behind-gender-identity/

In short, gender in the genitals and gender in the brain develop at different times in the womb, and can vary with the presence/absence/quantity of testosterone at each time.

.

[TimG]

In short, gender in the genitals and gender in the brain develop at different times in the womb, and can vary with the presence/absence/quantity of testosterone at each time.

Everything has a biological basis. For example, schizophrenia has a biological basis and leads to people hearing voices that do not exist. I have yet to hear anyone provide an argument for why the feeling that one's gender does not match one's biology is different from hearing voices. In both cases, you have biological abnormalities that lead to the person believing things that contradict physical reality.

[Guest]

America's first genderless person:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/16/jamie-shupe-first-non-binary-person-oregon

[Archduke al-Qaddafi]

They should keep their fetish to themselves like the other 99.8% of the population. We do not need to change society to suit these people.

[jacee]

Everything has a biological basis. For example, schizophrenia has a biological basis and leads to people hearing voices that do not exist. I have yet to hear anyone provide an argument for why the feeling that one's gender does not match one's biology is different from hearing voices. In both cases, you have biological abnormalities that lead to the person believing things that contradict physical reality.

So ... you just tell them they're wrong and it goes away? :/

Schizophrenia and gender identity are physical realities.

Edited June 16, 2016 by jacee

[TimG]

Schizophrenia and gender identity are physical realities.

Why are they treated differently? Both have the same symptom where the individual experiences perceptions that do not match reality. In one case we have no issue telling the schizophrenic patient that their mind is playing tricks on them and they have to learn to understand what is real and what is not. In the other case people want to use the force of the law to punish people who dare point out that the transgender patients are imagining things that are not real. Edited June 16, 2016 by TimG

[?Impact]

transgender patients are imagining things that are not real.

Do you see any differences between male and female minds? I am not talking intellectual capability or aptitude, but more emotional or attitude. Lets use the term wired to explain the brain since we are far from fully understanding its complexities. It is fairly clear that the older we get, the more difficult it is to rewire our brains. When we are young, we have an amazing ability to learn things like languages that become much more difficult to master as we age. Certainly some of us exhibit proficiencies in skills, like mathematics, that others find extremely difficult. Certainly some of our emotional wiring is influenced by our bodies chemistry/hormones. How much of that wiring takes place in the womb, early childhood, and later stages in life, and how difficult is it to rewire? We know from past experience that attempts to rewire people, like making them non-gay have rarely succeeded and usually end up causing far worse problems.

While for most of us, for whatever reason(s), our mind tends to have similarities with others based on our genetic identity, how do you know that is not the case for all. Is it not possible that transgendered people have parts of their brains wired in a manner that aligns closer with opposite biological sex? Do you call that a defect, and pull an Orlando nightclub act and get rid of those that don't conform to your standard? Do we put them into therapy, which history tells us will fail spectacularly? Do we accept that their differences are part of them and learn how to live with that?

I see the washroom/changeroom issue as completely separate. In society we have been conditioned to segregate based on biological sex, and are told that is the right thing to do. To change that causes discomfort, not because of right or wrong but because we resist change to social norms. There is also a discomfort for those who don't relate to societal norms. I am far more concerned how people treat each other than I am about biological differences. If someone is abusive to someone else, biological identity is irrelevant. If there were an abusive person around, I would be equally concerned for my son as for my daughter. I don't see sexual identity as an indicator of being abusive, only the acts a person commits.

[TimG]

Do you see any differences between male and female minds?

You could spin the same narrative for schizophrenic patients. What goes on inside a person's head is real enough to them whether is it 'gender mismatch' or a collection of imaginary voices. The question is what is the appropriate response of society to people with these kinds of abnormalities. I would say treating someone with kindness and respect is necessary whether they are schizophrenic, transgender or have some other condition's that where one's mind is biologically wired to imagine things that are not true.

But treating someone with kindness and respect should not require that other people be forced to pretend that the person's imaginings are real. Nor should society teach confused kids that self mutilation is a viable option to deal with whatever feelings they may have. I am certain that if a schizophrenic was convinced his left hand was going to murder people that no professional would ever suggest amputation as a way to deal with those feelings. Yet we seem to think that amputation is perfectly reasonable treatment for feelings of 'gender mismatch'. It makes no sense.

Is it not possible that transgendered people have parts of their brains wired in a manner that aligns closer with opposite biological sex?

Is is not possible that transgender 'feelings of mismatch' are no different than the hallucinations experienced by schizophrenics? How could we ever tell the difference? Edited June 17, 2016 by TimG

[?Impact]

Nor should society teach confused kids that self mutilation is a viable option to deal with whatever feelings they may have.

Agreed. I see surgery no different than therapy to change someone. In some cases there may be limited success, but it could also turn out to make the situation far worse. The question is if someone is unable to live as they are, who gets to choose which alternative? There is also the other alternative to help society to be more accepting and help the individual to be more comfortable with who they are instead of trying to change them.

I won't address the difference between feelings and hallucinations, if you don't see the difference then maybe you need help.

[TimG]

There is also the other alternative to help society to be more accepting and help the individual to be more comfortable with who they are instead of trying to change them.

This is a two way street. Society can't twist itself into knots trying to accommodate the needs of every abnormal person. A compromise would be 'transgenders use the washroom that matches their outward physical appearance'. A compromise is not 'biological males are free to use female public change rooms'. i.e. we are talking 'reasonable accommodation' - not 'accommodation no matter what the cost'. Edited June 17, 2016 by TimG

[eyeball]

We do not need to change society to suit these people.

Thankfully society will just change itself.

[eyeball]

Everything has a biological basis. For example, schizophrenia has a biological basis and leads to people hearing voices that do not exist. I have yet to hear anyone provide an argument for why the feeling that one's gender does not match one's biology is different from hearing voices. In both cases, you have biological abnormalities that lead to the person believing things that contradict physical reality.

Do you pass judgement on schizophrenics and deny them the means to resolve the contradiction?

[jacee]

Why are they treated differently? Both have the same symptom where the individual experiences perceptions that do not match reality. In one case we have no issue telling the schizophrenic patient that their mind is playing tricks on them and they have to learn to understand what is real and what is not.

In the other case people want to use the force of the law to punish people who dare point out that the transgender patients are imagining things that are not real.

Nothing you say will change their reality.

.

[jacee]

Why are they treated differently? Both have the same symptom where the individual experiences perceptions that do not match reality. In one case we have no issue telling the schizophrenic patient that their mind is playing tricks on them and they have to learn to understand what is real and what is not. In the other case people want to use the force of the law to punish people who dare point out that the transgender patients are imagining things that are not real.

Gender identity is a physical reality, it phycically develops at a different time than genitals, and can differ from them.

Genitals can also be ambiguous.

Life is not a dichotomy.

Gender is complex for some.

Live and let live, eh.

.

[TimG]

Genitals can also be ambiguous.

intersex people are a minority of people claiming to be transgender. For people with no physical ambiguity their perceived gender could simply be their mind playing tricks on them much like a schizophrenic's mind plays tricks on them by creating voices that no one else hears..

You obviously disagree with my narrative but you can't refute it because science has no way to tell the difference between the narrative I construct and your preferred narrative.

Edited June 18, 2016 by TimG