Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?

[Dougie93]

15 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

That's why I have more respect for Harper....the body count was going up and the Iltis jeeps were not going to cut it.   No more screwing around with rented Antonovs and to hell with the bitching Liberals and NDP...it was the Liberals/Chretien that went to war with half ass kit.

Somebody is going to have to step forward again and show some leadership...competition or not...but it won't be Justin Trudeau.

There's really only one jewel left in the crown and that is CANSOFCOM

It's the only thing Canada can do well anymore, train a small force of really elite Special Reconnaissance and Direct Action Infantrymen.

CANSOFCOM is the army within the army, and it's the only formation which is well equipped, because it is the only one allowed to do its own procurement, and they just buy off the shelf what American SOF uses.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

If Canada wants to be part of the battlespace network, it will have to have an aircraft capable of integrating into that network and contributing sensor data.   No more waiting for the Americans to collect, process, and dole out the target packages for Canada's 10,000 human rights lawyers to review and approve.   The A2AD environment moves too fast for that.  

 

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

If Canada wants to be part of the battlespace network, it will have to have an aircraft capable of integrating into that network and contributing sensor data.   No more waiting for the Americans to collect, process, and dole out the target packages for Canada's 10,000 human rights lawyers to review and approve.   The A2AD environment moves too fast for that. 

Canada does not function at that level of operational awareness.

All that matters to Canadians is the defense pork, the pork is not a byproduct, the pork is the product, all other military concerns are jettisoned.

That's actually the same for everything the GoC does, Confederation itslef is the ultimate boondoggle

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Canada does not function at that level of operational awareness.

All that matters to Canadians is the defense pork, the pork is not a byproduct, the pork is the product, all other military concerns are jettisoned.

 

Canada won't even bomb a terrorist out-house without human rights lawyer approvals.

Hell...F-35 can even do its own BDA...bomb damage assessment.

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada won't even bomb a terrorist out-house without human rights lawyer approvals.

Hell...F-35 can even do its own BDA...bomb damage assessment.

F-35 can drop its bombs, then loiter to do ISR and BDA for the entire package, in high resolution, searchable database from the ALIS

The force multiplication is revolutionary.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

F-35 can drop its bombs, then loiter to do ISR and BDA for the entire package, in high resolution, searchable database from the ALIS

The force multiplication is revolutionary.

 

...and that's what has the Canadian peacenik weenies so worried...the F-35 does it all and does it better....bombing the crap out of the "enemy".

The best defense is a strong offense.

 

[Dougie93]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

...and that's what has the Canadian peacenik weenies so worried...the F-35 does it all and does it better....bombing the crap out of the "enemy".

The best defense is a strong offense.

Indeed, and when you recognize that the contemporary concept of operations is Information Warfare and the F-35 is the information dominant platform?

Then you realize that F-35 is actually the hi asset in the hi-lo mix, the F-22 is the lo asset now, F-22 is relegated to a supporting role, F-35 is the main event.

[Dougie93]

The F-35 is also the market dominant weapon.  It's not just about dropping bombs, it's cornering its market.

Market forces is what the American Hegenomy is really all about.

F-35 fights for King Dollar at the Geo-Strategic level.

American IOU's, Flight to Quality, Manifest Destiny, Empire of Liberty.

Canada is, as per usual,  being penny wise and pound foolish by kicking itself out of this global supply chain

The long view industrial benefits dwarf anything Boeing can offer.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Indeed, and when you recognize that the contemporary concept of operations is Information Warfare and the F-35 is the information dominant platform?

Then you realize that F-35 is actually the hi asset in the hi-lo mix, the F-22 is the lo asset now, F-22 is relegated to a supporting role, F-35 is the main event.

 

Right on...the USAF is already looking to the Next-Gen fighter that replaces the F-22 and F-15 while keeping F-35 in service.

US Navy is also looking to keep F-35C and replacing F-18 E/F.

Canada would just be falling further behind its allies without F-35.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Right on...the USAF is already looking to the Next-Gen fighter that replaces the F-22 and F-15 while keeping F-35 in service.

US Navy is also looking to keep F-35C and replacing F-18 E/F.

Northrup Grumman adds stealth bombers and UCAVs, then you have a package which is completely stealth.

The bombers hit the regime targets, the F-22 flies sweep and escort, UCAVs fly SEAD, F-35 hits everything else.

[bush_cheney2004]

When these F-35 threads started here on MLW  (there have been several over the years), some members would just refer to buy new "replacement jets"..."jets"...as if it was the 1950's and it was still a new thing.   And they also meant just one model, as this was all Canada could afford, if that.

So pick one model of new "jet" and make it happen....simple...right ?

Nope...because what it really means is pick a new "jet" that provides the most jobs and political advantages for Quebec and Ontario.

Therein lies the rub....and delays...and circle jerking.

[Dougie93]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

Therein lies the rub....and delays...and circle jerking.

Therein lies all that Canada is about now, it's literally the silliest country on earth, bar none.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

Northrup Grumman adds stealth bombers and UCAVs, then you have a package which is completely stealth.

The bombers hit the regime targets, the F-22 flies sweep and escort, UCAVs fly SEAD, F-35 hits everything else.

 

US Navy has a different priority now that carrier group ranges must be increased because of new cruise/ballistic missiles designed to cripple the big American bird farms (e.g. from China).    It's gotten to the point now that EA-18 Prowlers are being used for tanker duty.

USAF will be doing the long range penetration with aircraft....Navy will use more missiles.

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

When these F-35 threads started here on MLW  (there have been several over the years), some members would just refer to buy new "replacement jets"..."jets"...as if it was the 1950's and it was still a new thing.   And they also meant just one model, as this was all Canada could afford, if that.

Or the other thing they say is that all manned assets are obsolete and Canada should just buy "cheap drones"

Which America actually has for sale as well, Kratos XQ-58 Valkyrie

Kratos is even a market disruptor looking to break into a niche, Canada could be the cheap drone air force if they want to be, but they won't be that neither.

Canada doesn't do the usual thing, but Canada doesn't do its own thing neither, Canada does no thing.

That's is the essence of the Post National State and associated CBC propaganda arm.

The main thing is that the CBC get funded and the RCMP not be blamed for anything, after that, everything is optional but nothing is required.

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

US Navy has a different priority now that carrier group ranges must be increased because of new cruise/ballistic missiles designed to cripple the big American bird farms (e.g. from China).    It's gotten to the point now that EA-18 Prowlers are being used for tanker duty.

USAF will be doing the long range penetration with aircraft....Navy will use more missiles.

F-35 is more about arming the PACOM allies, like it gives Japan carrier strike, or it gives Australia dominance over Indonesia, but it''s not a strategic weapon.

it is what it is, a tactical fighter optimized for interdiction.

I don't think the Navy should move the carriers into the A2AD zone at all, until the submarines have cleared it all out first.

The Carriers can be used defensively at first to provide air cover for the Aegis BMD combatants, when strategic forces have knocked the A2AD down, then the Carriers can move in closer.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Or the other thing they say is that all manned assets are obsolete and Canada should just buy "cheap drones"

 

Some of the "buy drones" crowd is just trying to divert and delay any decision and spending for a new strike fighter.   So they pretend to be for the most bleeding edge unmanned platforms, knowing full well that it will not happen.   Net result is as you say...Canada does nothing...their objective.

 

[Dougie93]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Some of the "buy drones" crowd is just trying to divert and delay any decision and spending for a new strike fighter.   So they pretend to be for the most bleeding edge unmanned platforms, knowing full well that it will not happen.   Net result is as you say...Canada does nothing...their objective.

 

This is what the Democrats and Lolberg Libertarians do too, it's the fake reform gurus, but it's all just obfuscation for its own sake, for the purposes of obstruction.

The Planting Aristocracy lives, and they are traitors to the Union still.

[Dougie93]

In the Pacific, head to head with China, the Submariners remain the arm of decision.  SSN.  SSGN.  SSBN.

The lever against China is that America will sink her navy, to include coastal and inland A2AD assets.

At which point the range of the Carrier Strike Group is more than sufficient for mopping up

If China has not resorted to it's startegic deterrent first that is, which is where the SSBN comes into play. Sword of Damocles.

ZOMG Carrier Strike Range is just more  RAND Corporation hand wringing, it's what they do.

It's a system of systems, no asset is fighting in a vacuum, you'd think the RAND Corporation would have figured this out by now,

The RAND Corporation is the Best & Brightest, they always get it wrong.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

16 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

In the Pacific, head to head with China, the Submariners remain the arm of decision.  SSN.  SSGN.  SSBN.

The lever against China is that America will sink her navy, to include coastal and inland A2AD assets.

At which point the range of the Carrier Strike Group is more than sufficient for mopping up, if China has not resorted to it's startegic deterrent first, which is where the SSBN comes into play.

 

I think the immediate concern is client states that may resort to attacking U.S. carriers with Chinese (export/derived) weapons.   China is still trying out its superpower training wheels and cannot project conventional military power outside of its region.    They don't need to sink the carrier, just disrupt operations or take out an oiler.

F-35 deliveries to partner nations and new customers in Asia/Oceania will help to keep the status quo.  

India has chosen LockMart's F-21, which is an F-16 Block 70 with a bit of F-35 avionics and AIM-120 hard points/launcher.   

There is lots of activity for tactical air around the world....those who choose to be left behind will be left behind.

Edited September 1, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Dougie93]

19 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

There is lots of activity for tactical air around the world....those who choose to be left behind will be left behind.

Canada is choosing to be left behind, contrary to its global pretensions, the Post National State is actually isolationist.

It's an Iron Curtain against America, but Canada has also become a intentional laughing stock, so Canada is rather  alone in the world, ignored.

Canada is basically just a launchpad for crazy left wing extremist attacks on America, by rights Canada should be kicked out of the JSF program.

That would actually be the best way to sell it to them.

Because of course as soon as they were told that they can't have it, then their pathological insecurity would make them demand to have it.

Silliest country on earth, bar none. 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

32 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

I think the immediate concern is client states that may resort to attacking U.S. carriers with Chinese (export/derived) weapons.   China is still trying out its superpower training wheels and cannot project conventional military power outside of its region.    They don't need to sink the carrier, just disrupt operations or take out an oiler.

Wouldn't be worth it, first of all Chinese kit is fake news, the Russian stuff is the deadly stuff, Chicom is still junk

But also what client is going to try take the US Navy on?  It's suicidal.   If somebody is taking the US Navy on, they ain't doing that for China,

Rand Corporation Domino Theory Hand Wringing.    The Communists are not Ten Feet Tall, their clients are literally pygmies.

Not that I as a shareholder don't want to pimp more weapons to the MICC for my supper, but that's all that hand wringing is about.

If they want to wring hands, they should wringing it about counterforce, because now that they have pulled out of ABM and INF, they are sending the message that they are preparing to fight and win a theater thermonuclear war, while at the same time they are slow walking the funds for that.

If you're gonna go there; you gotta go all the way, and you got to roll it out with alacrity,

[Dougie93]

If you want to attack the American Hegenomy, missiles is not the way to do it anyways.

Strategic power flows on the Sea Lines Of Communications. (SLOC)

Here again the arm of decision is the submarines.

All Ivan has to do is torpedo smart mine the approaches to the choke points covertly.

Panama, Gibraltar, Suez, Djibouti, Hormuz, Malacca.   

That grinds the world to a halt in a matter of days,

Laying mines is easy, clearing them is slow.

The beauty of the smart mine is that it only attacks acoustic signatures you program it to, ships you don't want sunk it ignores.

This is how Ivan can mess China's shit up too, because Ivan has the interior lines of communication, Ivan is the only Hegemon who does not rely on the sea.

Ivan also has the special mission subs, so Ivan can play the Ivy Bells card as well, more precise operations like severing undersea cables, Underwater Information War.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[Rue]

5 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

There's really only one jewel left in the crown and that is CANSOFCOM

It's the only thing Canada can do well anymore, train a small force of really elite Special Reconnaissance and Direct Action Infantrymen.

CANSOFCOM is the army within the army, and it's the only formation which is well equipped, because it is the only one allowed to do its own procurement, and they just buy off the shelf what American SOF uses.

Again while I think you are insane and weird someone should read you carefully. You again state dead on what is fact.  Conventional armies have been replaced with small rapidly mobile elite specially trained units. With today's technology having large, loud slow moving poorly trained soldiers and complex logistic support lines which are sitting ducks for guerillas is outmoded.

People who talk about wars and invasions do not understand the cost of huge slow moving armies compared to elite fast moving units,  aircraft, drones,.

Warfare has changed. Soon we will have dna cloned soldiers all looking like Justin Trudeau as well but that is another story.

Now I have argued from the get go as have some others on this forum that the Griphen was the best jet per cost and money.  However if they had intended to choose it they would have done it by now. There is no competition. The F35 lobby network has a lock on its bloated contract. At best if Trudeau is relected the idiot will continue with his old F18's complete with incompatible old F18's from Australia continuing the tradition of always having an armed force that is a joke to the world because its leaders who claim to be trendy leftists rely always on the US's defence umbrella. The corruption in Trudeau's regime in regards to navy and air procurement let alone allowing the decay of the army is a tradition that continues in Canada since the end of WW2.

There is zero excuse. A griphen fleet could have replaced our aging F18's plus leave money left over for navy purchases. We have no navy. Our airforce runs on a miracle and our soldiers have bad equipment but hey who cares because once we put them in dangerous situations and bring them back we have $10 million for Omar Kadr but pennies for soldiers with serious post trauma wounds and injuries. That's our priority.

I have zero trust in any government in this regard but you know out of the lot, out of default I have to vote Sheer. It would be irresponsible to waste my vote. What a joice. A studdering closeted spoiled idiot, a man who never worked a day in his life claiming to be a champion of the working class,  some idiot with the i.q. of a doughnut who leaves sensitive info lying around while he shags some motorcycle groupie chick spying on him and some guy with dimples who always looks like he farted and is embarrassed about it.

Run for office Dougie. We need an insane person. The only sane people on this planet are insane people like you. Your responses to Taxme on the other thread were gems man. No one handles the crap like you. Problem is I will vote for Army Guy first. At least he will wear clothes at his inauguration. You I am not sure. 

Serously back to what you said, dead on but I am a Griphen supporter. We do not need an F35 and never did. We need a quick interceptor with low maintenance that can land in isolated small spaces. It can use all the old F18 weaponry, requires only 5 men maintenance crews, can land on ice, and can we get serious if the Chinese or Russians came across our air space we need interceptors until the Raptors get there. The Griphen is mobile enough to intercept and cause shit until Raptors got there. What we need are icebreakers for the North, a properly financed and trained Ranger unit to patrol the North as well, submarines and state of the art fast moving naval vessels for coastal patrols against drug smugglers, illegal fishing boats, and submarine detection. It is inexcusable we have no navy. As for the infantry God bless them but wars today are fought by elite small moving units, helicopters and fighters. I also even question tank squadrons. As for invading cities and using soldiers as police its foolhardy. Using soldiers as garrisons to control sprawling territory is antiquated. Today you control people with drugs, cell phones, junk food, currency control.

 

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

Again while I think you are insane and weird someone should read you carefully. You again state dead on what is fact.  Conventional armies have been replaced with small rapidly mobile elite specially trained units. With today's technology having large, loud slow moving poorly trained soldiers and complex logistic support lines which are sitting ducks for guerillas is outmoded.

Not sure why you think I am mentally ill,  perhaps you are a radical conformist and my rugged individualism simply upsets your carefully ordered worldview.

In terms of asymmetrical  warfare, I wouldn't over interpret, symmetrical and conventional forces still play a role.

Asymmetrical and unconventional are simply options for those who lack strength to try to leverage a larger and more powerful opponent.

That could be large formations of maneuver forces as well, Russia is fighting NATO asymmetrically, but the Russian rebels in Ukraine are an army, they have tanks, they have lots of artillery,  and the Ukrainians need an army to fight them, there's plenty of maneuver going on in that insurgency.

Even in Vietnam, the National Liberation Front didn't win the war, the North Vietnamese Army did,  it was millions strong and they fought plenty of conventional engagements, including four massive offensives, the last one fully mechanized.

Guerilla warfare is no picnic, contrary to your sentiment, the Guerillas rarely win on the battlefield, they are usually crushed, it's more about politics, if your conventional force maneuver does not include a political resolution, and you're not prepared to mass liquidate the population, that's when you end up with an ongoing insurgency.

Seizing and holding topographic terrain is still viable, and for some countries it makes sense, Israel, India, South Korea etc, there are conventional frontlines still.

Canada however, is like Switzerland,  in that Canada is in a very safe spot, other than if it makes itself an enemy of America.

In terms of Gripen, Canada is not buying Gripen, all these competitions are fake, as was mentioned, Canada has strict requirements for NORAD, it's a very exclusive club, there's only two members, and in order to stay in this bilateral club, Canada has to buy American.

So the real choices are F-35 or Super Hornet.  Super Hornet is not better, and it's not cheaper neither, so it would be entirely a political decision to go with Boeing, and since these are fake competitions which are all rigged, everything is political, nothing the GoC does here has anything to do with the actual capabilities and costs, it's all pandering for domestic consumption.

In terms of your assertion that the RCAF should operate dispersed from remote fields, that's not how the RCAF operates,  and the only reason to operate like that would be because you lack strategic depth, while Canada perhaps has the most strategic depth in the world except for Russia.  Also the assumption that F-35 cannot operate like that, is incorrect, the F-35 can do that too if needed.

Whatever fighter you are buying, realpoiltik, it is for the purposes of Coalition Warfare with NATO, which is what the RCAF knows, which is why they want F-35. You think you know better than the RCAF? No, you don't, they know what these fighters are for, they are trying to get the one which is right for the RCAF

[Dougie93]

Again, the F-35 is the best option for countries which need tactical air forces, Canada, like New Zealand,  could decide to jettison that capability altogether, but if Canada is going to have a tactical air force, anything other than F-35 would be a huge mistake.

F-35 will also be the cheapest to operate in the long run, military hardware costs are all about economies of scale, the bigger the fleet, the better the economy.  Canada often chooses what are called Orphaned Fleets, like the SSK-876 Victoria class submarines for example, this is classic Canadian penny wise pound foolishness, which wastes money by the billions,

The opposition to F-35 is just more knee jerk Canadian Anti-Americanism and pandering to the Canadian left, who don't want a military at all, hence why they've spent the last fifty years trying to dismantle it.

Here by the way, is the Americans operating F-35 from remote austere forward operating location,  the F-35 is the choice of the Norwegians in the remote Nordic regions, the Marine Corps for Expeditionary Warfare, but USAF can do it too.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93