Terror the problem, not Islamophobia

[Big Guy]

I doubt ...

This dialogue is going nowhere. You are not interested in my views and I am starting to lose interest in yours. Have a nice day.

[WestCoastRunner]

So Canada is supposed to impose increased human rights in some Middle East countries? Just how would you do that?

I asked for solutions to the problem you appear to believe in. I do not believe that Islam or Muslims are a problem. Religious extremism has always been a problem and we have survived it.

.

I think that Islam is a problem for women and others fighting for their humsn rights. Certainly Canada and other nations should do everything in their power to help these individuals suffering under this religion and other human rights issues.

Obviously, what we and other countries have been doing isn't helping much. Perhaps this needs a new thread.

[WestCanMan]

So Canada is supposed to impose increased human rights in some Middle East countries? Just how would you do that?

I asked for solutions to the problem you appear to believe in. I do not believe that Islam or Muslims are a problem. Religious extremism has always been a problem and we have survived it.

If there is anything we could do, I would assume it would be to NOT create more religious extremists.

How do we do that ?

Read all the posts on this site about how we are creating religious extremists and suicide bombers them through our participation in those civil wars in the Middle East.

Do you actually know what makes people join Isis now BigGuy? What made them follow all the other killing sprees over the last 1,500 years on all the various continents? Was that D Trump too? Is D Trump a weally weally good reason for them to blow up some more people?

News flash, those idiots say "we're coming to America to Kill you" all the time. Isn't it prudent at some point to say "hmmm, if they're telling us that they are coming here to kill us, shouldn't we try to stop them from coming over here and killing us? Or is that racist?"

Canadians have done peacekeeping all over the world. Are you saying we should just leave the kurds to face Isis all by themselves, just like we let Saddam gas them while we did nothing? Or should we stay out of it because we're not muslims? We should only protect other white christians hey big guy? But, but, but... wouldn't that make us racists too? This is soooo difficult!!! I think that no matter what we do we're just racists for either doing something or not doing anything.

First they came for the kurds and I wasn't a kurd so I did nothing. Then they were happy so they didn't even kill the jews. Is that how it goes? I think you're the history expert. All I know is that all cultures are identical, you taught me that.

[Smoke]

This is soooo difficult!!! I think that no matter what we do we're just racists for either doing something or not doing anything.

That, in a nutshell, is the kind of atmosphere that is created by too much political correctness.

[Big Guy]

Do you actually know what makes people join Isis now BigGuy? What made them follow all the other killing sprees over the last 1,500 years on all the various continents? Was that D Trump too? Is D Trump a weally weally good reason for them to blow up some more people?

News flash, those idiots say "we're coming to America to Kill you" all the time. Isn't it prudent at some point to say "hmmm, if they're telling us that they are coming here to kill us, shouldn't we try to stop them from coming over here and killing us? Or is that racist?"

Canadians have done peacekeeping all over the world. Are you saying we should just leave the kurds to face Isis all by themselves, just like we let Saddam gas them while we did nothing? Or should we stay out of it because we're not muslims? We should only protect other white christians hey big guy? But, but, but... wouldn't that make us racists too? This is soooo difficult!!! I think that no matter what we do we're just racists for either doing something or not doing anything.

First they came for the kurds and I wasn't a kurd so I did nothing. Then they were happy so they didn't even kill the jews. Is that how it goes? I think you're the history expert. All I know is that all cultures are identical, you taught me that.

Obviously I taught you nothing nor is it my role to do so.

If you feel that Canada should be enforcing its morality on others then I disagree. You may feel that the Middle East was in a terrible state with dictators killing their own citizens and just .... dictating. You may feel that Canadian involvement in Vietnam, Somalia, Afghanistan, Libya and now Iraq and Syria made things better for their populations then I suggest you check the stats on death rates before we got involved and death rates during our involvement and rate of deaths lately. My interpretation is that things are a lot worse for them and that our actions have caused threats of terrorism here.

When they kill innocent people here we call it horrific terrorism and vow vengeance. When we kill innocent people there, we call it "acceptable collateral action" and "casualties of war" and wonder why they want retaliation and vengeance. We created that war on them not them on us. The more we get involved over there the more problems are being created. Now we have Saudi Arabia and Iran ready to go at it with us in the middle. Madness!!!!!

We obviously disagree about the effect of our military involvement in the Middle East - and the situation there is becoming more volatile every day.

Lets wait and see what happens to see who is correct.

As to the terrorists, cheer up:

video

Edited January 6, 2016 by Michael Hardner
video link

[eyeball]

News flash, those idiots say "we're coming to America to Kill you" all the time. Isn't it prudent at some point to say "hmmm, if they're telling us that they are coming here to kill us, shouldn't we try to stop them from coming over here and killing us? Or is that racist?"

You're completely misinformed. They want us to go meet them on their ground. Doing what they want is just plain stupid.

[CITIZEN_2015]

German women assaulted and robbed by a gang of thousand appeared to be of Arab/North African origin .

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

This is indeed very disturbing for more reasons than one.

1 - It will give real bad names to the great majority of Arab/North African immigrants who go by their own business everyday and will condemn or will never take part in such actions (1000 is less than 1 percent of Arab immigrants in Germany). All people of Arab/North African origins will be feared, hated or regarded same (falsely) by many in Germany and elsewhere in the world.

2 - It may likely shut the door to all the millions of remaining genuine asylum seekers who are hoping for better lives abroad as the governments and nations will turn against them, the overwhelming majority of whom are good law abiding people and very likely would condemn these actions or will never take part in similar actions.

3 - The actions by these sub-human animals likely out of hatred or revenge for western cultures or people would give rise to Donald Trump and his gangs and persuade people like myself (who always been supportive of underdogs and believe in equality of humans regardless of race, origin or religion) to call also for a ban on immigration from Arab/North African countries.

These likely Arab asylum seekers (if that was who they were and the indications are they were) must be caught one by one (they have cameras in German streets I am sure) and not deported but punished according to the laws of the place they come from. They come to west seeking help and taking advantage of the west's democratic system and commit atrocities against same people who try to help them. These are bunch of cowered animals (anyone who target the weak and defenseless is nothing but a sub-human cowered). They deserve same punishment as a violent dog who attacks people causing harm. They are lower and dirtier than those violent dogs.

Edited January 8, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[eyeball]

This is indeed very disturbing for more reasons than one.

(1000 is less than 1 percent of Arab immigrants in Germany).

Yep, you could probably find as many soccer hooligans doing similar at any given time.

They'll probably hire soccer hooligans to be Muslim deportation camp guards in the future.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Yep, you could probably find as many soccer hooligans doing similar at any given time.

They'll probably hire soccer hooligans to be Muslim deportation camp guards in the future.

I am not sure if soccer hooligans would attack defenseless women out of hate or distorted/twisted religious beliefs but the big difference here is that these animals are breaking the trust of the same people who gave them asylum with intention to help them while they were in a desperate situation and in addition these attacks may have been out of hate and the belief that women of different race/religion should be assaulted. They must be arrested and punish to the maximum extend of the law.

[eyeball]

I am not sure if soccer hooligans would attack defenseless women out of hate or distorted/twisted religious beliefs but the big difference here is that these animals are breaking the trust of the same people who gave them asylum with intention to help them while they were in a desperate situation and in addition these attacks may have been out of hate and the belief that women of different race/religion should be assaulted. They must be arrested and punish to the maximum extend of the law.

Of course they should be arrested and punished, for attacking women.

All this nonsense about violating some condition of asylum is just pouring gasoline on a fire. It's going to blow up in your face, but maybe that's what you really want.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Of course they should be arrested and punished, for attacking women.

All this nonsense about violating some condition of asylum is just pouring gasoline on a fire. It's going to blow up in your face, but maybe that's what you really want.

They should be punished according to the laws of where they come from so that others don't think they can get away with these horrific crimes because of democratic system in place.

What condition of asylum?? I said nothing about that and why this should blow in my face!!!!!!!!!!!! and what is that I really want????

[eyeball]

What condition of asylum?? I said nothing about that

You certainly said something about asylum and these attacks in the same breath...you even said it was big so...either you flesh out what that means or leave it up to us to do so.

the big difference here is that these animals are breaking the trust of the same people who gave them asylum

and why this should blow in my face!!!!!!!!!!!! and what is that I really want????

Because insisting these attacks had everything to do with race only incites fear and loathing against the other 99.whatever% of Muslims that had absolutely nothing to do with what happened New Years Eve in Germany. Fear and loathing will only empower the hard-boiled right-wing in Germany, read; throw gasoline on a fire.

If you really don't understand what's wrong with that picture than I really don't know what the hell you people want at all.

Edited January 6, 2016 by eyeball

[CITIZEN_2015]

You certainly said something about asylum and these attacks in the same breath...you even said it was big so...either you flesh out what that means or leave it up to us to do so.

I said what the attached article said. I wasn't there to see!!!!! Did you even read the article?

This is part of the article

A policeman who was outside Cologne station during the New Year's Eve trouble told the city's Express news website that he had detained eight suspects. "They were all asylum seekers, carrying copies of their residence certificates," he said.

In my post I even said IF what was who they were (Arab asylum seekers) as shown below but you chose to ignore (did you read my post even?).

These likely Arab asylum seekers (if that was who they were and the indications are they were)

And as for race again in the article (and a few Canadian newspapers too):

Because insisting these attacks had everything to do with race only incites fear and loathing against the other 99.whatever% of Muslims that had absolutely nothing to do with what happened New Years Eve in Germany. Fear and loathing will only empower the hard-boiled right-wing in Germany, read; throw gasoline on a fire.

If you really don't understand what's wrong with that picture than I really don't know what the hell you people want at all.

City police chief Wolfgang Albers called it "a completely new dimension of crime". The men were of Arab or North African appearance, he said.

I hate this incident as much as you do maybe even more and that was well reflected in my post for the reasons I stated in my post. I thought I would be the last person to be accused of racism and bigotry as in all my posts I defended them but I am mad like hell right now. They must be punished severely because they betrayed the trust of German people who welcomed them and they also betrayed their own people and religion by shutting the door on them and giving it a bad name.

What I want is that hatred and bigotry from all sides (fascists, racists, bigots and religious fanatics) end and those who give bad names to their people and religion must be punished as severe as their own laws allows so that the other 99% live in peace.

Edited January 6, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[eyeball]

I hate this incident as much as you do maybe even more and that was well reflected in my post for the reasons I stated in my post. I thought I would be the last person to be accused of racism and bigotry as in all my posts I defended them but I am mad like hell right now. They must be punished severely because they betrayed the trust of German people who welcomed them and they also betrayed their own people and religion by shutting the door on them and giving it a bad name.

You also said;

The actions by these sub-human animals likely out of hatred or revenge for western cultures or people would give rise to Donald Trump and his gangs and persuade people like myself (who always been supportive of underdogs and believe in equality of humans regardless of race, origin or religion) to call also for a ban on immigration from Arab/North African countries.

People like myself were warning about this turn of events over a decade ago as a result of pursuing policies that were turning the ME into a quagmire.

You strike me as the sort of person who condemned people like me as a terrorist supporting traitor for criticizing those policies, perhaps I'm mistaken.

[CITIZEN_2015]

You also said;

People like myself were warning about this turn of events over a decade ago as a result of pursuing policies that were turning the ME into a quagmire.

You strike me as the sort of person who condemned people like me as a terrorist supporting traitor for criticizing those policies, perhaps I'm mistaken.

I have been myself posting many times about the western policies in ME and the atrocities both US and Britain (and Russia) have committed and now you are preaching these to me!!!!!!!. Have you even read any of my posts? The latest about western policies in ME among many others is quoted below just a couple of days ago:

Yes basically that is it. Helping to occupy Palestine, installing puppet regimes to steal oil and control the region. The 1953 British-CIA sponsored coup which led to Iranian revolution which changed the political map of the world. The unilateral western support for Saddam Hussein Iraq in its invasion of Iran, The subsequent invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, the support for stinky regime in Saudi Arabia. Unilateral unconditional support for Israel. And yes they do anything to protect the oil there and its pathway (Persian Gulf, and strait of Hormuz)). Including a pact with the devil.

But western atrocities has NOTHING to do with the women who were violently and cowardly attacked or attacks on innocent defenseless civilians and in this instant the hatred these apparent asylum seekers have shown towards the people who actually have welcomed them into their homeland or their religious bigotry and hate for others..

What you say doesn't make sense. Why would I condemn you as a terrorist!!!!!.

Edited January 7, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[eyeball]

But western atrocities has NOTHING to do with the women who were violently and cowardly attacked or attacks on innocent defenseless civilians and in this instant the hatred these apparent asylum seekers have shown towards the people who actually have welcomed them into their homeland or their religious bigotry and hate for others..

Western atrocities have a lot to do with the retarded social development of the regions these refugees come from. It's not enough to just cite western atrocities over time while ignoring the effects of those atrocities.

I'm perfectly willing to hold people accountable for their misdeeds but I'm not willing to condemn refugees from such backward regions as being a;

bunch of cowered animals (anyone who target the weak and defenseless is nothing but a sub-human cowered). They deserve same punishment as a violent dog who attacks people causing harm. They are lower and dirtier than those violent dogs.

I'm as willing to cut these people as much slack as I would cut any abuser who was abused themselves. Judges and criminal courts do this all the time, It's called looking at the bigger picture and extenuating circumstances. I don't see a shred of that in your posts on this issue.

All I see you doing is referring to human beings as animals and walking straight into the trap the Trumps and other apologists for the west's complicity are setting.

What you say doesn't make sense. Why would I condemn you as a terrorist!!!!!.

I said terrorist supporting traitor.

It's only recently that the condemnation is verging on lumping me straight in with the terrorists. You can thank the likes of Harper for that I guess.

[kimmy]

Yep, you could probably find as many soccer hooligans doing similar at any given time.

I've fairly confident that if hundreds of soccer hooligans committed hundreds of sexual assaults in one city on one night we'd have heard about it, but if you could find a cite to indicate such a thing had happened, that might boost your argument.

The last time I heard about soccer hooligans, it was a group who forcibly removed a black man from the train they had boarded. They didn't throw him under the tracks, they left him on the platform. Also, they didn't steal his purse and cell phone. Also, they didn't sexually assault him. But they did remove him from the train, and that was international news.

-k

[kimmy]

I should add, if people read about this incident and their first reaction is "gee, that's terrible for the asylum seekers!" then we have a much bigger problem than Islamophobia to deal with.

However, that seems to be what the reaction of German police and German media was to this. Germany's public broadcaster ZDF today apologized for failing to report the story. Cologne's police had initially reported a peaceful and incident-free New Year's Eve and didn't fess up until the story blew up.

-k

[eyeball]

It's FUBAR, you'll get no argument from me. These refugees are screwed-up people from a screwed-up region in a screwed-up world. If why it's so screwed up is neither here nor there who am I to complain? Round em all up and put them into camps if you like.

You know damn well where that's going to lead, Especially in Germany.

Where's my popcorn?

[CITIZEN_2015]

Western atrocities have a lot to do with the retarded social development of the regions these refugees come from. It's not enough to just cite western atrocities over time while ignoring the effects of those atrocities.

I'm perfectly willing to hold people accountable for their misdeeds but I'm not willing to condemn refugees from such backward regions as being a;

I'm as willing to cut these people as much slack as I would cut any abuser who was abused themselves. Judges and criminal courts do this all the time, It's called looking at the bigger picture and extenuating circumstances. I don't see a shred of that in your posts on this issue.

All I see you doing is referring to human beings as animals and walking straight into the trap the Trumps and other apologists for the west's complicity are setting.

I said terrorist supporting traitor.

It's only recently that the condemnation is verging on lumping me straight in with the terrorists. You can thank the likes of Harper for that I guess.

Retarded social development has nothing to do with western atrocities but rather their own culture which separates boys and girls from childhood in schools, and men and women in buses, public places and parks and bans music and parties. And forces their women into wearing burka or hejab and in many parts even deprived them from education or high positions, in some parts even driving and voting.

These tiny minority (0.1% of total) are animals because they behave like animals and I am shocked to see anyone trying to justify what appears to be a pre-planned, coordinated cowardly sexual attacks on defenseless innocent women and very disappointed too. I also do not accept any justification for a spouse beater because in childhood he witnessed his father beating his mother or justify the action of a rapist because he was raped or a serial rapist because his mother was a prostitute . EVERYBODY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN ACTIONS. These people are violent animals and should be treated as violent animals. That is being put to death. And I say this for whoever attacks women and children regardless of race, religion, color or nationality.

Edited January 7, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[kimmy]

Germany's politicians (and our own) are not tasked with attempting to correct political decisions of the past.

They are tasked first and foremost with protecting their own citizens.

Germany's "the more the merrier" attitude towards bringing in third-world asylum seekers has clearly put the safety of German women at risk.

Let's not repeat their mistake.

-k

[Guest]

I've fairly confident that if hundreds of soccer hooligans committed hundreds of sexual assaults in one city on one night we'd have heard about it, but if you could find a cite to indicate such a thing had happened, that might boost your argument.

The last time I heard about soccer hooligans, it was a group who forcibly removed a black man from the train they had boarded. They didn't throw him under the tracks, they left him on the platform. Also, they didn't steal his purse and cell phone. Also, they didn't sexually assault him. But they did remove him from the train, and that was international news.

-k

Chelsea if I remember rightly. If they had been asylum seekers, I'd have understood their deportation. Wouldn't have been happy about it, as the fewer Chelsea fans the better, but I would have understood it.

Certainly any asylum seekers found guilty of a crime in the country in which they are seeking asylum deserve to be rejected and deported.

Edited January 7, 2016 by bcsapper

[eyeball]

Retarded social development has nothing to do with western atrocities but rather their own culture which separates boys and girls from childhood in schools, and men and women in buses, public places and parks and bans music and parties. And forces their women into wearing burka or hejab and in many parts even deprived them from education or high positions, in some parts even driving and voting.

These things were beginning to wane naturally on their own following WW2 just as they waned in Western cultures barely a generation of so ahead of them. Then we set them back on their asases in a war that we waged using dictatorships as pawns against another dictatorship.

I honestly feel overlooking this indicates an even deeper form of moral retardation, especially given it's the citizens of the shiniest beacons of liberty and democracy who are overlooking this.

These tiny minority (0.1% of total) are animals because they behave like animals and I am shocked to see anyone trying to justify what appears to be a pre-planned, coordinated cowardly sexual attacks on defenseless innocent women and very disappointed too.

I'm a lefty, your disappointment was a forgone conclusion.

I also do not accept any justification for a spouse beater because in childhood he witnessed his father beating his mother or justify the action of a rapist because he was raped or a serial rapist because his mother was a prostitute . These people are animals and should be treated as violent animals. That is being put to death.

Well, we have a tradition of accepting extenuating circumstances in our laws and there's no excuse for eschewing this tradition and slagging it by referring to it as a process for justifying bad behaviour. Our laws also have a tradition of incorporating forgiveness and the moral insights derived from putting ourselves in another's shoes and then doing unto other's as we'd have done to us but I don't see much if any of that in your posts either.

[eyeball]

Germany's politicians (and our own) are not tasked with attempting to correct political decisions of the past.

They are tasked first and foremost with protecting their own citizens.

Germany's "the more the merrier" attitude towards bringing in third-world asylum seekers has clearly put the safety of German women at risk.

Let's not repeat their mistake.

-k

Protecting their citizens is exactly what Germany's politicians were doing. The more-the-merrier attitude was born of the same desperate attitude we have towards bringing in immigrants to ensure our economies stay afloat n the face of aging populations with near zero population growth.

It's the shortsightedness of stupid economic and political decisions of the past we need to correct. Failing to do so is the mistake we're repeating. Of course it doesn't help matters that so many of those decisions also resulted in maintaining a lot of backwardness while also fuelling a lot of resentment around the world.

What the hell were we thinking anyway?

[sirius]

Happy New 2016 Year!

Excuse me for my english, it is my second language. Hope you can get the idea.

Terror is a tricky word. It is a matter of perception. Usualy the perception is formed by the media including the school. The truth is that islamic (not only) world have been put in a desparate situation and it is trying to survive. Palestine, Iraq, Libia. Last two was democratised to ruins. But it is not called terror. And when somebody blow him self together with other dosen - it is a terror.

It is another thing that the terror attacks may have been organised or helped by the country who call it terror. It is called 'forming an enemy'. Charly Hebdo is a typycal example.

The diference between terror and criminal act is that the first has some idea behind. Usualy political. Some nations, islamic for example, fight back and some like natives don't.

And put this in the big historical context where nations try to dominate....

Islam is noting more than an religion. And it is from the same nest with the Christian religion. And another one. And all religions are formed quite a time ago on a particular culture as a fundament. And they all are layd out to put funament for surviving societies. Now we are living in a different world where these fundamental values are diminished by his majesty the dollar (money). So, welcome.

Edited January 7, 2016 by sirius