Terror the problem, not Islamophobia

[Argus]

I believe that Canada has contributed to the number of refugees produced by our military actions in the Middle East.

Clearly the complete absence of any kind of evidence to support that belief does not pose a problem for you.

[Smallc]

The evidence says you're wrong. Most of the Toronto 19 were the second generation. The faith liberals have that the generation born in Canada will grow up being just like everyone else here is quaint,

It's generally correct too. Not every white boy grows up to be a saint.

[Argus]

It's generally correct too. Not every white boy grows up to be a saint.

That's hardly the point, and no, it's not correct. You're assuming it only because we haven't previously dealt with very large communities of an entirely different kind of religion prior to this. There are more than sufficient members of the Muslim community to perpetuate the same religious inspired cultures and values as we see in Muslim nations around the world.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Are you proposing we bring millions of Arabs over here, then? If we did, then in all likelihood the problems of religious extremism in the middle east would appear here in Canada, as well.

There was a survey taken a few years back, that I recall, where more than 50% of Canadians said we should halt all immigration for a while, to give the mass of newcomers we have now time to integrate into Canada. It has nothing to do with racism. It has to do with wanting to preserve social cohesion.

No Arab culture is very different with Canada's but as I said by taking 25000 we do our share.

Immigration should slow down not stopped. In the 80's I believe it was less than 100,000 a year and I think 150,000 is a good number, The point system should be applied and may be adaptability should get much more points so that only those already adopted to this culture would be admitted. This by itself may mean more so from Europe and far less from Arab regions but there are also many progressive people in non--arab muslim countries to which we should not entirely shut the door. I love our (especially Montreal's) multi-cultural society and I don't wish to lose that by just taking Europeans. Not to mention it would make Canada same level as Rhodesia and South Africa used to be and none of us want that.

Edited January 3, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

The evidence says you're wrong. Most of the Toronto 19 were the second generation. The faith liberals have that the generation born in Canada will grow up being just like everyone else here is quaint, and completely ignores the place religion places in ones cultural value set. Because progressives don't believe in religion, and don't take it seriously, they simply cannot comprehend how people born in Canada, yet raised with an extremely conservative, even rigid and extremist religious beliefs (by our standards) wouldn't simply ignore them the way progressives ignore whatever religion they were born to.

I don't believe this is correct. Where did that evidence come from??. The problem is that the extremists come to the news. SO you hear hundreds of second generation extremists gather in a mosque chanting anti-west slogans and this comes in the news or a few second generation extremists attack a western target and it comes to the news but the thousands or tens of thousands or muslim immigrants who go by their business every day and are doctors and engineers and contributors to our society or their youth in the bars drinking alcohol or picking girls never come to the news because they don't make news. Unfortunately news is almost always about a tragedy and bad events rather than normal behaviour.

Edited January 3, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[eyeball]

Are you proposing we bring millions of Arabs over here, then? If we did, then in all likelihood the problems of religious extremism in the middle east would appear here in Canada, as well.

There was a survey taken a few years back, that I recall, where more than 50% of Canadians said we should halt all immigration for a while, to give the mass of newcomers we have now time to integrate into Canada. It has nothing to do with racism. It has to do with wanting to preserve social cohesion.

I'm sure there are surveys where the vast majority of Canadians have also said we need to sustain economic growth and maintain critically important social systems i.e. health and pension etc. According to experts this means we need a steady rate of population growth and they recommend around a half a million immigrants per year until the end of the century if we expect to achieve that.

The evidence and advice against immigration is based on a miniscule number of expert opinions in the face of overwhelming expert opinion that we need immigration and a lot more of it.

[jacee]

The evidence says you're wrong. Most of the Toronto 19 were the second generation. The faith liberals have that the generation born in Canada will grow up being just like everyone else here is quaint, and completely ignores the place religion places in ones cultural value set.

The majority are comfortably Canadian. A small minority are distressed or unstable in some way and may latch onto militant jihad.

Most won't.

.

[WestCanMan]

As to security, If Islam was indeed a religion of violence and terror the we non-Muslims will not be around for very long. We have done OK for a very, very long time.

You remember they held spain for hundreds of years and they were attacking Greece non-stop until the crusades started right? They didn't just stop because they became nice all of a sudden.

We are free from Islam because so many people fought in the crusades, not because of their kindness.

[WestCanMan]

Also with regard to your other post I think that Jews and Arabs are of same genetic stock not Jews and Muslims.

I meant Jews and Muslims, historically. They both started out on the same spot on the face of the planet.

Of course since they are both just religions any race can be associated with either one, but their founders were the same.

[CITIZEN_2015]

The majority are comfortably Canadian. A small minority are distressed or unstable in some way and may latch onto militant jihad.

Most won't.

.

This is true about any race or religion that a small minority are insane or unstable. There has been cases when an insane individual hears God's voices to kill too. The thing is that random killing gets a much wider coverage and terrorists do that. Last year an idiot murdered three innocent women in Ottawa valley area and I rarely hear much about it as they knew each other and the mad guy targeted them. It was a one or two day news locally but I don't think it made a lot of national news even but last year also one Canadian soldier murdered by a Caucasian Canadian born (not a muslim immigrant) muslim convert and it was in the news locally, nationally and internationally and discussion forums for weeks and months likely why muslims are perceived to be committing more acts of murders. Both cases of course very tragic but I see the former event three times more tragic as three innocent defenseless women got murdered in the hands of a very evil man. I am sure the latter received much more coverage worldwide.

Edited January 4, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

I meant Jews and Muslims, historically. They both started out on the same spot on the face of the planet.

Of course since they are both just religions any race can be associated with either one, but their founders were the same.

Well Christianity also started on the same spot.

[WestCanMan]

The evidence says you're wrong. Most of the Toronto 19 were the second generation. The faith liberals have that the generation born in Canada will grow up being just like everyone else here is quaint, and completely ignores the place religion places in ones cultural value set. Because progressives don't believe in religion, and don't take it seriously, they simply cannot comprehend how people born in Canada, yet raised with an extremely conservative, even rigid and extremist religious beliefs (by our standards) wouldn't simply ignore them the way progressives ignore whatever religion they were born to.

There are also schools all over the country that teach in foreign languages, complete with culture and religion from the old countries. There is an Iqra school for elementary children not far from where I used to play baseball.

The jesuits would say "Give us a child until he is 6 and he will be ours for life". Kids can easily grow up in this country and be completely devoid of any Canadian culture, customs and ideals.

[WestCanMan]

It's generally correct too. Not every white boy grows up to be a saint.

How does "not being a saint" equate to "hell bent on murdering innocent people"? Is stealing a candy bar the same as beheading non-combatants or shooting high-powered assault rifles into innocent crowds of people?

I think most non-saints from here are more into candy bar theft than mass murder. I don't recall the last mass murder by a Canadian youth. Ecole Polytechnic I guess. That was a lone loser though, not a group. You have to have a large crowd of losers to draw from to form a whole gang intent on blowing people up.

[WestCanMan]

Well Christianity also started on the same spot.

Yup, it grew more peacefully, and spread further tho.

Edited January 4, 2016 by WestCanMan

[WestCanMan]

The majority are comfortably Canadian. A small minority are distressed or unstable in some way and may latch onto militant jihad.

Most won't.

.

So what's an acceptable number of terrorists from 35,000 immigrants then jacee? lmao

[CITIZEN_2015]

Yup, it grew more peacefully, and spread further tho.

Christianity is 600 years older than Islam. Do you remember Christianity 600 years ago? Was it peaceful? But yes thanks to Roman empire it spread further.

[WestCanMan]

I'm sure there are surveys where the vast majority of Canadians have also said we need to sustain economic growth and maintain critically important social systems i.e. health and pension etc. According to experts this means we need a steady rate of population growth and they recommend around a half a million immigrants per year until the end of the century if we expect to achieve that.

The evidence and advice against immigration is based on a miniscule number of expert opinions in the face of overwhelming expert opinion that we need immigration and a lot more of it.

When you need plants in your yard do you just let the seeds blow in from the cute yellow flowers in your neighbours yard or do you go out and get some seeds from a nursery? We don't just need immigrants, we need people who stand a good chance of becoming good citizens. We could also spend more money on our own youth to help them become model citizens.

[WestCanMan]

Christianity is 600 years older than Islam. Do you remember Christianity 600 years ago? Was it peaceful? But yes thanks to Roman empire it spread further.

The age of the religion has nothing to do with how peaceful it is, and Jesus wasn't exactly worshipped by Romans lol.

[Smallc]

How does "not being a saint" equate to "hell bent on murdering innocent people"?

When did we start being so literal?

[WestCanMan]

When did we start being so literal?

Don't you think your comment was just a little broad, to equate troubled teens here with mass murderers? Trudeau dropped out of college without a degree, was he just about to start beheading people before he got his first job at Superstore?

[Smallc]

Don't you think your comment was just a little broad, to equate troubled teens here with mass murderers?

What I was saying is that not only muslims become mass murderers (or in the case of the Toronto 18, potential mass murderers).

[jacee]

So what's an acceptable number of terrorists from 35,000 immigrants then jacee? lmao

No amount of terrorists is acceptable.

No amount of violent criminals of any kind is acceptable.

But they happen anyway, with or without a mass of refugees arriving.

A certain number of unstable disaffected people will do violence, with or without attaching themselves to an ideology.

It's no different in any society, and does not warrant panic and discrimination against Muslims enmasse, especially against refugees who are fleeing the violence.

.

[DogOnPorch]

What I was saying is that not only muslims become mass murderers (or in the case of the Toronto 18, potential mass murderers).

Which other group is actively pursuing mass murder? Give recent examples.

[CITIZEN_2015]

The age of the religion has nothing to do with how peaceful it is, and Jesus wasn't exactly worshipped by Romans lol.

Sure it does. It had more time to evolve and moderate. Islam in 600 years from now will be much more moderate too. Romans became Christians at the end and helped to spread it.

Edited January 4, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

The majority are comfortably Canadian. A small minority are distressed or unstable in some way and may latch onto militant jihad.

Most won't.

Probably true. But you're again ignoring the impact on our society of an expanding religious minority with extremely harsh and conservative social views which derive from their religion - and not from an extreme reading of their religion, either, but from the mainstream branch. This religion has doubled in size every ten years for the last forty years and with the impact of immigration it continues to grow in size and influence. Its twice the size of the Jewish community now, and will be larger than the aboriginal population within five years. Nor is there any evidence that those born in Canada have different social views. In fact, many are MORE religious than their immigrant parents.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Argus