Islamophobia in Canada

[eyeball]

Everyone can agree what evil religions are capable of bringing out in people.

Not me. As I said to DOP, religions are just things and it's what people do with them that counts and I think that what people don't do with their own minds matters even more. By not guarding against and by indulging in their own peccadilloes of objectivity people often have a deluded view of reality that goes to the very core of their own being.

You underscore what I'm trying to get at here when you said;

Question - Why did you shoot that Protestant?

Answer - Because I'm a Catholic.

It's really only up to the person doing the interpreting.

If they say they did it because of their religion, then they did.

Islamophobia to me just goes to show other things than just religion or lack thereof are at work on people's minds. A fear of something is just as strong as a love for it often resulting with objectivity and reason along with it going out the window.

Edited February 6, 2016 by eyeball

[Argus]

There are extreme Muslim imams and then there are extreme Christian pastors. They both have supporters, but of course, in reality, they don't reflect the thoughts and ideas of the majority.

The problem is you have no evidence to support that statement. Extreme Muslim imams don't reflect the thoughts and ideas of the majority? How do you define extreme? Are you saying the majority of Muslims believe in gender equality and gay rights? Are you saying few Muslims in the world support execution or jail for blasphemers, adulterers and apostates? Because the surveys say otherwise.

[DogOnPorch]

Nobody is denying that the Quran contains violent passages. What I am saying is that it ALSO contains peaceful passages. Nobody has said that you are using an ISIS linked site. What I am saying is that you and ISIS BOTH choose the violent passages to define what the Quran's main message is, while other people choose the peaceful passages to define what the Quran's main messages is.

What is the Quran's main message?

[Guest]

Judging by news reports, Islamic extremists are definitely the most active. But also, I've found out that all over the world there are Christian extremists who behave similarly as does ISIS and similar, but we don't hear about them because they're targetting people who aren't white/don't live in Western countries. Even in the States, terror activity by non-Islamists is a lot more common than Islamic terrorism, but again, the perception is very different thanks to what the news media focuses on. So, while I can't agree with you wholeheartedly, I can't disagree either.

There is no doubt that other religions have their issues. Christianity in Africa, for instance. I know there are countries where homosexuality is against the law and in some cases, I believe the death penalty is on the books. In Islam, I think the number of countries that can impose the death penalty for homosexuality is in the double figures.

I don't know of a Christian country where Blasphemy and Apostasy are punishable by death. But then, I haven't looked. I'm sure if it became an issue, we'd hear about it.

The killing of cartoonists, movie directors, and bloggers seems to be a lot more prevalent in Islam than in other religions.

For some reason we are incapable, as a society, of saying "Look! This is the way the world is right now!"

I was reading this morning in the Guardian about a problem in the left wing party in the UK. Apparently male Labour councillors who are Muslim do their best to make sure female Muslims don't get elected to council. This is in the Liberal west, and part of one of the most left wing parties in Europe. (Okay, it's just one newspaper article, but it speaks to the unwillingness of the left to acknowledge Islamic biases, even when comparatively benign, that are incompatible with the accepted practices of the country in which they live)

[DogOnPorch]

Judging by news reports, Islamic extremists are definitely the most active. But also, I've found out that all over the world there are Christian extremists who behave similarly as does ISIS and similar, but we don't hear about them because they're targetting people who aren't white/don't live in Western countries. Even in the States, terror activity by non-Islamists is a lot more common than Islamic terrorism, but again, the perception is very different thanks to what the news media focuses on. So, while I can't agree with you wholeheartedly, I can't disagree either.

Provide a few examples that we can all mull over.

[Guest]

Not me. As I said to DOP, religions are just things and it's what people do with them that counts and I think that what people don't do with their own minds matters even more. By not guarding against and by indulging in their own peccadilloes of objectivity people often have a deluded view of reality that goes to the very core of their own being.

You underscore what I'm trying to get at here when you said;

Islamophobia to me just goes to show other things than just religion or lack thereof are at work on people's minds. A fear of something is just as strong as a love for it often resulting with objectivity and reason along with it going out the window.

I think this is just sophistry.

I see no difference between

...what evil religions are capable of bringing out in people.

And

...religions are just things and it's what people do with them that counts

Edit> Just to be clear, my statement is referring to the evil that religions are cabable of bringing out in people. I'm not referring to "evil religions".

Edited February 6, 2016 by bcsapper

[DogOnPorch]

Islam outlives its practitioners giving it a 'life' of its own...just like any ideology. Marx is dead in the ground...

[Shady]

The problem is you have no evidence to support that statement. Extreme Muslim imams don't reflect the thoughts and ideas of the majority? How do you define extreme? Are you saying the majority of Muslims believe in gender equality and gay rights? Are you saying few Muslims in the world support execution or jail for blasphemers, adulterers and apostates? Because the surveys say otherwise.

Exactly. It's tantamount to science denial.

[dialamah]

There is no doubt that other religions have their issues. Christianity in Africa, for instance. I know there are countries where homosexuality is against the law and in some cases, I believe the death penalty is on the books. In Islam, I think the number of countries that can impose the death penalty for homosexuality is in the double figures.

I don't know of a Christian country where Blasphemy and Apostasy are punishable by death. But then, I haven't looked. I'm sure if it became an issue, we'd hear about it.

The killing of cartoonists, movie directors, and bloggers seems to be a lot more prevalent in Islam than in other religions.

For some reason we are incapable, as a society, of saying "Look! This is the way the world is right now!"

I was reading this morning in the Guardian about a problem in the left wing party in the UK. Apparently male Labour councillors who are Muslim do their best to make sure female Muslims don't get elected to council. This is in the Liberal west, and part of one of the most left wing parties in Europe. (Okay, it's just one newspaper article, but it speaks to the unwillingness of the left to acknowledge Islamic biases, even when comparatively benign, that are incompatible with the accepted practices of the country in which they live)

Personally, I think the worldwide problem is conservatism more than religion. Male councillors trying to keep females from being elected, males creating laws making abortion for women increasingly difficult in the States, people complaining because Trudeau (the one currently in power, not the dead one for those who are easily confused) ensured his cabinet consisted of equal numbers of men and women.

As a culture, the Middle East is very conservative regardless of whether one is Christian or Muslim. or maybe even Jewish. There are progressive Christians and Muslims in those regions, but they are relatively few in number compared to conservatives. In the West, it's the opposite. As someone opined earlier in this discussion, cultures change slowly. We're not 'better' or 'more civilized' than the ME, we're just farther along the progressive path that embraces equality and humanity over protectionism and exclusion.

You've provided examples of crimes of Islamists, and I'm not ignoring that in order to dismiss it or minimize it. I agree there is a problem in terms of terrorism that originates in certain regions of the world, but putting it on a 'religion' and ignoring everything else does nothing to solve that problem. Discussion of what other elements lead to terrorism, including the justification used by the terrorists themselves, seems to me to be a better discussion than trying to prove or disprove Islam or even the Quran and/or Hadiths as being the reason.

[DogOnPorch]

Dialamah, can you tell me (and the board) what the 'main message' of Islam' is? My (old) understanding is that it is:

There is but one God...Allah...and Mohammad is his Messenger.

What is the Quran's real message? If it is peace and such, can you back it up? That would be great as I...at least according to you and a few cohorts...am not getting the real message of Islam.

[dialamah]

Dialamah, can you tell me (and the board) what the 'main message' of Islam' is? My (old) understanding is that it is:

There is but one God...Allah...and Mohammad is his Messenger.

What is the Quran's real message? If it is peace and such, can you back it up? That would be great as I...at least according to you and a few cohorts...am not getting the real message of Islam.

I have already, in this thread and for you, demonstrated the ways in which the Quran teaches the message of peace. You ignored and dismissed that information. I'm not going to go start all that again. If you are truly curious, you can do your own research.

[Argus]

As a culture, the Middle East is very conservative regardless of whether one is Christian or Muslim. or maybe even Jewish. There are progressive Christians and Muslims in those regions, but they are relatively few in number compared to conservatives. In the West, it's the opposite. As someone opined earlier in this discussion, cultures change slowly. We're not 'better' or 'more civilized' than the ME, we're just farther along the progressive path that embraces equality and humanity over protectionism and exclusion.

What you ignore is Islam's influence on those who follow it from birth to grave. A religion influences the culture just as the culture influences the religion. Yes, the ME is a conservative place, but you don't see Christian suicide bombers there, nor Jewish ones.

And how are we NOT more civilized than the ME if we're further along a path? By definition that means they are backward.

You also (again) ignore the fact that Islam is spread around the world, and the ME is hardly the only place where Muslim societies have extreme social views (which coincidentally seem to be the same social views as are found in Islam).

[DogOnPorch]

I have already, in this thread and for you, demonstrated the ways in which the Quran teaches the message of peace. You ignored and dismissed that information. I'm not going to go start all that again. If you are truly curious, you can do your own research.

Not really...I'm asking you outright: "What is Islam's main message". You brought it up and didn't elaborate what that main message was. Can you repeat it if I missed it earlier? Thanks.

[dialamah]

Not really...I'm asking you outright: "What is Islam's main message". You brought it up and didn't elaborate what that main message was. Can you repeat it if I missed it earlier? Thanks.

As far as I am concerned, the main message of Islam is peace. The people who claim otherwise are wrong and using the Quran to justify terrorism is wrong. You may decide for yourself what you think the main message of the Quran is.

[On Guard for Thee]

You haven't read the Quran. I have.

I believe you said you don't read or speak Arabic, therefore you have read someones interpretation of the Quran.

[Argus]

As far as I am concerned, the main message of Islam is peace.

Would you care to explain why there has been no peace in the Muslim world in over a thousand years? Why, in fact, Muslims have spent most of their history openly attacking their neighbours and spreading 'Allah' by the sword until their ability to do so disappeared?

[DogOnPorch]

I believe you said you don't read or speak Arabic, therefore you have read someones interpretation of the Quran.

Modern Arabic and the Arabic the Quran was written-in are two different things...as I've already mentioned and you ignored. Iranians don't speak modern Arabic. Are they misunderstanding the Quran? How about Indonesians?

[Argus]

I believe you said you don't read or speak Arabic, therefore you have read someones interpretation of the Quran.

Yes, that is the position of Muslim extremists. Only Arabic is the true language of God, and all other translations are without substance.

And of course, the Arab world, using the 'true' word of Allah has engaged in pacifism and peace for well over a thousand years, and sought nothing but friendly relations with their neighbours, especially those who were not Muslim.

[DogOnPorch]

As far as I am concerned, the main message of Islam is peace. The people who claim otherwise are wrong and using the Quran to justify terrorism is wrong. You may decide for yourself what you think the main message of the Quran is.

That's great that it is a message of peace. Can you point it out to me? Ask your sister for help.

[On Guard for Thee]

Yes, that is the position of Muslim extremists. Only Arabic is the true language of God, and all other translations are without substance.

And of course, the Arab world, using the 'true' word of Allah has engaged in pacifism and peace for well over a thousand years, and sought nothing but friendly relations with their neighbours, especially those who were not Muslim.

Apparently you rely on the same/similar interpretation of the Quran as does DoP.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, that is the position of Muslim extremists. Only Arabic is the true language of God, and all other translations are without substance.

And of course, the Arab world, using the 'true' word of Allah has engaged in pacifism and peace for well over a thousand years, and sought nothing but friendly relations with their neighbours, especially those who were not Muslim.

Correct...this is a Wahhabi fascist supremacist sort of thing.

The Quran was copied and translated from early times....first by this fellow into Medieval Pharisee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_the_Persian

[dialamah]

Would you care to explain why there has been no peace in the Muslim world in over a thousand years? Why, in fact, Muslims have spent most of their history openly attacking their neighbours and spreading 'Allah' by the sword until their ability to do so disappeared?

*shrugs* I've already responded to that claim as well, and again - you ignored and dismissed it as irrelevant.

[cybercoma]

Exactly. It's tantamount to science denial.

So you suddenly think science denial is a bad thing., I wasn't aware of your about face on abortion and climate change discussions.

[Shady]

So you suddenly think science denial is a bad thing., I wasn't aware of your about face on abortion and climate change discussions.

It's the pro-choice that deny science as well. You and your ilk like to pick n choose when you accept science and when you don't. GMFs, abortion, and scientific polls are all instances of your hypocrisy.

[Argus]

*shrugs* I've already responded to that claim as well, and again - you ignored and dismissed it as irrelevant.

Perhaps you can point out to me which post you responded in.