Long Form Census

[Big Guy]

Those who do not complete the LFC will end up in the same jail cell as those folks who tear the label off mattresses and pillows.

[angrypenguin]

Those who do not complete the LFC will end up in the same jail cell as those folks who tear the label off mattresses and pillows.

As they should.

[GostHacked]

You think with all the technology the government uses to spy on us they would already know what would go in a long form census.

[ToadBrother]

You think with all the technology the government uses to spy on us they would already know what would go in a long form census.

Probably not, unless you think they send spybots in to find out how many bathrooms you have.

[GostHacked]

Probably not, unless you think they send spybots in to find out how many bathrooms you have.

I can't build another one without a permit. So yes they do know.

[ReeferMadness]

I can't build another one without a permit.

Funny cuz everyone I know does.

[Argus]

There are reasonable infringements upon liberty. The long form census, with the critical demographic information it produces, is a reasonable, and very small infringement.

But wait, what? This is just pseudoscience. You said so yourself! Statistics are useless and can't be relied on for anything!

[ToadBrother]

But wait, what? This is just pseudoscience. You said so yourself! Statistics are useless and can't be relied on for anything!

What can't be relied on is your tendency to quote statistics you think support your view, and reject statistics that don't.

1.6 vs 2.1, Argus. What's your solution?

[jacee]

Geez, statisticians saying their job is useful.

It's government services at all levels, federal, provincial, municipal that are having difficulty projecting, planning, targetting services accurately without detailed census data.

One small example: A school principal can make a solid case for prioritizing local capital spending for a new gym, with data showing that most of his students live in high rise apts.

The long form census facilitates evidence-based decision-making.

Harper didn't want anybody using fact-based info that interfered with his blockheaded dogma and pursuit of 'the rapture'.

Now we're back to sensible and intelligent decision making.

.

[ToadBrother]

It's government services at all levels, federal, provincial, municipal that are having difficulty projecting, planning, targetting services accurately without detailed census data.

One small example: A school principal can make a solid case for prioritizing local capital spending for a new gym, with data showing that most of his students live in high rise apts.

The long form census facilitates evidence-based decision-making.

Harper didn't want anybody using fact-based info that interfered with his blockheaded dogma and pursuit of 'the rapture'.

Now we're back to sensible and intelligent decision making.

.

I think it's more to the point that the Tories were big on populist gestures, whether those gestures made any sense, or, in the case of Senate reform, whether or not it was even constitutional. It didn't help that they clearly disliked scientists.

[jacee]

Agreed, though I think it was facts they disliked.

[segnosaur]

It's government services at all levels, federal, provincial, municipal that are having difficulty projecting, planning, targetting services accurately without detailed census data.

One small example: A school principal can make a solid case for prioritizing local capital spending for a new gym, with data showing that most of his students live in high rise apts.

Just out of curiosity... why would the long-form census be necessary for that?

The short form census (one that was distributed to every household) had a question asking for the number of residents of a house and their ages. That is more than enough to determine population density and the expected number of school-age children in a particular geographic area.

Not to mention the fact that there are other sources of information that would be almost as useful... zoning bylaws/building permits tell planners where the apartment buildings are, as opposed to low-density suburbs. Historic enrollment trends should give an idea if demand for school infrastructure is increasing. (And unlike a long-form census, there is no multi-year lag waiting for the data to be collected, analyzed and distributed.)

The long form census facilitates evidence-based decision-making.

How people imagine decisions are made:

- A decision maker (politician/businessman/etc.) decides "We must do something" (to help the public/increase profits/etc.)

- Days/Weeks are spent analyzing data to decide the best course of action

- After much consultation, a plan of action is created

- Everyone works hard to ensure that plan is put into effect

- Nirvana ensues. Everyone becomes rich and happy

How decisions are actually made:

- A decision maker makes a statement "we must do something" (whether or not that "something" actually needs to be done)

- Days/Weeks are spent analyzing data

- Decision maker then picks up a hooker, gets drunk, does some cocaine and ends up making a decision that is self serving

- Attempts are made to put a plan into effect, but because most people are incompetent or working at cross purposes the plan is executed poorly

- It all becomes moot as the next major event (terrorist threat/economic meltdown/invasion of the mole people) makes whatever decision no better than had the decision been made by a blindfolded monkey throwing darts at a dart board.

I can imagine some politician or civil servant, spending hours upon hours looking at statistics data, thinking they are doing the best possible job, when in reality there are so many factors and variables that impact any plans that it is completely irrelevant if the statistics data is inaccurate.

[ToadBrother]

Just out of curiosity... why would the long-form census be necessary for that?

Then you go ask the Stats Can statisticians why it's important, because they disagree with you that the information is readily available in other ways. So I can either accept that you have some special knowledge, or that they do. If you're an authority on statistics, then by all means state that, otherwise, I'm going to go with what they say because they seem to think the long form census is critical.

[jacee]

Just out of curiosity... why would the long-form census be necessary for that?

Because it contains the necessary data.

The short form census (one that was distributed to every household) had a question asking for the number of residents of a house and their ages. That is more than enough to determine population density and the expected number of school-age children in a particular geographic area.

That wasn't the point. See my example above again.

Not to mention the fact that there are other sources of information that would be almost as useful... zoning bylaws/building permits tell planners where the apartment buildings are, as opposed to low-density suburbs.

Who lives in the apt buildings is the issue in the example above.

Yes the city crunches it's data and combines it with census data and makes that available for social, health and educational planning too.

Historic enrollment trends should give an idea if demand for school infrastructure is increasing.

Sure. But not how to prioritize with limited budgets.

(And unlike a long-form census, there is no multi-year lag waiting for the data to be collected, analyzed and distributed.)

The lag isn't as long as you think.

How people imagine decisions are made:

- A decision maker (politician/businessman/etc.) decides "We must do something" (to help the public/increase profits/etc.)

- Days/Weeks are spent analyzing data to decide the best course of action

- After much consultation, a plan of action is created

- Everyone works hard to ensure that plan is put into effect

- Nirvana ensues. Everyone becomes rich and happy

How decisions are actually made:

- A decision maker makes a statement "we must do something" (whether or not that "something" actually needs to be done)

- Days/Weeks are spent analyzing data

- Decision maker then picks up a hooker, gets drunk, does some cocaine and ends up making a decision that is self serving

- Attempts are made to put a plan into effect, but because most people are incompetent or working at cross purposes the plan is executed poorly

- It all becomes moot as the next major event (terrorist threat/economic meltdown/invasion of the mole people) makes whatever decision no better than had the decision been made by a blindfolded monkey throwing darts at a dart board.

Putting data into the hands of service providers allows them to improve their submissions to decision-makers, improve the quality of decisions.

I can imagine some politician or civil servant, spending hours upon hours looking at statistics data, thinking they are doing the best possible job, when in reality there are so many factors and variables that impact any plans that it is completely irrelevant if the statistics data is inaccurate.

Speculation. And not true.

Stats Can is respected worldwide for the quality of its work.

Or was until Harper messed with it.

His intention was, of course, to make it impossible for social planners to demonstrate needs accurately, so he could make whatever decisions pleased his financial backers.

.

Edited November 12, 2015 by jacee

[August1991]

Then you go ask the Stats Can statisticians why it's important, because they disagree with you that the information is readily available in other ways. So I can either accept that you have some special knowledge, or that they do. If you're an authority on statistics, then by all means state that, otherwise, I'm going to go with what they say because they seem to think the long form census is critical.

It's the accuracy of the data that is at issue. Nowadays, people don't report the truth - for a variety of reasons.

And bureaurcrats are notoriously bad at figuring out new stuff.

[ToadBrother]

It's the accuracy of the data that is at issue. Nowadays, people don't report the truth - for a variety of reasons.

And bureaurcrats are notoriously bad at figuring out new stuff.

Do you have a citation to demonstrate this lack of veracity in the long form census?

[jacee]

No. It's just a smear job.

The ones who complained were rich Conservatives, Harper backers. That small hardcore group may be the most likely to lie on their census form ... and perhaps taxes too. Some scrutiny may be warranted, but the data and error margins are likely robust enough for a few liars here and there.

Anyone who says other people lie is likely one who will lie, and should be checked.

[Guest]

Data and evidence is a bad thing for those whose ideology doesn't conform with reality. There is a reason the Harper government ended the long form census, stopped many environmental tests, muzzled scientists, erased research, etc.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Guest

[drummindiver]

Those who do not complete the LFC will end up in the same jail cell as those folks who tear the label off mattresses and pillows.

Those who fear Bill C51 are planning jihad or distributing child porn on line.

With the Liberals in charge, they won't end up in jail.

[Big Guy]

Those who fear Bill C51 are planning jihad or distributing child porn on line.

With the Liberals in charge, they won't end up in jail.

So your point is that this new Liberal government will ignore those who are planning jihad in Canada and that will protect those distributing child porn on line. You also believe that those Canadians who are afraid of bill c-51 support jihad in Canada and also support child porn on line?

This is your serious adult belief after researching the topic?

[drummindiver]

So your point is that this new Liberal government will ignore those who are planning jihad in Canada and that will protect those distributing child porn on line. You also believe that those Canadians who are afraid of bill c-51 support jihad in Canada and also support child porn on line?

This is your serious adult belief after researching the topic?

Really?

Sorry, Big Guy. /snarc. Ok?

And how did you convolute what I said to what you said?

[drummindiver]

So your point is that this new Liberal government will ignore those who are planning jihad in Canada and that will protect those distributing child porn on line. You also believe that those Canadians who are afraid of bill c-51 support jihad in Canada and also support child porn on line?

This is your serious adult belief after researching the topic?

I'm stating that you are not using your critical thinking cap when you state we should not be afraid of going to jail for not filling out LFC, yet at the same time think the government is out to get you with C51.

[Big Guy]

I'm stating that you are not using your critical thinking cap when you state we should not be afraid of going to jail for not filling out LFC, yet at the same time think the government is out to get you with C51.

OKAY. So I'll put on my thinking cap. The chances of you going to jail for not filling out LFC is much less than getting hit by lightening.

Personally, I have no problem with Bill C-51 except for the lack of civilian oversight.

​​I feel the kind of powers given to government employees require very powerful civilian oversight.

Thanks for asking.

[Queenmandy85]

I'm stating that you are not using your critical thinking cap when you state we should not be afraid of going to jail for not filling out LFC, yet at the same time think the government is out to get you with C51.

But why would you not fill out the Long Form Census form?

[SpankyMcFarland]

I am willing to trust a committee of MPs to oversee the activities of our security services and put their partisan biases aside while doing so. They, in turn, need to be trusted by the watchers to get access to detailed information on what is really going on. Otherwise, we will be up with a state within a state that is no longer answerable to the elected representatives of the people.

Edited November 14, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland