Michael Hardner Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 And I gather you're pretty excited about driving around in a new Toyota drinking milkshakes. Making it about 'me' usually means we're at the twilight of the discussion. I have mostly been lamenting the lack of productive dialogue on trade deals, owing to the lack of a public space to have knowledgeable discussions. I do like milkshakes, but I drive domestic vehicles. Also, I'm learning towards being against the deal but that won't make sense to the binary thinkers among us. Yes yes, we're all familiar with basic economic principles like "tariffs bad, trade good!" and "competition means lower prices!" Oh, no. No, we're not. We're not. But the TPP is not just about decreasing barriers to trade and creating more competition. The new IP rules will have the opposite effect... it'll create more barriers and reduce the amount of competition. Yes, noted. But every time somebody has made specific criticisms of the TPP, you've ducked out and gone back to discussing these junior high economics principles with somebody else. -k I think I have done so because somebody has replied to a point I have made, and has reiterated a trope that needs to be called out. I think TimG posted Jim Ballsillie's take on the patent provisions, and that's where I let my opinion on TPP show. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
angrypenguin Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 What belief is behind your decision to drive domestic vehicles? I do like milkshakes, but I drive domestic vehicles. Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 What belief is behind your decision to drive domestic vehicles? Further to the point of TPP, there are no major domestic car makes from Canada...they are foreign. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
angrypenguin Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 Further to the point of TPP, there are no major domestic car makes from Canada...they are foreign. I was hoping for a reply before replying exactly with the comments you just made Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Michael Hardner Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 What belief is behind your decision to drive domestic vehicles? I had a discussion with a mechanical engineer friend of mine who indicated that the depreciation on older domestics is tiny, and that imports have a 'prestige' value that doesn't warrant their higher prices. Granted, it was high level and we didn't talk about specific models but it was interesting enough to me. This guy used to take the train when going to a different city because he would calculate depreciation costs on his vehicle. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
angrypenguin Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 I had a discussion with a mechanical engineer friend of mine who indicated that the depreciation on older domestics is tiny, and that imports have a 'prestige' value that doesn't warrant their higher prices. Granted, it was high level and we didn't talk about specific models but it was interesting enough to me. This guy used to take the train when going to a different city because he would calculate depreciation costs on his vehicle. Interesting. Perhaps I am reading your post wrongly, and if so, I apologize, but I would disagree with your friend. Take a look here: http://www.canadianblackbook.com/cbb-awards.html Depreciation is far less for imports. Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Michael Hardner Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 Michigan is domestic to me. Why shouldn't it be ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 Interesting. Perhaps I am reading your post wrongly, and if so, I apologize, but I would disagree with your friend. Take a look here: http://www.canadianblackbook.com/cbb-awards.html Depreciation is far less for imports. Couldn't find an 'about' section. I think that award is 'relative' depreciation. My cars depreciate about $1K a year. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
angrypenguin Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 Michigan is domestic to me. Why shouldn't it be ? Because it's not made in Canada and things like their corporate taxes are not collected by our government. It's not domestic at all. Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
angrypenguin Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 Couldn't find an 'about' section. I think that award is 'relative' depreciation. My cars depreciate about $1K a year. I was looking at foreign/domestic based on brand. I don't know how depreciation affects you but I read it as "domestic cars depreciate less"....which isn't quite true because the majority of the cars' brands in the black book were foreign (jap/european) Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Michael Hardner Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 I was looking at foreign/domestic based on brand. I don't know how depreciation affects you but I read it as "domestic cars depreciate less"....which isn't quite true because the majority of the cars' brands in the black book were foreign (jap/european) Right, but they're buying new. I buy old. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Wilber Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 What is a "domestic" vehicle? I have a North American brand truck that was assembled in Mexico. They dd a good job to. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
angrypenguin Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 Right, but they're buying new. I buy old. But... If they hold their value the best upon resell, and you buy an old say...Subaru, then when you go and sell it, won't it still have the best resell value? Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
ReeferMadness Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 More opportunities for exports, cheaper dairy, cheaper automobiles. Those are some of the benefits that Stephen Harper touted. And are these advantages real or theoretical? After our free trade agreement with Korea, imports went up and exports actually went down. After a single case of BSE was found, Korea refused to import our beef. Yay, free trade. And the way the dollar is headed, those cheaper cars won't be cheaper at all, even after we've exported the jobs. No. It's ECONOMICS. The autoworkers are good at finding economists who will highlight the downsides of the TPP and highlighting those, but trade deals are agreed to be good for economics by an overwhelming majority of economists.Good for economics. But not necessarily good for people. Economists are good at making the GDP go up but an increased GDP isn't necessarily good for all the people or even a majority of the people. What about if we stop obsessing over what's good for the economy and started paying attention to what is good for people. Then why don't we design a forum where the good things about trade are discussed on a level field with the downsides ? Given the fact that many (including you, apparently) are unaware about the positives of trade, would you really expect governments to treat citizens like sentient adults and publish the details ?Every time someone starts to lecture me about the "good things about trade", I know I'm in for a rehash of Economics 101 (again). Spare me. Based on what you've just said, it doesn't appear that you understand economics any better than I do. And based on the lack of specifics coming from anyone on this wretched deal, I'm wondering whether there are very many people at all who understand it well. Rather than being cheerleaders, I would like the government to conduct and publish a cogent analysis of the deal and give a realistic assessment of the winners and the losers. I expect that, as with most of the globalization deals, it's mostly a case of the rich winning while the middle class loses. And that's our "betters" like Mr Harper feed us vague promises; which you apparently accept holus bolus. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 I'd be more worried about not being part of the TPP right now. Yup. Let's sign on because it's disaster if we don't. It can't be sold on its merits so it will be sold on the basis of fear. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Smallc Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 What is a "domestic" vehicle? I have a North American brand truck that was assembled in Mexico. They dd a good job to. Last I checked Mexico was part of North America. Canada has no domestic brands anyway. Quote
Wilber Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 Last I checked Mexico was part of North America. Canada has no domestic brands anyway. That was my point. What exactly is a domestic car? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
ReeferMadness Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) Last I checked Mexico was part of North America. Canada has no domestic brands anyway. There's no such thing as "domestic" anything anymore. Every country has its specialization in their service to economics. Countries that haven't yet been completely exploited supply raw materials. Countries with educated people do design. Countries with desperate people (and little in the way of labor/environmental standards) do the manufacturing. Countries with money do the merchandising. And countries with no corporate taxes launder the profits. All in the service of the economy. Keep the hamster wheel rolling. Ah, the golden age of specialization. Edited November 11, 2015 by ReeferMadness Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Michael Hardner Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 But... If they hold their value the best upon resell, and you buy an old say...Subaru, then when you go and sell it, won't it still have the best resell value? Assuming you buy a new car, then yes. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Wilber Posted November 11, 2015 Report Posted November 11, 2015 If you buy an old car that has had high depreciation when new, you have less to lose if you buy it when it is older because you paid less for it in the first place. If you pay half as much for one old car, it can't depreciate faster than another old car which is worth twice as much. If your engineer friend is saying buy them cheap and drive them into the ground, that doesn't involve depreciation. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted November 13, 2015 Report Posted November 13, 2015 I have mostly been lamenting the lack of productive dialogue on trade deals, owing to the lack of a public space to have knowledgeable discussions. I think that probably owes more to the lack of public participation in exclusive secret trade deal negotiations, especially this one. Anyway, you were talking about public spaces...you mean like a public domain or more like a park in a city? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Michael Hardner Posted November 13, 2015 Report Posted November 13, 2015 A public domain Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
poochy Posted November 13, 2015 Report Posted November 13, 2015 Yup. Let's sign on because it's disaster if we don't. It can't be sold on its merits so it will be sold on the basis of fear. Yea, i mean, it's almost like it's impossible that not being part of it might be worse than signing on to it. Quote
Wilber Posted November 13, 2015 Report Posted November 13, 2015 Yea, i mean, it's almost like it's impossible that not being part of it might be worse than signing on to it. So if that becomes the case, our choice will be between bad or worse. Ain't trade deals wonderful. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted November 13, 2015 Report Posted November 13, 2015 A public domain We have a space then so what's really lacking? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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