Icebound Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 These forums have a lot of "this is my money and why should I give it up in taxes". But is it really ALL "my money"? When my employer gives me that big fat cheque every month, has he paid all his bills? Has he cleaned up all the pollution that our product causes? Has he paid for the roads that take it to market? Did he pay for the lawyers that negotiated the free trade agreement that allows him to sell it to Timbuktoo? Probably not, and what he saved by not paying for that, he was able to stuff into my pay cheque. So maybe it stands to reason that a little bit of that money in my envelope has to be redirected to do those infrastructure things, and is not really "my own". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Bad analogy. You can't buy half a Porsche. You can use half the TFSA limit, or a quarter of it, or whatever amount you want. Hence why few can buy a Porsche, but anyone can use a TFSA. Bad critical thinking skills. Most people couldn't use up the $5000 TFSA limit (like the overwhelming majority). The increase, therefore, was 100% unusable. Use your brain. Try a little math. Consider how much after-tax income you need to actually be able to afford $10,000/y in your TFSA and then tell us who could make use of it, okay? Just try it. But your logic and that analogy is even more flawed; Following it, we would conclude that we should also ban the sale of Porsches, since some people can only afford a Kia. No, you're just struggling to keep up. Keep on backpeddling. You said it, not me. Back-peddle from what? From your sad attempt to assign deeper meaning to a colloquialism? Wealthiest 20%? Wealthiest 10%, 1%, 0.01? There is nothing in common between those groups. Even just the 1%....Lives are the bottom of the 1% would be unrecognizable to those at the top of the 1%. They have nothing in common. Grouping them together as a target is senseless. Not as senseless as whatever you're trying to say here. That whole statement above is literally just verbal diarrhea. 2 siblings. Reasonable neighborhood-ish. Not all night shifts, about 50/50. Otherwise yep. Mhmm. I'm sure your personal struggles were just heroic. Well I didn't grow up that way so what is your point exactly? My point was stated explicitly. I literally couldn't have made it any more clear. Read it again and get back to us. Edited October 24, 2015 by Moonbox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Bad critical thinking skills. Most people couldn't use up the $5000 TFSA limit (like the overwhelming majority). The increase, therefore, was 100% unusable. Use your brain. Try a little math. Consider how much after-tax income you need to actually be able to afford $10,000/y in your TFSA and then tell us who could make use of it, okay? Just try it. No, you're just struggling to keep up. Back-peddle from what? From your sad attempt to assign deeper meaning to a colloquialism? Not as senseless as whatever you're trying to say here. That whole statement above is literally just verbal diarrhea. Mhmm. I'm sure your personal struggles were just heroic. My point was stated explicitly. I literally couldn't have made it any more clear. Read it again and get back to us. Back when I was student when TFSAs were introduced, I was making around 40k. I maxed out my TFSA. I never drank coffee from Timmies, never ate out. I saved my money. If you choose to spend yours and then can't max out your TFSA, then that's on you. Canadians are crappy savers who love debt. That is not how I was raised and just because others don't love frugally.... Most people can max out their TFSAs, they simply choose to live a lifestyle that doesn't permit them to do that. Don't penalize me for maxing out my TFSS though. Again. Entitlement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Back when I was student when TFSAs were introduced, I was making around 40k ... Don't penalize me for maxing out my TFSS though. Again. Entitlement. The entitlement here is thinking that you deserve $10,000 of room rather than $5,500. How quickly the entitlement sets in which is exactly why Harper raised the limit in the first place. To anchor that amount in people's minds so then it's the big bad Liberals who look bad. Fortunately, no one believes your story so Canada will move on while you lament your lost limit. Edited October 24, 2015 by msj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Back when I was student when TFSAs were introduced, I was making around 40k. I maxed out my TFSA. I never drank coffee from Timmies, never ate out. I saved my money. Suuuure. What sort of student job did you have that made you $40,000/year and allowed a full course load? Care to run us a budget? Please keep in mind when you do that I spent about 5 years as a lender in a university town (the same years you'd have been in school) and saw hundreds of student budgets for education borrowing applications. Let's hope the math doesn't get in the way of your inspiring story though... Most people can max out their TFSAs, they simply choose to live a lifestyle that doesn't permit them to do that. Don't penalize me for maxing out my TFSS though. Nobody's penalizing you. They're just taking away a tax break that you never needed because your mommy and daddy looked after you while you were at school and beyond. Edited October 24, 2015 by Moonbox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Again. Entitlement. The only entitlement I see is from people who claim to be earning good money, all butt-hurt because someone else - who makes less money - is going to get a tax break too. Your own sense of entitlement simply because you 'make more money" is pretty stunning. Oh, and your whole shtick about how you won't 'donate to charity' cause of tax changes - well, if you are so dumb as to give up the tax deductions for charity to protest a tax change that actually benefits you more than it benefits someone like me - have at it. Seems like a classic "cut off your nose to spite your face" response. Edited October 24, 2015 by dialamah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Back when I was student when TFSAs were introduced, I was making around 40k. I maxed out my TFSA. I never drank coffee from Timmies, never ate out. I saved my money. If you choose to spend yours and then can't max out your TFSA, then that's on you. Canadians are crappy savers who love debt. That is not how I was raised and just because others don't love frugally.... Most people can max out their TFSAs, they simply choose to live a lifestyle that doesn't permit them to do that. Don't penalize me for maxing out my TFSS though. Again. Entitlement. Are you still going on about this? When your only counter-argument to my post was "I didn't say poor, I said middle-class". Alright, switch "poor" for "middle-class" in my now cut-and-paste points from earlier and let's see what you have to say: 1) If you take out all your money in one calendar year from a mutual fund instead of TFSA, it's more your own fault for bad investment planning than it is some socialist plan but you're welcome to find a way to blame Trudeau for for your poor planning. 2) TFSA is not a right. Nobody is taking money *away* from you and taking giving it to the poor *(middle-class)*. You may have lost a tax loop hole (one that only benefits a very small portion of poeple), but to say that it's a socialist policy is a blatant lie. Edited October 25, 2015 by BC_chick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 The entitlement here is thinking that you deserve $10,000 of room rather than $5,500. How quickly the entitlement sets in which is exactly why Harper raised the limit in the first place. To anchor that amount in people's minds so then it's the big bad Liberals who look bad. Fortunately, no one believes your story so Canada will move on while you lament your lost limit. Uhh no. I don't feel like I'm entitled to it because right up until the LPC was voted on, I WAS entitled to it as it was passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 The only entitlement I see is from people who claim to be earning good money, all butt-hurt because someone else - who makes less money - is going to get a tax break too. Your own sense of entitlement simply because you 'make more money" is pretty stunning. Oh, and your whole shtick about how you won't 'donate to charity' cause of tax changes - well, if you are so dumb as to give up the tax deductions for charity to protest a tax change that actually benefits you more than it benefits someone like me - have at it. Seems like a classic "cut off your nose to spite your face" response. Do the math sunshine. Sure I may be getting a smaller tax break by not donating but I'm still financially ahead at the end of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Are you still going on about this? When your only counter-argument to my post was "I didn't say poor, I said middle-class". Alright, switch "poor" for "middle-class" in my now cut-and-paste points from earlier and let's see what you have to say: 1) If you take out all your money in one calendar year from a mutual fund instead of TFSA, it's more your own fault for bad investment planning than it is some socialist plan but you're welcome to find a way to blame Trudeau for for your poor planning. 2) TFSA is not a right. Nobody is taking money *away* from you and taking giving it to the poor *(middle-class)*. You may have lost a tax loop hole (one that only benefits a very small portion of poeple), but to say that it's a socialist policy is a blatant lie. You clearly don't know how investing in a TFSA works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Suuuure. What sort of student job did you have that made you $40,000/year and allowed a full course load? Care to run us a budget? Please keep in mind when you do that I spent about 5 years as a lender in a university town (the same years you'd have been in school) and saw hundreds of student budgets for education borrowing applications. Let's hope the math doesn't get in the way of your inspiring story though... Nobody's penalizing you. They're just taking away a tax break that you never needed because your mommy and daddy looked after you while you were at school and beyond. My parents paid $0 for my education. Because you chose to attack me Personally, that's all I'll answer to your question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Why not just scan and the paste your T4's here, and then shut up about how much you'd like us to think you make, and move on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) You clearly don't know how investing in a TFSA works.I work in the industry but ok, school me. Tell me why you should be "entitled" to this tax loop hole and tell me why the future value of your 4500/year (in a mutual-fund) would have any material tax repercussions unless you pull out significant portions in short periods. This oughta be interesting. Edited October 25, 2015 by BC_chick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitops Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Bad critical thinking skills. Most people couldn't use up the $5000 TFSA limit (like the overwhelming majority). The increase, therefore, was 100% unusable. Use your brain. Try a little math. Consider how much after-tax income you need to actually be able to afford $10,000/y in your TFSA and then tell us who could make use of it, okay? Just try it. No, you're just struggling to keep up. When you go ad hominem, you are losing. You simply refuse to understand that you don't need $10,000 in after tax income to use a TFSA. You can put ANY amount up to $10,000. Your misunderstanding is illustrated by your example of a good which is indivisible, like a car. But this is not indivisible, it is divisible in any amount you want. Maybe we should just outlaw banks? Because after all, rich people can put more money in them, and therefore earn more interest. Back-peddle from what? From your sad attempt to assign deeper meaning to a colloquialism? From your statement. It is not mine to defend, you said it. Not as senseless as whatever you're trying to say here. That whole statement above is literally just verbal diarrhea. More emotion-driven ad hominem. Mhmm. I'm sure your personal struggles were just heroic. Point? My point was stated explicitly. I literally couldn't have made it any more clear. Some story about a Lucky Sperm? This is part where I exchange awkward glances with the other guests nearby. Edited October 25, 2015 by hitops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) When you go ad hominem, you are losing. You simply refuse to understand that you don't need $10,000 in after tax income to use a TFSA. You can put ANY amount up to $10,000. Your misunderstanding is illustrated by your example of a good which is indivisible, like a car. But this is not indivisible, it is divisible in any amount you want. Maybe we should just outlaw banks? Because after all, rich people can put more money in them, and therefore earn more interest. From your statement. It is not mine to defend, you said it. More emotion-driven ad hominem. Point? Some story about a Lucky Sperm? lol Classy. I've given up. I tried to engage in this again today, but I've decided to do what I decided to do, which is to give up. There is no sense in talking to people who don't believe that saving $10K is possible (to dump into a TFSA). Sure, most don't, and I agree, but just because others don't do it is a valid reason for some on here to not do so. And the audacity of some to ask members to post their T4 on a public forum? What am I, stupid? I offered already for those that doubt it to have me send an email to the mods from my work address which will bring an end to the skepticism and not one person has taken me up on that offer...let alone ask me to post my T4? I'm done on this topic. Edited October 25, 2015 by angrypenguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitops Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) I've given up. I tried to engage in this again today, but I've decided to do what I decided to do, which is to give up. There is no sense in talking to people who don't believe that saving $10K is possible (to dump into a TFSA). Sure, most don't, and I agree, but just because others don't do it is a valid reason for some on here to not do so. And the audacity of some to ask members to post their T4 on a public forum? What am I, stupid? I offered already for those that doubt it to have me send an email to the mods from my work address which will bring an end to the skepticism and not one person has taken me up on that offer...let alone ask me to post my T4? I'm done on this topic. It is not about trying to understand it. It is simply about being upset that others have something they do not, and wanting to exact some kind of pound of flesh for it. BTW I went to Tim Hortons today and got 10 timbits. But.....but......some people can only afford 1 timbit! Why oh why do we allow the injustice of Timbit sales to continue?!?!?!?!?!? Edited October 26, 2015 by hitops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 It is not about trying to understand it. It is simply about being upset that others have something they do not, and wanting to exact some kind of pound of flesh for it. BTW I went to Tim Hortons today and got 10 timbits. But.....but......some people can only afford 1 timbit! Why oh why do we allow the injustice of Timbit sales to continue?!?!?!?!?!? How dare you. You should have given 3 timbits to the person who could only afford one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron Young Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Upon reading most of this thread I have concluded that some people are just unwilling to help anybody that is not as fortunate as they are. My family lives on 100K a year we live in a modest house drive 2 modest vehicles we save very little obviously vacations are a luxury we can't afford. Having said all of that we are willing to pay a little more in taxes so that others living in poverty can live a little better. We donate to charity when we can, give to the food bank Ect,,,Ect. The outright mean spirited ranting's of some in this thread are disgusting to me and quite telling of the greed which permeates society today. If you are fortunate enough to be in the upper tax brackets you should feel it is your duty as a Canadian to help those that may need it via what really is a small amount of money to people making more than enough to live very comfortably in this country. It has been proven time and again that by raising up the poor and middle class the entire society benefits. Unfortunately way too many of the people in a position to help don't simply because they are greedy and have the me first and I'm better than you because I am in a higher tax bracket mentality which is detrimental to the good of society as a whole. So go ahead and take your toys out of the sandbox and go home simply because someone with no toys wanted to play with yours. We normal folks hope you sleep well at night and when you are at deaths door we hope your mean spirited ranting doesn't haunt you as you take your last breath. Me I want a clear conscience when I go I want to look back at my life and know I wasn't a greedy immature asshat who cared for nothing but myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Upon reading most of this thread I have concluded that some people are just unwilling to help anybody that is not as fortunate as they are. ---SNIP--- Greed? Edited October 25, 2015 by Charles Anthony [---SNIP---] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) How convenient to forget the tens of billions per year of income tax breaks delivered by Chretien/Martin back in the early 2000's. Anyone remember the 17% tax rate? Now 15% thanks to Chretien and then Martin. Anyone remember 26% starting around $30,000? And then 29% starting around $60,000? Yeah, well, the 22% rate was introduced and by 2005 we had rates of 15%, 22%, 26% and 29% at tax brackets considerably higher. And no more surtax. Anyone remember the basic personal amount being around $6,400? Yeah, for most of the 1990's thanks to Mulroney and then Chretien taking away full indexation of tax credits and tax brackets. Oh, looky, that was restored by Chretien and adjusted up. In other words, a single person making $200,000 in 1999 versus $200,000 in 2005 would pay almost $7,300 less in federal tax in 2005 (a 13% cut in federal taxes). If that same person was still making $200,000 today then the tax savings would now be $9,900 thanks to the indexing of the tax brackets and the basic amount tax credit (although some credit goes to Harper here as they did bump up the basic tax credit in 2007 by more than inflation). And then there were the tax cuts to corporations but I will spare you the details. IOW, taxes were cut lots. Just not the visible GST because for some stupid reason people remember when they pay 7% GST but have no recollection of paying 26% income tax when it is deducted on their pay stub. But, you know, facts..... ...like the fact Martin/Chretien et al illegally over taxed on EI and then made it impossible to get it, while reducing the amount of time on it if you were lucky enough to get it. to create surpluses. Those kind of facts? Or the fact that Martin/Chretein cut every service available including health education environment agriculture etc etc etc to create surpluses? Those kinds of facts? ...you know, those facts Edited October 25, 2015 by drummindiver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 ...like the fact Martin/Chretien et al illegally over taxed on EI and then made it impossible to get it, while reducing the amount of time on it if you were lucky enough to get it. to create surpluses. Those kind of facts? Or the fact that Martin/Chretein cut every service available including health education environment agriculture etc etc etc to create surpluses? Those kinds of facts? ...you know, those facts And what taxes were you proposing at the time to increase to finally slay the deficits of the era? Oh, and if you were not proposing further tax increases, then what spending, on top of what they cut, were you proposing to cut? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 And what taxes were you proposing at the time to increase to finally slay the deficits of the era? Oh, and if you were not proposing further tax increases, then what spending, on top of what they cut, were you proposing to cut? Sorry, you were espousing the wonders of Liberal tax cuts. These cuts were available due to the fact that the Liberals illegally overtaxed us. Then they raped all of the things taxes are collected for. Health care. Education. You get the drift. I've read your post several times, and it's more convoluted than who's on first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Sorry, you were espousing the wonders of Liberal tax cuts. These cuts were available due to the fact that the Liberals illegally overtaxed us. Then they raped all of the things taxes are collected for. Health care. Education. You get the drift. I've read your post several times, and it's more convoluted than who's on first. So nothing then .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 You were disputing why low-income people don't 'deserve' a tax break. If you had $20, it's difficult to give up $5 but if you have $500, it's not that difficult. That's the idea behind why low-income families deserve a tax-break more than high-income earners. By your logic, if you had $500, you would have to give $125. You think someone should pony up $125 instead of $5 because they worked harder to get ahead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Your struggles are 'less'??? If you make 200k and you have no children, you shouldn't struggle at all. Unless you think it's a struggle to make a decision whether you should buy a yacht or travel South America for a month. That's not a struggle. As someone else said, your $2000 more in taxes is peanuts compared to your takeaway but for someone making $30k, an extra $1000 is a lot. You really don't understand why they deserve the tax break more than you? In the words of Clint Eastwood, "deserves got nothing to do with it". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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