sharkman Posted October 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 I believe this is the point where the continual circular argument gets tedious. I could explain why Obama's actions have given Russia and Iran opportunity, and then you would repeat and I would repeat, but what's the point. I am not going to change your mind. I do not want to change your mind. Maybe you think Obama has been brilliant, I don't know. I will watch what happens WRT Russia and Iran in the ME and may update this thread as they continue to menace various enemies. Or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Syria started as a civil war from the Arab Spring and now it's just a joke. It's just one big global proxy war. Russia and Iran propping up Assad, US & Canada & the West supporting "moderate rebels", and other regional powers supporting whomever they fancy. All these different actors fighting to ensure an outcome that's best for them, no regard for what actual Syrians may want or what's best for them, no regard for self-determination. Ain't imperialism great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 I believe this is the point where the continual circular argument gets tedious. It's not circular, it's just a straight line of denial from cause to where we are now and on up ahead of us too. I could explain why Obama's actions have given Russia and Iran opportunity, and then you would repeat and I would repeat, but what's the point. Your point would be to conflate Obama's disasters with Bush's catastrophes and paint Obama as the bigger cause of all the problems. When we finally argue our way back to discussing Bush's catastrophe's you'd be conflating them with something even worse like...I don't know...Clinton's shot spots or something, in any case your point would be what it's always has been, denial. Then we'll keep arguing like this back to the Cold War, WW2...& 1... and on back through wars in 19th & 18th centuries to medieval times and deeper still through various ancient empires and the rise and fall of civilizations. My denial kicks in when justifications and apologies finally try to rest on foundations of evolution and our human nature is that we're just dumb animals enslaved to nature's will. This is the point I think the argument starts going circular, when questions about the wisdom of changing our nature arise. That greed is inevitable eventually arguing it's good...and that we shouldn't change what's served us so well for so long. If we did someone else wouldn't etc etc. So yeah, the point here is definitely denial and everyone is in it and your OP about some silly little point along a big silly line that stretches back and ahead of us like time itself is no exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 Syria started as a civil war from the Arab Spring and now it's just a joke. It's just one big global proxy war.So your solution is for the west to butt out and let the Russians and Iranians and Turks do whatever they what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 So your solution is for the west to butt out and let the Russians and Iranians and Turks do whatever they what? Case in point...if we butt out someone else won't. Now we're going round and round in circles. Butting out would solve the problem of being involved. Those problems would fall to the Russians and Iranians and Turks. How does their misfortune hurt us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 He pulled the soldiers out of Iraq, which sure later helped Isis. He threatened a response in Syria and then pulled back. I'm pretty sure he sent in a fleet and then pulled them back as well. He's been distancing himself from Israel's side since 2009. That all adds up to Obama leaving. Bush Jr did not create a power vacuum. I believe that Obamas job and priority is to do what is best for the USA. The ME might be a little different now if he continued to send troops into the contested areas but those body bags would now be coming home in loads. He has probably saved the lives of thousands of American soldiers through his actions (or non actions as you might see it). Would the situation be different. Probably. American military would be fighting and dying in a ground war against ISIS. To-day, Russians, Syrians, Iranians, Iraqis and Turks are dying in a ground war against ISIS. I think he has saved many American lives and done what is best for Americans. I hope that Harper takes the lead and does things that are best for Canada - which is to get our folks the hell out of there as soon as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 So your solution is for the west to butt out and let the Russians and Iranians and Turks do whatever they what? Theyre going to do what they want whether we butt out or not. And what we do or dont do should be based on whats best for Canadian taxpayers. If we are going to spend money on these ill-advised and poorly planned adventures in the middle east, then it should be shown that money is benefiting the taxpayer more than if we used it to build a bridge, or a hospital, here at home... or pay down some debt. This is all just money going into a hole that benefits nobody at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 C'mon dre, you know he'll just say that if we hadn't spent that money we would have suffered several attacks by now. A real pagan however would also complain about the amount that's wasted trying not too kill people in ways or numbers that might offend the more tender sensibilities of less pragmatic taxpayers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 So your solution is for the west to butt out and let the Russians and Iranians and Turks do whatever they what? The Turks apparently are on our side being part of NATO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Add Libya, Egypt and Yemen into Obama's results failures too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Not to mention Afghanistan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Heck, you guys might as well blame Obama for the overthrow of the Shah while you're at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Heck, you guys might as well blame Obama for the overthrow of the Shah while you're at it. Hey why not... some folks are blaming him for creating ISIL even though he was a community organizer in Chicago when the group origionated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) Yeah, the leader of the free world has absolutely no bucks stopping at his desk as he sends his military around the globe. He's as blameless as the driven snow. To quote one of my favorite lines from Fury, "Best job I ever had!" Edited October 18, 2015 by sharkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Yeah, the leader of the free world has absolutely no bucks stopping at his desk as he sends his military around the globe. He's as blameless as the driven snow. To quote one of my favorite lines from Fury, "Best job I ever had!" Nobody says hes blameless... hes more or less continued with the same failed foreign policy as previous presidents. Hes not the abject train-wreck that Bush Junior was, but thats not saying much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Not the train wreck? I'm sorry, I don't want to ruin your Sunday afternoon. Every try canned peaches and vanilla ice cream? It's one of my favorites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Not the train wreck? I'm sorry, I don't want to ruin your Sunday afternoon. Every try canned peaches and vanilla ice cream? It's one of my favorites. Obama was handed what was quite accurately termed "an agenda from hell" from the actual train wreck that was Bush. Two wars, bank meltdowns from underwater mortgages, and on and on. He has made some missteps yes, but he has recovered from it pretty well. Enjoy your peaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) No really. You have to try them. And you can't buy bargain brand canned peaches, most of them are produced in South Africa or China. The pollution, food handling and quality regulations are somewhat lacking there and it shows in lousy tasting peaches with hard or too soft fruit. Kind of a first world problem if you will. The only peaches I've had that are dependably good are Delmonte peaches canned in the USA, or house brands that are produced in the good old USA. Some Delmonte's are canned in South Africa. You have been warned. And while I'm at it, don't bother with bargain brand vanilla ice cream either. The gunk they put in that stuff is truly unhealthy. The good stuff goes on sale often enough, and the results are truly delicious. Peaches and ice cream, I bet Obama loves it too. Edited October 19, 2015 by sharkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) Nobody says hes blameless... hes more or less continued with the same failed foreign policy as previous presidents. Hes not the abject train-wreck that Bush Junior was, but thats not saying much. So lets get this straight, Obama is suddenly in a hurry sending our soldiers to a country that never invited him to do that and which already has the ISIS situation under control with help from Russia (who was asked to be in Syria), and Obama has no congressional approval? Obama is sending our troops to a sovereign country without its approval....Under law that is an act of war. Edited October 31, 2015 by socialist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Obama was handed what was quite accurately termed "an agenda from hell" from the actual train wreck that was Bush. Two wars, bank meltdowns from underwater mortgages, and on and on. He has made some missteps yes, but he has recovered from it pretty well. Enjoy your peaches. Sending troops into a sovereign country that has not requested aid from the U.S. and who has not attacked the U. S. constitutes an act of war against Syria and its ally Russia. We have just unofficially declared war against Syria without Congressional approval. Whats next from these politicians who flagrantly violate International and U.S. Constitutional law? American gun confiscation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Yeah, the leader of the free world has absolutely no bucks stopping at his desk as he sends his military around the globe. He's as blameless as the driven snow. To quote one of my favorite lines from Fury, "Best job I ever had!" Both CNN & Fox News are using the death of Sgt. Wheeler, who was the first American to die in Iraq since 2011 while engaging enemy combatants , as propaganda tool to justify 'boots on the ground.' The greenlight for the televised helmet camera raid, an exclusive to western media, was given to show the Iraqi government that the U.S. is serious about defeating ISIS, in light of the success of the Russian bombing campaigns.( 72hours= 13months); and also to counter the public relations nightmare Washington witnessed when Russia media brought the real truth of the happenings in Syria to the American living room. Already, these media outlets condone such an escalation. Their talking head analysts are expertly reconstructing Washington's narrative, while overlooking the fact that it was told to the American public that there absolutely wouldn't be any 'boots on the ground.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Heck, you guys might as well blame Obama for the overthrow of the Shah while you're at it. Putin slides a pawn forward, so Obama pushes his pawn; at some point throughout this entire escalation, the board will become restricted, where diplomacy is out the window and any move will led towards a global conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Add Libya, Egypt and Yemen into Obama's results failures too. Obama is putting boots on the ground to stand with ISIS. Now if Russia continues to bomb ISIS, they'll also hit American boots. Then Obama and msm press can then claim Russia is bombing Americans, setting the stage for outright war against Russia as American support for Russia bombing ISIS will turn. Then Obama will gain American support for war against Russia. In fact, Americans won't jut support it, they'll demand it. Win win for Obama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Sending troops into a sovereign country that has not requested aid from the U.S. and who has not attacked the U. S. constitutes an act of war against Syria and its ally Russia. We have just unofficially declared war against Syria without Congressional approval. Whats next from these politicians who flagrantly violate International and U.S. Constitutional law? American gun confiscation? Sending troops isn't the only act of war. Shooting missiles/bombs into another sovereign country's territory is an act of war. The US has been at war with Syria for a while now, as has Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Heck, you guys might as well blame Obama for the overthrow of the Shah while you're at it. The next POTUS will inherit the same garbage Obama did from the previous POTUS. It's the top military men that have the true power in the USA, not the POTUS. You now have perpetual war. Good for the weapons manufactures racking in billions while selling to both sides (when they can). The cost of the bomb that took out the Doctors Without Borders facility could have paid for that facility to operate for about 5 years. Money well spent I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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