Mentally Ill Patients, Not Guns Are Shooting Culprit

[On Guard for Thee]

What cells? Prison over crowding is a big problem in Canada.

Yes I guess the tough on crime thing has worked well to fill everything up.

[Shady]

please sir! The esteemed 'Ann Coulter' put a notice on that article... one you didn't respect by crediting it: "COPYRIGHT 2015 ANN COULTER"

cause... if she says it... it's gots to be true!

The stats are facts.

[Shady]

Aha, ow this is making a bit more sense. Thanks for pointing that out. I wonder if Shady "forgot" to credit the article because he knows what a flake she is in most peoples minds.

The stats are facts. Facts are stubborn things.

[waldo]

The stats are facts.

no! It wasn't from Breitbart! Again, you didn't source your "facts"... and you're not even acknowledging that in this reply? Not only that, you failed to even source, the source, within your post... somehow you manage to omit where Ann Counter drew her information from in regards the U.S..

surely, if you're going to quote Ann Coulter, you should acknowledge her in your post, yes?

[Wilber]

Yes I guess the tough on crime thing has worked well to fill everything up.

Maybe it has, crime rates are decreasing. Not that tough apparently, the prison population is less than 1/6th that of the US in prisoners per 100,000 population and less than the UK, Australia and New Zealand.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Wilber

[WestCoastRunner]

Maybe it has, crime rates are decreasing. Not that tough apparently, the prison population is less than 1/6th that of the US in prisoners per 100,000 population and less than the UK, Australia and New Zealand.

I would suggest you watch the HBO documentary 'Vice'. It looks at the high rate of incarceration of minorities and follows obamas visit to a prison. First president to ever visit a prison. One of his priorities is fixing the prison system in his last months in office. In fact it has just been announced that thousands of non violent prisoners will be released because the sentence doesn't fit the crime. It's a very good documentary. I highly recommend it.

[Wilber]

I would suggest you watch the HBO documentary 'Vice'. It looks at the high rate of incarceration of minorities and follows obamas visit to a prison. First president to ever visit a prison. One of his priorities is fixing the prison system in his last months in office. In fact it has just been announced that thousands of non violent prisoners will be released because the sentence doesn't fit the crime. It's a very good documentary. I highly recommend it.

I've heard of it and applaud it but it hasn't happened yet.

[eyeball]

Maybe it has, crime rates are decreasing. Not that tough apparently, the prison population is less than 1/6th that of the US in prisoners per 100,000 population and less than the UK, Australia and New Zealand.

What's our crime rate and what is it dropping by compared to these countries?

[Wilber]

What's our crime rate and what is it dropping by compared to these countries?

Don't know but if you don't think putting people in jail has any effect on crime rates, why have jails at all?

[WestCoastRunner]

Don't know but if you don't think putting people in jail has any effect on crime rates, why have jails at all?

I suggest you watch the documentary. Educate yourself on the prison and justice system. You are offering a blanket statement without knowledge.

[Wilber]

I suggest you watch the documentary. Educate yourself on the prison and justice system. You are offering a blanket statement without knowledge.

I wasn't making a blanked statement, I was asking a question. Care to answer it?

Edited October 12, 2015 by Wilber

[WestCoastRunner]

I'm wasn't making a blanked statement, I was asking a question. Care to answer it?

Because it's not a simple answer. Again you need to educate yourself first on the prison and justice system Why are you afraid to do so? Once you do that, then we can have a meaningful discussion.

Edited October 12, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[Wilber]

Because it's not a simple answer. Again you need to educate yourself first on the prison and justice system Why are you afraid to do so? Once you do that, then we can have a meaningful discussion.

I know it's not a simple answer I'm not afraid to do so and watching one documentary doesn't make one an expert. I realize there are a lot of people in jail who probably shouldn't be there. On the other hand, there are a hell of a lot who should be that aren't.

[Big Guy]

The USA continues to have answers on guns.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/holocaust-would-have-been-greatly-diminished-if-jews-were-armed-with-guns-u-s-republican-candidate-says

Ben Carson, one of the favorites in the Republican clan running for President of the USA, has stated that "Holocaust would have been ‘greatly diminished’ if Jews were armed with guns".

Now that is an interesting solution to world problems.

[On Guard for Thee]

The stats are facts. Facts are stubborn things.

C'mon Shady, Anne Coulter?

[Wilber]

The USA continues to have answers on guns.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/holocaust-would-have-been-greatly-diminished-if-jews-were-armed-with-guns-u-s-republican-candidate-says

Ben Carson, one of the favorites in the Republican clan running for President of the USA, has stated that "Holocaust would have been greatly diminished if Jews were armed with guns".

Now that is an interesting solution to world problems.

Another Tea Party historian.

[On Guard for Thee]

Maybe it has, crime rates are decreasing. Not that tough apparently, the prison population is less than 1/6th that of the US in prisoners per 100,000 population and less than the UK, Australia and New Zealand.

Crime rates in Canada have been decreasing for decades, including violent crime. However Harper's tough on crime has thrown a lot of pot users, for instance, behind bars were they would probably be fined and sent on their way previously. Again a waste of assets to simply appeal to the base to garner votes. And we get to pay the bills.

[eyeball]

I know it's not a simple answer I'm not afraid to do so and watching one documentary doesn't make one an expert. I realize there are a lot of people in jail who probably shouldn't be there. On the other hand, there are a hell of a lot who should be that aren't.

Not if there's a reason to believe that being too tough slows the rate at which crime drops in a society, hence my question. Who knows, being too tough may cause crime.

[eyeball]

In any case crime and incarceration rates have nothing at all to do with mental illness unless it's to conflate crime with mental illness, which is just stupid.

[WestCoastRunner]

I know it's not a simple answer I'm not afraid to do so and watching one documentary doesn't make one an expert. I realize there are a lot of people in jail who probably shouldn't be there. On the other hand, there are a hell of a lot who should be that aren't.

I didn't say anything about being an expert.

Here are a couple of articles you could review if you are not up on documentaries. They are written by Conrad Black, who would have an inside view of a Canadian in the American prison system. As much as many of us loathe Conrad Black for his arrogance, he does write with some experience of the American Justice system.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/conrad-black-americas-correctional-system-is-utterly-disgraceful-and-ours-seems-to-be-heading-in-that-direction

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/370815/prison-industrial-complex-conrad-black

[sharkman]

Do you think the gun lobby and its supporters would be OK with the state paying the billions it would cost to institutionalize these people and actually treat them? They would probably go the incarceration part. Anything other than take basic steps to see that the wrong people don't get firearms, but treatment, that would smack of socialized health care.

Isnt' that some kind of strawman argument? You didn't mention whether you agree or disagree with the idea that mental illness types with violent records or tendencies might need to be kept away from society. Instead you suggest that protecting society, something that governments have done since forever, should be pawned off on the "gun lobby".

So are you saying that it's a good idea with no money, or a bad idea with no money? Either way, it's going to cost a lot more to collect 300,000,000 guns to protect society than to take maybe a million deranged people off the streets.

[ReeferMadness]

I didn't say anything about being an expert.

Here are a couple of articles you could review if you are not up on documentaries. They are written by Conrad Black, who would have an inside view of a Canadian in the American prison system. As much as many of us loathe Conrad Black for his arrogance, he does write with some experience of the American Justice system.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/conrad-black-americas-correctional-system-is-utterly-disgraceful-and-ours-seems-to-be-heading-in-that-direction

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/370815/prison-industrial-complex-conrad-black

Black is hardly the first (or the best) to write on the excesses of the criminal legal system in the US. And I very much doubt he gave two craps before he wound up a guest for a few years.

[Wilber]

Isnt' that some kind of strawman arggetting You didn't mention whether you agree or disagree with the idea that mental illness types with violent records or tendencies might need to be kept away from society. Instead you suggest that protecting society, something that governments have done since forever, should be pawned off on the "gun lobby".

So are you saying that it's a good idea with no money, or a bad idea with no money? Either way, it's going to cost a lot more to collect 300,000,000 guns to protect society than to take maybe a million deranged people off the streets.

I said that the gun lobby will do anything but take basic steps to prevent the wrong people from getting guns. I didn't say anything about banning guns or confiscating them. Of course mental illness is an issue but it isn't about one or the other. If you don't do something about both, you are wasting your time.

The last thing the gun lobby is about is protecting society, no matter how much BS they spew.

[eyeball]

Either way, it's going to cost a lot more to collect 300,000,000 guns to protect society than to take maybe a million deranged people off the streets.

Where did this number one million come from? Are you talking about existing or new cases of mentally ill people? Are you sure it's only one million? One in five people will suffer a mental illness in their lifetime meaning many will suffer their illness long after they have accumulated their guns.

How do you intend to test gun owners on a regular basis for mental fitness? Who will register gun owners so that mental fitness certificates could be issued, States/Provinces or Federal governments? Who will pay for and build, maintain and staff the institutions, bureaucracies, hospitals and treatment facilities?

[Wilber]

I didn't say anything about being an expert.

Here are a couple of articles you could review if you are not up on documentaries. They are written by Conrad Black, who would have an inside view of a Canadian in the American prison system. As much as many of us loathe Conrad Black for his arrogance, he does write with some experience of the American Justice system.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/conrad-black-americas-correctional-system-is-utterly-disgraceful-and-ours-seems-to-be-heading-in-that-direction

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/370815/prison-industrial-complex-conrad-black

I know what Obama would like to do about the results of some the USA's over the top sentencing and I believe him. However, unlike Canada, the individual states have a huge say over who goes to jail in the USA, so I am not holding my breath.

I was the fourth person to respond to the OP and in doing so I was the first to question the wisdom of a country that incarcerates more people than any other, jailing even more without even trying to take some measures to keep firearms out of the wrong hands.

My comments on incarceration rates are accurate as far as the last data I could find. 2013. That year, our rate was no where near that of the other English speaking countries the most like us. But don't let that get in the way of the myth that Harper is trying to turn the country into a penal colony. I brought them up in response to On Guard for Thee bringing his dislike for Harper into every topic regardless if it has anything to do with Canada or not. For the record, I strongly believe in some of Harpers get tough on crime legislation but think other parts of it are misguided and motivated more by ideology and politics than reality. But when did legislation motivated by politics and ideology become solely the province of the Conservatives?

Edited October 12, 2015 by Wilber