On changing how Canadians vote

[The_Squid]

A sitting government is not going to assign opposition parties more representation on committees than the gov't gets! What naive hypocrisy... they won the election.

[cybercoma]

Do you understand why those complaints were largely non-existent until Harper got elected

Probably because more and more states are using it.

[jacee]

A sitting government is not going to assign opposition parties more representation on committees than the gov't gets! What naive hypocrisy... they won the election.

It's possible Liberals will be allowed to speak in committees and not just parrot and bob up and down and and stonewall all changes.

Remember when committees couldn't even correct typos in Conservative legislation because Harper decreed 'no changes' ... ever?

.

Edited May 13, 2016 by jacee

[poochy]

Its pretty apalling how nakedly some are wanting to have the system gamed in their favor. Harper spent a decade, even before being elected, being called every name in the book, and never even approached this level of alteration to our democracy. If he had changed it in someway that produced the magnitude of advantage the liberals are likely to give them selves, i shudder to think what the reaction from the 'democracy lovers' would have been. As it was, their government was constantly called illegitimate for having the same percentage of vote as the current, so legitimate liberal government, that they can completely change and game the system, without any complaints of ligitimacy from those same people. Its pretty clear, as it truly always was, who the real haters of democracy, who the real fascists are.

[waldo]

Its pretty clear, as it truly always was, who the real haters of democracy, who the real fascists are.

given the limitations/problems with FPTP, there is widespread bipartisan acceptance that electoral reform is required. To you, which alternative(s) to FPTP are in line with your apparent anti-fascist, pro-democracy advocacy?

.

[jacee]

Its pretty apalling how nakedly some are wanting to have the system gamed in their favor. Harper spent a decade, even before being elected, being called every name in the book, and never even approached this level of alteration to our democracy. If he had changed it in someway that produced the magnitude of advantage the liberals are likely to give them selves, i shudder to think what the reaction from the 'democracy lovers' would have been. As it was, their government was constantly called illegitimate for having the same percentage of vote as the current, so legitimate liberal government, that they can completely change and game the system, without any complaints of ligitimacy from those same people.

We'll then let's make sure it changes to suit us instead of politicians.

Let's make sure that the House of Commons reflects the proportions of us who actually voted for each party.

There are better forms of democracy.

.

[cybercoma]

Its pretty apalling how nakedly some are wanting to have the system gamed in their favor. Harper spent a decade, even before being elected, being called every name in the book, and never even approached this level of alteration to our democracy. If he had changed it in someway that produced the magnitude of advantage the liberals are likely to give them selves, i shudder to think what the reaction from the 'democracy lovers' would have been. As it was, their government was constantly called illegitimate for having the same percentage of vote as the current, so legitimate liberal government, that they can completely change and game the system, without any complaints of ligitimacy from those same people. Its pretty clear, as it truly always was, who the real haters of democracy, who the real fascists are.

Trudeau having absolute control of policy with 39% of the vote sits well with you?

[Argus]

given the limitations/problems with FPTP, there is widespread bipartisan acceptance that electoral reform is required. To you, which alternative(s) to FPTP are in line with your apparent anti-fascist, pro-democracy advocacy?

.

One approved by popular vote in a referendum.

[overthere]

A sitting government is not going to assign opposition parties more representation on committees than the gov't gets! What naive hypocrisy... they won the election.

You are right.

The committee is a charade. It has no purpose, except to quickly arrive at the predetermined result. Despite what Smallc claims, I don't think that a purported majority of Canadians voted for that at all. The NDP have a quite different view on what they'd like, and since the Liberals had no detail on what ';electoral reform' meant beyond broad homilies, one promise among hundreds- the Liberals didn't either.

But they do now.

I did not think it would come to this so soon, but I think the Liberals have now backed themselves into a corner. There has been a big backlash, and they are not ready for it. One of three courses of action are possible. They may back down on time lines, and leave the implementation to early in a second term. Ironically, by dismantling FPTP and bringing in ranked ballots they would have guaranteed that second term. The second option is holding a referendum. This option is less likely. Simply getting to a referendum question that is supported by enough of the House will be a Herculean task/nightmare. And any referendum is risky, which is why the Libs have opposed it relentlessly. A third possibility is to gain the support of another major party in hammering through the ranked ballots choice. They may have an opportunity with the NDP. The Libs would have to trade off plenty to get it, but the NDP may be in horsetrade mode. They are far from power and influence now and will want to change that. The Liberals could then claim 'consensus' and whip the changes through both Commons and Senate in record time.

I expect that if the Liberals continue with their current program on the elctroal reform House Committee, the three Conservative committee members will resign. The Liberals will have to fill the seats with their own members, for leave them vacant. The empty chairs will be much photographed if they do that..

Kabuki Theater on the Rideau.

[overthere]

given the limitations/problems with FPTP, there is widespread bipartisan acceptance that electoral reform is required. To you, which alternative(s) to FPTP are in line with your apparent anti-fascist, pro-democracy advocacy?

.

Cite required on your claim of wide nonpartisan acceptance of a requirement for electoral reform.

Things are not quite going according to plan, eh Waldo?

I smell the sweet taint of a lot of political capital being burned..... and perhaps no result at all......

[scribblet]

A sitting government is not going to assign opposition parties more representation on committees than the gov't gets! What naive hypocrisy... they won the election.

The hypocrisy is coming from a leader/party who promised to be more open, fair etc. etc., who promised to do things differently. This is not doing things differently, it's more of the same Liberal double standards. They deride a system which they claim is illegitimate so must be done away with, yet they use the same system to rig another one in their favour.

"If the Liberals want to demonstrate a real respect for the electorate, they should follow the B.C. and Ontario models, and hold lengthy, bipartisan consultations followed by a referendum."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/dear-mr-trudeau-why-are-you-blowing-up-our-voting-system-on-a-whim-and-a-hurry-up-timetable/article30003218/

[The_Squid]

more open and fair" does not imply holding referenda.

Referenda were never in the Liberal platform as far as I am aware. Why didn't the CPC gov't hold a referendum on their electoral bill?

A referendum also wouldn't work well for complex questions like this. The nature of this type of legislative change makes a referendum essentially useless.

[waldo]

There has been a big backlash, and they are not ready for it.

Kabuki Theater on the Rideau.

yes! Clearly, Rona... Paul Godfrey and his Postmedia minions are in a real tizzy... very theatrical, indeed! Again, where was the referendum for the Harper Conservatives "Unfair Elections Act"?

.

[waldo]

One approved by popular vote in a referendum.

don't cop out now! The MLW peeps are most interested in reading what FPTP alternative you prefer... you personally - your choice of alternatives.

wasn't it you who claimed the fix was in... that the Liberal party has expressed a preference towards a 'ranked ballot' like alternative? Didn't I ask you for a cite to align with your statement/claim?

.

[overthere]

yes! Clearly, Rona... Paul Godfrey and his Postmedia minions are in a real tizzy... very theatrical, indeed! Again, where was the referendum for the Harper Conservatives "Unfair Elections Act"?

.

Oh oh, there he goes again: BUT HARPER!!!!! You are going to strain your back moving those heavy goalposts all the time.

No, this is not going according to Trudeaus schedule at all. Speaking of a tizzy, did you see the panel on the National last night? Even stalwart Hebert of The Star noted that the electoral reform biz was floundering bigtime. Barton on Power and Poltics, another LIb stalwart, was basically laughing at the Liberal talking head who would not budge from rote repetition of his talking points, which were silly.

Not looking so good this morning, Waldo.

[scribblet]

more open and fair" does not imply holding referenda.

Referenda were never in the Liberal platform as far as I am aware. Why didn't the CPC gov't hold a referendum on their electoral bill?

A referendum also wouldn't work well for complex questions like this. The nature of this type of legislative change makes a referendum essentially useless.

It implies being more fair which this is not. The CPC did not propose major changes to our system that would fundamentally alter our Parliamentary system, there is no comparison.

A referenda would work very well, this is exactly the type of situation that requires one, after extensive public meetings and consultations with all parties, just as the provinces did.

Not to mention that Elections Canada needs two years to implement such a major change so it's not possible for this gov't to carry out necessary and fair cross country consultations in time for E.C.

Edited May 13, 2016 by scribblet

[PIK]

Listening to the minster ,she says women are to stupid to understand how to vote in our system, so it needs to be changed. She is a embarrassment and also shows how trudeau did not pick the brightest to be cabinet minsters. His 50/50 is not working.

[waldo]

Oh oh, there he goes again: BUT HARPER!!!!! You are going to strain your back moving those heavy goalposts all the time.

No, this is not going according to Trudeaus schedule at all. Speaking of a tizzy, did you see the panel on the National last night? Even stalwart Hebert of The Star noted that the electoral reform biz was floundering bigtime. Barton on Power and Poltics, another LIb stalwart, was basically laughing at the Liberal talking head who would not budge from rote repetition of his talking points, which were silly.

Not looking so good this morning, Waldo.

yes, pointing out the absence of a referendum for the Harper Conservatives 'Unfair Elections Act' is a most inconvenient truth for you. Perhaps the Liberals should have brought it forward buried in a Harper Conservative-like Omnibus bill, hey!

why yes, I did PVR the issues panel on the National last night and just watched it while chowing down my Capn'Crunch this morning! Seems to me the panel acknowledged change was needed... with Coyne also satisfying his Godfrey Postmedia overlord's anti-Liberal sentiments. I do believe Hebert spoke to an earlier point I made highlighting referendums typically result in the status-quo being returned. Must be why Rona/CPC proponents are so for it, hey! I do believe Hebert also laid out a path where she's calling for a more publicized/definitive statement of party positioning - considering 2 other party leaders, May and Mulcair, have both called for electoral reform... and neither have called for a referendum...

.

[waldo]

Not to mention that Elections Canada needs two years to implement such a major change so it's not possible for this gov't to carry out necessary and fair cross country consultations in time for E.C.

no worries - at the least, it plants the seeds of change for the second Trudeau/Liberal government to finish!

.

[waldo]

Listening to the minster ,she says women are to stupid to understand how to vote in our system, so it needs to be changed. She is a embarrassment and also shows how trudeau did not pick the brightest to be cabinet minsters. His 50/50 is not working.

uhhh... care to actually state what was said... specifically state it.

.

[?Impact]

"If the Liberals want to demonstrate a real respect for the electorate, they should follow the B.C. and Ontario models, and hold lengthy, bipartisan consultations followed by a referendum."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/dear-mr-trudeau-why-are-you-blowing-up-our-voting-system-on-a-whim-and-a-hurry-up-timetable/article30003218/

What happened in Ontario and B.C.? No wonder the Globe editorial, which clearly favours the status quo, wants a process that guarantees their own preference.

[PIK]

This will be the end of the country we all know and love.

[Smallc]

This will be the end of the country we all know and love.

Canada is far more than a voting system.

[dre]

This will be the end of the country we all know and love.

ROFLMAO.

Yeah! Representative government... Spoooooooky!

[jbg]

Canada is far more than a voting system.

Canada is not Europe. Britain made the mistake of joining Euroe and is now looking for a way out. Why should Canada leap from the frying pan into the fire?