On changing how Canadians vote

[Argus]

There has been some talk about this but I don't see an actual topic on what is certanly the most important issue in this election, by far. The promise by Liberals and NDP to change how Canada's government is created.

At present, as most are aware, each riding has a separate vote, and whoever comes first in that vote gets to represent that riding. Obviously, whichever party wins the most ridings has the first chance to form a government. If they win the majority of ridings, they are in charge. For most of Canada's history, one party has managed to win a majority of ridings and so we have had majority government most of the time.

The NDP and Liberals want to change this to a proportional representation type of election. Neither party has been clear on how this will work. One of the types the NDP have mentioned involves lists of party candidates. Feel free to correct me as I'm not expert in this, but as the party wins X percent of the vote across the country, it is awarded X percent of the seats in parliament, and it fills those seats by using its list, starting at the top.

Among the major problems with this style is that the new MP might not even come from the same province of the riding he or she is appointed to represent, probably knows little about them, and won't care much either. After all, it wasn't the people of that riding who elected him, so it's not those people he needs to take care of. He's a party man and it's the party he needs to take care of, because the party decides how high on the list he's placed, and thus what his chances of re-election are.

Trudeau appears to sort of favour a 'preferential voting' method, where the voters choose first, second and third choices. If the first choice doesn't win a majority, the second choices are added in. Unsurprisingly, this would likely benefit the Liberals the most, since they would probably be the second choice of both Tory voters and NDP voters.

Proportional Rep in Canada would give even more power to the larger provinces, and larger urban centres. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver between them have over 12.5 million people, for example, a third of the population. Anyone who doesn't think their votes would be far more important than whatever people in widely dispersed regions want or think or do or say is kidding themselves. The biggest victims of this would likely be the Atlantic provinces, who would, for all intents and purposes, pretty much cease to exist as far as the parties are concerned. Basically it would be southern Ontario and southern Quebec and greater Vancouver, and screw everyone else.

[angrypenguin]

Wouldn't the QCers hate any change? I seem to recall something about how they have 25% of the seats in the house and it wasn't representation by pop?

[Michael Hardner]

To add my major points on PR:

- The main intentions of these propositions is always the generic "fairness", which is subjective and not specific. No representational system is 100% fair, so to tout one as being "fair" is unfair, unless it means 100% direct democracy under the definition used.

- When specific goals are brought out, such as providing more representation to smaller parties who have significant support nationally, it should be noted that there are methods to do that without re-making our system of democracy with large-scale changes, the impact of which can not be known.

- I'm generally left-of-centre, but I think that right-of-centre voters need to have a voice. Canada has had two majority Conservative PMs since the 1960s, but with this system it seems that there would never again be a right-of-centre majority government. That seems unfair to me.

Overall, blowing up the system from the top down to see if it will be more "fair" seems like a radical and dangerous experiment. Many things could happen that we can't anticipate.

I would prefer more ways to reach out to individuals, and engender nonymous political discussions locally and with our representatives as a way to connect Canadians who actually want to take part in the system.

[Argus]

I have already expressed my dislike for the idea of going down a one way street without being able to see what's ahead. This is not something we can back out of if it turns out, as I suspect it will, to give us a series of unstable coalition governments in constant election mode, always afraid of making the difficult choices if they're unpopular since another election could be around the corner.

This has been presented to voters a number of times at the provincial level and rejected. That doesn't seem to be bothering its advocates, and the NDP, for one, has rejected any kind of plebiscite over the issue before it is implemented - even though they won't tell us the details before the election.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/jeffrey-simpson-majority-governments-may-soon-be-a-thing-of-the-past/article26635466/

[Michael Hardner]

One of the reasons that these plans have been rejected is the complicated nature of (some of) them.

In a society where the issues are so complex that the average citizen doesn't have time to research all of them, adding another layer of complexity doesn't help IMO.

[Argus]

Wouldn't the QCers hate any change? I seem to recall something about how they have 25% of the seats in the house and it wasn't representation by pop?

They will still get the same number of seats, and in fact will have more influence now since they have a tendency to narrow focus their votes in favour of a single party. That big pile of votes will now affect more than just their own ridings.

[waldo]

This is not something we can back out of if it turns out, as I suspect it will, to give us a series of unstable coalition governments in constant election mode, always afraid of making the difficult choices if they're unpopular since another election could be around the corner.

... and the NDP, for one, has rejected any kind of plebiscite over the issue before it is implemented - even though they won't tell us the details before the election.

just another flavour of the/your coalition boogeyman! Coalition government works well in many countries - how so? Hasn't the prevailing sentiment in Canada always been to, typically, favour legislation brought forward through minority governments... where bargaining/negotiation and accommodation/compromise rule the day over blind partisan politics? You're simply seeing the backlash to Harper's "politics of division and fear mongering"!

[Argus]

just another flavour of the/your coalition boogeyman! Coalition government works well in many countries -

And works horribly bad in many other countries. You forgot that part...

[waldo]

And works horribly bad in many other countries. You forgot that part...

ever the pessimist, hey!

.

[angrypenguin]

just another flavour of the/your coalition boogeyman! Coalition government works well in many countries - how so? Hasn't the prevailing sentiment in Canada always been to, typically, favour legislation brought forward through minority governments... where bargaining/negotiation and accommodation/compromise rule the day over blind partisan politics? You're simply seeing the backlash to Harper's "politics of division and fear mongering"!

I love how Trudeau and Mulcair love saying that Harper's politics of division...they're doing the exact same thing by saying that!

[eyeball]

And works horribly bad in many other countries. You forgot that part...

It works just fine too. You ignored that.

[waldo]

I love how Trudeau and Mulcair love saying that Harper's politics of division...they're doing the exact same thing by saying that!

that's rich! As you just said in another concurrently running thread:

Substantiate this with facts please.

by the by, why so angry... penguin?

[CITIZEN_2015]

I am not an expert on the subject in fact I don't know how either party is proposing to change the electoral system in Canada but what I do know is what we have is not fair or even democratic. I have posted about the shortcoming several times before and my concerns and issues.

My issues best demonstrated in last election that the conservatives receiving 39% of the vote formed a majority (wait this is not correct they received 25% of eligible votes as about 30 to 35% did not participate in voting as they did not like conservatives or any other parties, their policies or their leaders or all of above). In other words they form a majority by receiving only 25% support vote. In other words 75% of us did not like them. By forming a majority with only 25% of voters vote they dictate the rest of us (the remaining 75% who did not like or agree with them) how to live our lives by legislating the morality and their mandate was a 25% votes mostly by religious right. I don't consider this fair or democratic and I welcome any proposed change. I yet have to find time and read about the details of what Trudeau is proposing.

To make the matter possibly worse even this year they may receive about 32% of total votes (or only 20% of eligible votes) and form a government!!!!!.

Edited October 3, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[angrypenguin]

I am not an expert on the subject in fact I don't know how either party is proposing to change the electoral system in Canada but what I do know is what we have is not fair or even democratic. I have posted about the shortcoming several times before and my concerns and issues. My issues best demonstrated in last election that the conservative receiving 39% of the vote (wait this is not correct they received 25% of eligible votes as about 35% did not participate in voting as they did not like conservatives or any other parties, their policies or their leaders or all of above). In other words they form a majority by receiving only 25% support vote. In other words 75% of us did not like them. By forming a majority with only 25% of voters vote they dictate the rest of us (the remaining 75% who did not like or agree with them) how to live our lives by legislating the morality and their mandate was a 25% votes mostly by religious right. I don't consider this fair or democratic and I welcome any proposed change. I yet have to find time and read about the details of what Trudeau is proposing.

The Liberals loved it when the vote was split on the right prior to the forming of the CPC. It was like that for a LONG while, so complain all you want, finally the right can stand behind one party.

[CITIZEN_2015]

The Liberals loved it when the vote was split on the right prior to the forming of the CPC. It was like that for a LONG while, so complain all you want, finally the right can stand behind one party.

Yes extreme right elements in former reform party are now in the conservative party some even having high positions. It shows in their speeches, actions and their policies. Canadians though are smarter than that to elect them to another majority (you fool me once shame on you you fool me twice shame on me) and all the polls confirm that. October 20th we will win back our democracy and our country with a new government so celebrate now all you can as you won't get any more chances later.

Edited October 3, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[angrypenguin]

Yes extreme right elements in former reform party are now in the conservative party some even having high positions. It shows in their speeches, actions and their policies. Canadians though are smarter than that to elect them to another majority (you fool me once shame on you you fool me twice shame on me) and all the polls confirm that. October 20th we will win back our democracy and our country with a new government so celebrate now all you can as you won't get any more chances later.

Ha! Yeah, we'll see about that. A conservative minority is the most likely outcome. The fool me once, fool me twice comment...yeah, if the Liberals do get in, shame on you.

Edited October 3, 2015 by angrypenguin

[Michael Hardner]

I am not an expert on the subject in fact I don't know how either party is proposing to change the electoral system in Canada but what I do know is what we have is not fair ...

You illustrate my point above: "fair" used in absolute terms to promote a system that won't change the basic 'unfairness' of unproportionality in any representative system.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Ha! Yeah, we'll see about that. A conservative minority is the most likely outcome. The fool me once, fool me twice comment...yeah, if the Liberals do get in, shame on you.

A conservative minority likely will not last long either and would fall to a Liberal-NDP coalition and again democracy will be restored even in this case as the two parties represent 65%+ of total votes and likely over 50% of eligible voters. And please it is a debate don't make personal attacks (like shame on me stuff just because of my choice). Lets debate the issues related to thread instead.

Edited October 3, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[angrypenguin]

A conservative minority likely will not last long either and would fall to a Liberal-NDP coalition and again democracy will be restored even in this case as the two parties represent 65%+ of total votes and likely over 50% of eligible voters. And please it is a debate don't make personal attacks (like shame on me stuff just because of my choice). Lets debate the issues related to thread instead.

I was not attacking you. You brought up that saying, not me!

[waldo]

I yet have to find time and read about the details of what Trudeau is proposing.

A Fair and Open Government:

MAKE EVERY VOTE COUNT --- We are committed to ensuring that 2015 will be the last federal election conducted under the first-past-the-post voting system. As part of a national engagement process, we will ensure that electoral reform measures – such as ranked ballots, proportional representation, mandatory voting, and online voting – are fully and fairly studied and considered. This will be carried out by a special all-party parliamentary committee, which will bring recommendations to Parliament on the way forward, to allow for action before the succeeding federal election. Within 18 months of forming government, we will bring forward legislation to enact electoral reform.

The Liberals have promised that Oct. 19 will be the last election under the existing {FPTP} system. They have not settled on an alternative. It could be proportional representation along the German or New Zealand lines; it could be a single-transferable vote as used in Ireland; it could be a preferential ballot, as is used in elections for Australia’s lower house. Preferential voting does tend to produce majorities.

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau has spoken favourably about the preferential system, in which voters take the list of candidates and rank their preferences in order. But he altered his position to say that widespread public consultations should occur before a new system would be proposed in Parliament. He has repeated, however, that first past the post has to go.

.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Thank you very much Waldo. I will read the articles and see if what they promise would change our electoral system for better. Thanks again. It does certainly pays off big time to be a member of this board in many occasions.

Edited October 3, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[ToadBrother]

Trudeau appears to sort of favour a 'preferential voting' method, where the voters choose first, second and third choices. If the first choice doesn't win a majority, the second choices are added in. Unsurprisingly, this would likely benefit the Liberals the most, since they would probably be the second choice of both Tory voters and NDP voters.

There's no reason conservatives couldn't benefit from this system. I have posited that if some sort of ranked system, the Conservative Party would be wise to simply split it into two parts; a Progressive party where a lot of Red Tories and fiscal conservative types could go, and a more socially conservative party that would probably fit a lot of Reform types. In that case. The Progressive party would be very competitive to the Liberals, and the new Reform party would be, in many cases, second choice.

The same thing would likely happen to the NDP; a split between the more centrist elements and the more left wing socialist elements.

It would require shifting, but I'm sure all the major political factions would figure out how to maximize the likelihood of creating stable blocs in Parliament, which would form a coalition government if they got enough seats.

Proportional Rep in Canada would give even more power to the larger provinces, and larger urban centres. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver between them have over 12.5 million people, for example, a third of the population. Anyone who doesn't think their votes would be far more important than whatever people in widely dispersed regions want or think or do or say is kidding themselves. The biggest victims of this would likely be the Atlantic provinces, who would, for all intents and purposes, pretty much cease to exist as far as the parties are concerned. Basically it would be southern Ontario and southern Quebec and greater Vancouver, and screw everyone else.

There are just too many variations of PR systems to make these kinds of sweeping statements.

[Argus]

It works just fine too. You ignored that.

Ours works just fine. Many of theirs do not, and the fact neither 'leader' is willing to disclose exactly which form this new electoral system would take BEFORE we elect them is pretty telling.

[Argus]

Yes extreme right elements in former reform party are now in the conservative party some even having high positions. It shows in their speeches, actions and their policies. Canadians though are smarter than that to elect them to another majority (you fool me once shame on you you fool me twice shame on me) and all the polls confirm that. October 20th we will win back our democracy and our country with a new government so celebrate now all you can as you won't get any more chances later.

Hyperbolic drivel without substance.

There are extreme left elements in the NDP and nobody is whining about them. Chretien won majorities with less than 50% of the vote and no one suggested that was illegitimate. So did Trudeau. The lefties just had this desperate, almost animal rage that someone is in power that has political opinions different from their own.

[ToadBrother]

Hyperbolic drivel without substance.

There are extreme left elements in the NDP and nobody is whining about them. Chretien won majorities with less than 50% of the vote and no one suggested that was illegitimate. So did Trudeau. The lefties just had this desperate, almost animal rage that someone is in power that has political opinions different from their own.

Plenty of non lefties like myself deeply dislike the FPTP system. Andrew Coyne is a major advocate for change.

FPTP is terrible, can lead to ludicrous situations even at the riding level. While I certainly dislike party list systems, I can't see why a decent instant runoff system like STV or AV wouldn't work. Neither of these would lead to Nazis or Maoists in power, and even most PR systems require certain minimum percentages, so that even a more prominent fringe party like the Greens would be unlikely to benefit.

Besides, most parties use runoff voting, so why do they get a voting system not enjoyed by voters. Perhaps parties should be forced to use plurality voting, since it is such a great thing. I'd wager parties would love to be lead by someone who got less than 38% of the vote.